End destiny of man and life in Buddhism.

[Susma Rio Sep]

Thanks, Vaj, for your patient response. Allow me to commend you for not answering my questions with in effect more questions by using cryptic language, as someone here.

No, I do not ascribe to cryptic language where the listener is left with the trial of finding out what exactly the speaker means.

If a speaker cannot use words to say what he knows, then let him use his experiences which experiences are also common to all people; but the trouble here is that some people claim to have experienced things others don't or haven't or cannot (according to the speaker -- but Susma says, how convenient).

About a cyclical universe or time or space or whatever, I don't think that is any ground for a beginningless and an endless time/universe; because that concept is arrived at by denying mentally a point of beginning and a point of ending; the reality is not necessary as mentally imagined. What we do know from experience is that everything has a beginning and an end, at least in one form.

But does getting anywhere any religion is supposed to get us to, does it have to be conflated with so much complex and complicated notions and systems?

Now, I am sure a genius like Einstein will conclude that no one knows what exactly is Buddhism, and the man have quotations endorsing Buddhism ascribed to him -- perjuriously; and he like who is that German philosopher, Nietzsche or Schopenhauer? would not know the Buddhism Western Buddhists now tell us what Gautama truly taught to be his kind of Buddhism.


Susma

 

[Susma Rio Sep]

Re: End destiny of man and life in Buddhism... No one knows any more Buddhism.

Thanks, Vaj, for your patient response. Allow me to commend you for not answering my questions with in effect more questions by using cryptic language, as someone here.

No, I do not ascribe to cryptic language where the listener is left with the trial of finding out what exactly the speaker means.

If a speaker cannot use words to say what he knows, then let him use his experiences which experiences are also common to all people; but the trouble here is that some people claim to have experienced things others don't or haven't or cannot (according to the speaker -- but Susma says, how convenient).

About a cyclical universe or time or space or whatever, I don't think that is any ground for a beginningless and an endless time/universe; because that concept is arrived at by denying mentally a point of beginning and a point of ending; the reality is not necessary as mentally imagined. What we do know from experience is that everything has a beginning and an end, at least in one form.

But does getting anywhere any religion is supposed to get us to, does it have to be conflated with so much complex and complicated notions and systems?

Now, I am sure a genius like Einstein will conclude that no one knows what exactly is Buddhism, and the man have quotations endorsing Buddhism ascribed to him -- perjuriously; and he like who is that German philosopher, Nietzsche or Schopenhauer? would not know the Buddhism Western Buddhists now tell us what Gautama truly taught to be his kind of Buddhism.


Susma

 

[chakraman]

Re: End destiny... What I mean by end destiny of man in Buddhism.

For Gautama is notorious, yes, notorious for skirting questions which for the rest of mankind even during his time and clime had been and are still today the most pressing, like is there a God? is there a self? he consigns all such most crucial queries of man to the dustbin, calling them in effect idle questions. And in that attitude he is totally and woefully mistaken, because unless he answers those questions his whole system of religion and philosophy of man and life and world view is without foundation, for people who are intelligent and critical and will not be put away by the facile assurance that important thing is to attend to the wounded man -- and stop there?

gathering up a few simsapa leaves in his hands the buddha said to the monks :"which are more numerous, the leaves in my hand or those in the trees overhead?"
"there are far more in the treess," replied the monks.
"such is the comparison betwween the truths i have realised and revealed to you and those that i have not revealed," said the buddha." those things that i have not revealed are not useful to the pure life and do not assist your spiritual progress. what i have revealed to you is the nature of unhappiness and how to overcome it, for these are truths that lead to nirvana."

"you have failed to give me answers to such questions, and it upsets me ...........
the buddha first admonished malunkyaputta for attempting to blackmail him. "did i ever say to you : ' come, malunkyaputta, lead the holy life under me and i will make plain such matters?'"
hello people thankyou for your welcomes, jase....

hi susma, i'm not sure being liberated from desire would be self deprivation. i think if its pleasure you seek you will find it, but that is a double edge sword. however to have completely understood desire may leave you in a state of constant joy, which dont sound to bad either. as for money, i dont think you can possess it, i think it posseses you and surely you dont want to be a slave to this or your senses.... i'm not a buddhist, jase....

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Susma,

thank you for the post

If a speaker cannot use words to say what he knows, then let him use his experiences which experiences are also common to all people; but the trouble here is that some people claim to have experienced things others don't or haven't or cannot (according to the speaker -- but Susma says, how convenient).

how would you describe what an orange tastes like to one that has never tasted it?

i've eaten many oranges but i cannot express this experience to anyone else via any verbal means that i am aware of.

About a cyclical universe or time or space or whatever, I don't think that is any ground for a beginningless and an endless time/universe;

i would encourage you to read Drs. Hawking and Turoks No Boundary Proposal for an understanding of how a universe can have no beginning and, of course, no end.

naturally, since time is a feature of the universe, speaking of such outside of the framework is rather nonsensical.

What we do know from experience is that everything has a beginning and an end, at least in one form.

common experience, however, is subjective through our interpetative lens. on the quantum scale, we see that phenomena can arise without a cause, quite strange feature of the universe, to be sure, but there it is.

But does getting anywhere any religion is supposed to get us to, does it have to be conflated with so much complex and complicated notions and systems?

i suppose that is more dependent upon the being that is trying to follow the path more than anything else. some beings enjoy ritual and formalized practice where others do not.

