Good question. If one reads the "Apocrypha", there is never mention of Jesus taking a wife. There are lots of other issues, but not one concerning a continuing lineage of Jesus after the fact.
Jesus, sex and Mary Magdalen
- Thread starter Penguin
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Good question. If one reads the "Apocrypha", there is never mention of Jesus taking a wife. There are lots of other issues, but not one concerning a continuing lineage of Jesus after the fact.
kiwimac
God is NOT about Fear
Actually i would argue that there is good circumstantial evidence that Jesus was in fact married.
Let's hear the circumstantial evidence.
Anybody else got anything else to this thread before it plummets down to the bottom of the pile? I was rather hoping for a nice good old fashioned debate on this but it seems to be not a popular issue. Oh well never mind. Many thanks to those who did reply.
It is one of those many things that is left in limbo, burden of proof in this case is on those who wish to go against status quo and 2,000 years. For some this would be an issue, for many it is conversation, but the bottom line currently is that there isn't enough of anything to toss over current thought.
China Cat Sunflower
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Jesus, Mary, and Pinchme sat on a log. Jesus and Mary fell off, and who was left?
Chris
kiwimac
God is NOT about Fear
1: Jesus meets Mary in the Garden (post-resurrection) first thing he says is " Don't cling to me!" You don't say that to someone unless touch has been part of your relationship with them. Unmarried males and females did NOT touch in that culture.
2: Mary calls him "Rabboni" which can mean both, 'My master" and 'Husband', the two terms being interchangable in the culture.
3: For Jesus to have been an unmarried 'rabbi' would have been very unusual indeed in that time and culture.
flowperson
Oannes
Hi Guys:
I remember a scene in The Last Temptation of Christ where Willem DaFoe as Jesus and Barbara Hershey (yum yum...no wonder they named chocolate after her) as Mary Magdalen lay down and pressed the soles of their feet together and held that position for a while.
Anybody got any info on the cultural/traditional significance of that act ? I do know that more ancient beliefs held that women received spiritual energy through their feet, or at least that was a belief among ancient societies even older than those in Jesus' time. Could it have been an act signifying an eternal relationship that transcended their time ?
Just thinking out loud.
flow....
I remember a scene in The Last Temptation of Christ where Willem DaFoe as Jesus and Barbara Hershey (yum yum...no wonder they named chocolate after her) as Mary Magdalen lay down and pressed the soles of their feet together and held that position for a while.
Anybody got any info on the cultural/traditional significance of that act ? I do know that more ancient beliefs held that women received spiritual energy through their feet, or at least that was a belief among ancient societies even older than those in Jesus' time. Could it have been an act signifying an eternal relationship that transcended their time ?
Just thinking out loud.
flow....
Well, ok. But this is what John 20: says: "10Then the disciples went back to their homes, 11but Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus' body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.
13They asked her, "Woman, why are you crying?"
"They have taken my Lord away," she said, "and I don't know where they have put him." 14At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.
15"Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?"
Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him."
16Jesus said to her, "Mary."
She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher).
17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' " 18Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!" And she told them that he had said these things to her.
As far as unmarried men and women not touching, well Luke has a different take on the matter: " 36Now one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, so he went to the Pharisee's house and reclined at the table. 37When a woman who had lived a sinful life in that town learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee's house, she brought an alabaster jar of perfume, 38and as she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.
39When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner."
40Jesus answered him, "Simon, I have something to tell you."
"Tell me, teacher," he said.
41"Two men owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii,[a] and the other fifty. 42Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he canceled the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?"
43Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the bigger debt canceled."
"You have judged correctly," Jesus said.
44Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."
48Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."
49The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?" 50Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Finally, though true it was unusual for a Rabbi to be unmarried, it seems that Jesus did alot of things that were unusual for the time. In first century Israel(Palestine), women were considered second-class citizens, akin to slaves. The fact that they are mentioned as avid followers of Jesus is unusual – both that they would be allowed to follow him with his disciples, and unusual that the authors of Jesus’ biographies would mention their presence at all.
Apparently Jesus liked to think outside of the "box", regardless of what others thought.
