Guilt, An Invisible Pattern

[JosephM]

Point I'm trying to make is that Love has to based on something. In this case it is about God being Perfect in that Love. And we can say that God is Love because God is Good. But what can we base that Goodness on? Do we base it on our own idea of what Good is? When we think of God being Good, we have to think it is because there is nothing Bad in Him. But what is right and what is wrong? Now we are back to the moral code. Or rather THE Moral Code.

Now when one comes to terms of one's own life, we can therefore measure ourselves to that Moral Code. For if we are led by the Spirit, then we are led to that which is Good.

Coming full circle to the idea of guilt. I think a degree of guilt is necessary to induce change. We must have conviction in our own walk with God over what is right and what is wrong. If we don't see ourselves as needing change, then we won't change. As Jesus said, "They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick."

The Moral Code is merely the recognition of what is needed in our walk with God. It is merely a guide. As we submit areas in our life to God that we do not have power over, the Spirit will take us to where we need to be. We have to allow the Great Physician do His work in us.

Hi Dondi,

Perhaps, you have gotten more to your point here so that I understand where you are coming from. It seems to me that you believe Love has to based on something you call a Moral Code. Perhaps this is where we see things differently. To me, Love is complete in itself and is not based on a concept of man or any Moral Code. It seems to me that puts us again under a law which brings forth guilt and death.

The flesh or carnal mind is not capable of accurate judgment or measurement that it should decide how we measure up to a code. Only God is capable of such judgment or measurement. We are to reckon ourselves dead to the law and the devices of the flesh. 1 Cor. 4:3
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
Follow after Love and all things will fall in place. In my view guilt is not necessary as God's wisdom and awareness will suffice to keep one on the path.

Dondi, your point is well made and I acknowledge it as a valid view and one I do not seek to discredit. It is simply a view that I do not currently share in my walk with God. Perhaps many others may see it as you do. Regardless, Thank you for taking the time to contribute to this thread.

Love in Christ,
JM

 

[Dondi]

Hi Dondi,

Perhaps, you have gotten more to your point here so that I understand where you are coming from. It seems to me that you believe Love has to based on something you call a Moral Code. Perhaps this is where we see things differently. To me, Love is complete in itself and is not based on a concept of man or any Moral Code. It seems to me that puts us again under a law which brings forth guilt and death.

The flesh or carnal mind is not capable of accurate judgment or measurement that it should decide how we measure up to a code. Only God is capable of such judgment or measurement. We are to reckon ourselves dead to the law and the devices of the flesh. 1 Cor. 4:3
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
Follow after Love and all things will fall in place. In my view guilt is not necessary as God's wisdom and awareness will suffice to keep one on the path.

Dondi, your point is well made and I acknowledge it as a valid view and one I do not seek to discredit. It is simply a view that I do not currently share in my walk with God. Perhaps many others may see it as you do. Regardless, Thank you for taking the time to contribute to this thread.

Love in Christ,
JM

Regards, JM.

Perhaps I'm just trying to understand your idea of Love. It is such an abstract term, used in many different ways. Your use of the term suggests "agape" or unconditional love. In spite of ourselves, and inspite what we do, or fail to do, God Loves us. Of that I don't doubt, for despite what I do, I find that though I might feel guilty of some sin I commit, it amazes me that when I come humbly to God, I feel His Forgiveness, His Mercy, and His overpowering Love in my heart, mind, and soul. it is a cleansing that is beyond my comprehension and understanding why He would love me so. Yet the fact is, it is available.

What I'm talking about is the key in accessing that Love. Because even though God does Love us, it is not apparent until we come to that realization. And we cannot come to that realization until we acknowledge it in our own heart and mind. But what are we doing when we do humble ourselves to God? It is a surrender. It is acknowledgement that we aren't where we need to be. We haven't reached our ideal, our potential.

Paul wrote of this very thing:

"Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." - Philippians 2:12-14

Again, it is comparision of two things. What we are, and what we become. We're trying to reach the prize. But that comes with acknowledgement of who we are in Christ.

I guess I tried and failed to convey my point, for I am trying to stress that you and I are in agreement that this attainment comes not through the Law. I want to make that absolutely clear. It has to come through Love.

"Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David." - Isaiah 55:1-3

The table is set before us. We are invited to come and dine. It is free. It is grace. But the question is, are we willing to eat?

When we accept God's Love, we are accepting that Ideal. When we sup with God, the law is placed in our hearts. It is a transference performed entirely by God, but only by our willingness to receive it. It is unconditional because it is available. It is a matter of reception.