Quote kiwimac:-
I think the term "clinging" would mean clinging to somebody emotionally, the memory of them and thinking about them all the time. Jesus wanted her to forget his execution and look to the new future. Clinging in this context has nothing to do with touch I feel, it's mental clinging. As for the points 2 & 3 Kiwimac I haven't got the experience to answer them. Quahoms answers are brilliant. Many thanks.
I think the term "clinging" would mean clinging to somebody emotionally, the memory of them and thinking about them all the time. Jesus wanted her to forget his execution and look to the new future. Clinging in this context has nothing to do with touch I feel, it's mental clinging. As for the points 2 & 3 Kiwimac I haven't got the experience to answer them. Quahoms answers are brilliant. Many thanks.
Not brilliant Penguin. I just recall what the bible says actually happened. kiwimac said he thought there was circumstantial evidence, and I found what I thought was hard evidence to counter the potential circumstantial.
I also know the possesive form of "husband" in Aramaic is "Her 'Gab-ra'", not "Rabboni". Her 'Gab-ra' can also mean "man" in a less possesive context. It seems to me that if Mary were indeed married to Jesus, and the relationship was as "passionate and sexually intimate" as some opine, then she would have used the intimate possesive form of the word "husband".
I liken it to this: If I thought my wife to be dead and lost, only to have her suddenly appear behind me, I wouldn't call her wife, or Ma'dam, or spouse of mine...it would be more like "BABY! YOU'RE ALIVE!!!"
Seems that if Mary and Jesus were married, and she realized He was alive and well, she'd have called Him "HER 'GAB-RA'"!!! And I doubt she would have left the scene to scamper off and tell everyone He was alive. Not at that moment, anyway...get my point?
v/r
Joshua
Is it correct that all the gospels were orginally written in Greek and any Aramaic versions we have of anything were actually translations from the Greek which are decades more recent than the oldest Greek texts found? Which basically makes any Aramaic discussion mute as we are playing word games like the babel fish here...
Well that is a horse of a different color...
I'm a bit confused now, it doesn't take much you know! All these different languages and meaning has confused me a bit. So are you saying gents please, putting faith/belief aside for a moment, that if you were betting men you would bet that jesus and mary were an item then? Somebody over the hundreds of years since the original texts were written could have made errors in describing things & terms in copying them. Perhaps they could have been told incorrect circumstances and placed them in the writings without knowing they would be controversial in the future. It goes back to the fantastic point Quahom made about disciples expected to leave their wives or families to follow jesus and then jesus himself having what he wanted (women etc) It just can't be correct that jesus would have no rules for himself but expect them to be enforced on his disciples. It would go against his morals and teachings. Many thanks.
Wil, the author quoted Mary's expression, exactly as she uttered it. I think it was to give the reader pause to reflect on the astonishment she must have felt, at the moment.
It would be like me writing about my friend from Quebec surfing with me on the North Shore of Ouahu, and seeing a 50 foot breaker for the first time. He simply mumurred "Mon Dieu..."
v/r
joshua
We're aruguing semantics, and nuances, Penguin. And you're correct of course, we might be getting a little too deep into the weeds.
v/r
Joshua
I'm looking for the place where Jesus told the desciples to leave their families and wives behind...
As per your request:
1. Luke 8:19-21
2. Luke 9:57-62
3. John 12:6
4. Mark 10:28
5. Mark 10:29,30
6. Mark 10:17-30
7. Matthew 13:44-46
8. Luke 14:26-33
9. Luke 12:51-53, Matt. 10:37, Luke 14:26
10. Matthew 10:38,39, Luke 14:26, John 12:25
11. Matthew 6:19-24
12. Matthew 6:25-33
13. John 13:34,35
14. Luke 6:46-49
15. John 3:36 ASV, Acts 5:32
16. 1 John 2:3,4
17. Matthew 28:18-20
18. Jude 1:3
19. Acts 2:44,45
20. Acts 4:32-35
21. Philippians 3:7-11
22. 1 Thessalonians 2:14
23. Luke 12:25,26
24. 2 Corinthians 5:14,15
25. Ephesians 4:16
26. John 12:24-26
27. 1 John 5:2,3
28. John 7:17
29. Matt. 13:44-46
30. 1 John 4:21-5:3
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Joshua