The quarterback has done his job when he throws the pass to his receiver, it is up to the receiver to catch it. The work of the quarterback is done once it is thrown.

If you celebrate Christmas, you will receive gifts from your loved ones. The package is already under the tree. It is already yours. But if you do not reach out to open it, then it remains under the tree. So long as it remains there, you cannot enjoy the gift. Your acknowldgement of the fact that the gift is yours demands some kind action of your part (faith without works is dead). Your faith needs activation (like when you call to activate your credit card).

This is not legalism, nor is it adherance to the law. It is grace in action.

 

[JosephM]

Regards, JM.

Perhaps I'm just trying to understand your idea of Love. It is such an abstract term, used in many different ways. Your use of the term suggests "agape" or unconditional love. In spite of ourselves, and inspite what we do, or fail to do, God Loves us. Of that I don't doubt, for despite what I do, I find that though I might feel guilty of some sin I commit, it amazes me that when I come humbly to God, I feel His Forgiveness, His Mercy, and His overpowering Love in my heart, mind, and soul. it is a cleansing that is beyond my comprehension and understanding why He would love me so. Yet the fact is, it is available.

Yes, it is abstract and 'unconditional' best describes it. It is as you know much better experienced than put into words which always seems to be inadequate.

What I'm talking about is the key in accessing that Love. Because even though God does Love us, it is not apparent until we come to that realization. And we cannot come to that realization until we acknowledge it in our own heart and mind. But what are we doing when we do humble ourselves to God? It is a surrender. It is acknowledgement that we aren't where we need to be. We haven't reached our ideal, our potential.

Yes, there must be a surrender to realize it.

(snip)

Again, it is comparision of two things. What we are, and what we become. We're trying to reach the prize. But that comes with acknowledgement of who we are in Christ.

Here is where understandings seems to be different unless I am not understanding your words. Initially, I looked at who I was at the time and what I wanted to become. I surrendered what I was and fixed my mind on that which was revealed to me. Now I no longer need to look at what I am to compare to what I wanted to become. I hold that abstract Love in my mind and allow God to finish what he had started. I reckon myself dead to the old creature. There is never a need to look back or measure where I am at. As my mind is locked on the abstract love that it cannot comprehend, the spirit daily transforms me to that image and does what the mind cannot do. Surrendering all thoughts that oppose love is my only function which is most every thought . On the otherhand, merely holding the 'state of being' (Love) that was revealed at the first is sufficient to inhibit any thoughts to the contrary. The rest is a function of God's spirit to perfect that. There then is no place for pride which breeds judging and measuring and brings forth guilt which brings on self inflicted suffering. Just one man's understanding to consider.

I guess I tried and failed to convey my point, for I am trying to stress that you and I are in agreement that this attainment comes not through the Law. I want to make that absolutely clear. It has to come through Love.

Yes, most assuredly.

Love in Christ,
JM

 

[Dondi]

Have you ever read Watchman Nee's "The Normal Christian Life"?

Much of what He says parallels what you are saying. He states that we must see ourselves "in Christ", as if it has already occurred.

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord." - Romans 6:4-11

Paul here is talking in the present tense. as though these things have already happened to the believer. We are dead to sin, dead to the Law, but alive in Christ. The greatest obstacle is in the reckoning. Reckoning ourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive in Christ.

Nee basically does a thorough analysis of the Book of Romans, which I am currently reading.

 

[JosephM]

Have you ever read Watchman Nee's "The Normal Christian Life"?

Much of what He says parallels what you are saying. He states that we must see ourselves "in Christ", as if it has already occurred.

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord." - Romans 6:4-11

Paul here is talking in the present tense. as though these things have already happened to the believer. We are dead to sin, dead to the Law, but alive in Christ. The greatest obstacle is in the reckoning. Reckoning ourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive in Christ.

Nee basically does a thorough analysis of the Book of Romans, which I am currently reading.

Hi Dondi,
No I have never read that book. I read very few books here. Concerning Romans, I wrote a ahort writing in 1981 that I posted here that might interest you. It was my then understandings concerning those writings in Romans as revealed to me by God at that time. Since that time understanding has become clearer but the truths remain the same.

Here is the link...

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/all-things-are-lawful-6087.html

Love in Christ,
JM

 

[Quahom1]

Below is a short writing of mine open for dialog concerning Guilt and its place in us. Feel free to comment or dialog. Your differing or supporting view is welcome and views expressed herein are for your consideration only.
JM

Guilt is an invisible pattern of the mind whether it is in the conscious mind, unconscious mind or both. It is present in most all sentient beings in degrees that range from very slight to extreme. Depending upon its intensity, guilt manifests itself in a wide range of destructive tendencies that include everything from depression, errors in choice, some level of abuse to the body, suicide and everything in between. Guilt causes unconscious selection of choices which lead to suffering as a payment for the guilt and in the worst case to self destruction. These manifestations are in a sense all self-inflicted by the choice of measuring or judging others. Understanding this helps to lift ones level of consciousness to a point that one can choose the positive over the negative to eliminate the cause of this phenomena.

To break free of this invisible pattern it is necessary to realize that which triggers and sustains this pattern within ourselves. If one realizes that we are all connected to one another and all of creation, then we will note that whatever we say, think or do to another, we are doing it to self.

As we go about our daily life, we are presented with an innumerable amount of choices. When someone is speaking to us we sometimes choose to analyze their motives or we choose to entertain preconceived opinions and thoughts that may or may not be accurate. Either way it is not applicable to this moment of now. We may be unconsciously measuring them in a way that creates separateness. In fact any thoughts we have about them that are not founded in unconditional love and peace is a form of measurement or judgment. We may be holding a thought either consciously or unconsciously that they have a problem or are wrong or incorrect in their way. In effect, by our belief, we have made a law by doing so in that we have pronounced judgment on self. If we now commit even a similar act, we are guilty ourselves; we have thus pronounced judgment on self creating unconscious guilt by our perceived belief. Our unconscious attachment to this guilt then attracts the accompanying patterns of manifestations of suffering and afflictions.

Most of us remain consciously unaware of the connection of events and resulting cycle of manifestations of this cycle of guilt that was brought on by our choice to judge or measure another. One must at all times choose unconditional forgiveness and love for all of creation including ourselves. How all this self inflicted suffering came about may be described differently by our choice of belief but the net effect is that it is self-inflicted and requires choosing the positive over the negative to break its cycle. Some call it karma and some sowing and reaping. All may have a slightly different perception or understanding of its workings. Either way, all thoughts and actions, whether one believes or not, creates patterns whether positive or negative. It is these patterns that manifest as degrees of pain and suffering or degrees of love and peace. Guilt is False and destructive and is not a necessary virtue to correct errors in judgments. Whereas, wisdom, understanding and increased awareness will suffice.

Love in Christ,
JM

Guilt has two fronts, imposed and self-imposed. Imposed guilt is to be discarded as quickly as it is imposed (it does not belong). The exception to the rule is guilt imposed legally and accurately (beyond reasonable doubt).

Self-imposed guilt is a different matter. There is an element of truth to the imposition of such. That is what must be dealt with. It can not be discarded, or ignored, or sherked. However, we are our own worst critics and judges...that also needs to be kept in mind.

v/r

Joshua

 

[cyberpi]

On law, love, and judgement: I find the golden rule to be a way of organizing the mind to learn from, to check one's potential actions, and to judge and learn from one's prior actions:

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

It seems to me this rule is a recipe for Love... it defines it. If a sin is prevented by considering it first then doesn't the pre-judgement prevent the sin and guilt altogether? So judging self with that foundation helps prevent guilt by preventing sin and fostering love.

It also seems to me that a lot of things are NOT lawful by the golden rule. For example, "Do it against your neighbor before he can do it to you." Or, "Try everything at least once against your neighbor." That would not be lawful. So I'm not going to agree with Paul on everything.

 

[Dondi]

On law, love, and judgement: I find the golden rule to be a way of organizing the mind to learn from, to check one's potential actions, and to judge and learn from one's prior actions:

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

It seems to me this rule is a recipe for Love... it defines it. If a sin is prevented by considering it first then doesn't the pre-judgement prevent the sin and guilt altogether? So judging self with that foundation helps prevent guilt by preventing sin and fostering love.

It also seems to me that a lot of things are NOT lawful by the golden rule. For example, "Do it against your neighbor before he can do it to you." Or, "Try everything at least once against your neighbor." That would not be lawful. So I'm not going to agree with Paul on everything.

cyberpi, I think you quite eloquently summed up what I've been trying to say in my last 5 posts. Love should be guiding us toward some direction, but we need some kind of map, else how do we make sure we are headed in the right path?

Yeah, we can talk all we want about how God is love and this unconditionally. But we are not unconditional beings. Therein lies the problem. Our duty is to return that Love back to Him and shed it toward others. We learn to do this by the teaching and conviction of the Holy Spirit in our hearts. He will reprove us of sin, so that we can make the right choices.

 

[JosephM]

Dondi, Cyberpi, Quahom1,

Thanks for taking the time to comment and share your views.

Love in Christ,
JM