Now, I am sure a genius like Einstein will conclude that no one knows what exactly is Buddhism, and the man have quotations endorsing Buddhism ascribed to him -- perjuriously; and he like who is that German philosopher, Nietzsche or Schopenhauer? would not know the Buddhism Western Buddhists now tell us what Gautama truly taught to be his kind of Buddhism.


Susma

though we've dialoged for more than a year on this, it seems seems as if you do not understand that there are various Buddhist Vehicles and philosophical schools. why this is, i cannot say; other than, perhaps, you are wanting the Buddha Dharma to be a monolithic entity that has the same teachings for all beings, in all situations. unfortunately, this simply isn't the case and without really understanding this, i suspect that our conversations will continue along the same vein that they have thus far.

to be frank with you, it would be interesting to know if any of the Buddhists' responses to any of your queries on this forum have actually be accepted by you. i have the feeling that you tend to discount our replies for reasons that you have yet to share.

metta,

~v

 

[Susma Rio Sep]

Re: End destiny of man... and beating about the bush...?

to be frank with you, it would be interesting to know if any of the Buddhists' responses to any of your queries on this forum have actually be accepted by you. i have the feeling that you tend to discount our replies for reasons that you have yet to share. -- Vaj​

Dear good friend, Vaj., and forgive me for calling you good friend, for there be such kinds of people in the net who cannot say anything except in hostility, like many I have met in skeptics forums that when I address them conventionally as good friend they shoot back telling me that they do not know me -- even though I have been writing in the forum for weeks and months and perhaps a year's time... and they have standards for friends, etc.

Some nasty critters, such ones, and I have come across them several specially in skeptics forums, these guys can be worse than the most benighted fanatics of the most unreasonable belief systems. I consider myself also a skeptic but if I may, do I write or talk in that kind of a raucous snotty mood?

Even samabudhi does not talk like that, though he borders dangerously on the cliff. Joking only, samabudhi; you are okay.

What I want to say with that excerpt cite from you is that I am more for just talking here with guys who do care to talk with me, not into accepting from you guys or expecting from you guys, convictions from you or from me.

You once said that you could not or would not want to join or stay in some forums because there does not seem to be any hope of dialogue there; that is one line that has meant a lot to me: the dialogue is the thing: we talk and we listen, no need to try to convince each other, but the influence either way is possible and actual in the process.

What's Brian, owner and operator of this website *** forums, after with his time, labor, and funds invested in this endeavor? I think he is into gathering all kinds of materials for his what? doctoral dissertation in some subject on religion? I still have that question but now I am not excited to get at the answer.

Wait... here, he has an about preamble:

about - comparative-religion.com

This is a strictly non-commercial website, simply intended to serve as general internet resource for human thought in all its diverse expressions, and in a comparatively neutral manner. Do note that this will always be a work in progress, intended to be continually expanded upon with new and updated material.

comparative-religion.com promotes the principle of "knowledge shared is knowledge saved."

etc. etc. etc.

Well said, and kudos, Brian; but tell me, are you not into collecting all kinds of materials and views from all kinds of folks for some work on religion?

Now, back to what you and I are after in this forum: I am just after exchange for the sake of exchange; well, honestly, not only exchange but also and again honestly to express my cynical doubts over everything except the nose on my face as I look down on my face downward. Hahaha.

Hahaha, that also gets the goats of some guys in skeptics forums.

What is that described about Athens citizens who would get together in the Areopagos to exchange views and news, to hear anything new or at least differently conveyed? Flattering myself, that is what I am into as to the present stage of my 'intellectual' development. You have seen the light..? and also other guys here?

I envy you, be there so many kinds of lights and so many shades of them, that they seem and actually to be competing in diametrically opposite directions, as to cancel each other out, so that what? if you put them all together you get black which is no color but the absence of light? That true in the laboratory -- what I learned only in grade school and as I now if correctly remember.


How's your project of founding a monastery or sangha in your city, for guys like yourself to live in and meditate and rest your bones when you pass from this present rebirth, and not return almost certainly to your foundation again; when you as I read in Buddhist sites return right away in another rebirth by accessing a newly born baby -- and unless you have reached Nirvana like Gautama, you wouldn't know you were Vaj in the immediately preceding rebirth.

No? as a Western Buddhist you don't believe in that teaching; it's not Gautama's original or not intended for posterities teaching?


Susma

 

[Susma Rio Sep]

Re: End destiny of man... "mystery of the void."

I entered this phrase, western buddhism, in Google and found this hit, the first, among the "1,330,000 English pages for western buddhism," which attracted my interest:

fwbo :: The Friends of the Western Buddhist Order Organisation devoted to re-expressing the essentials of Buddhism for modern Western society. Includes teachings, history, and links to Centers worldwide.
fwbo :: The Friends of the Western Buddhist Order - 7k - Cached - Similar pages​

So I looked up in its search box the term, Nirvana; and it brought me to the page by its webmaster, a Western Buddhist, of a lengthy discourse on "What is Nirvana? at the end here is how he rounds up Nirvana:

Sometimes we just have to reverse our whole attitude. In the case of this great subject of nirvana, the abstract, ontological approach is of little use on its own. We have to start examining our own relationship to nirvana in the way we conceive of it. This is much more likely to bring us nearer to a deeper awareness, and thus to nirvana, than any amount of purely metaphysical or psychological disquisition. It may also prepare us for something even more profound and important than nirvana itself — the mystery of the void.

fwbo :: What is Nirvana?

So, finally, we know what Nirvana is at least for Westerners who work for Nirvana: the mystery of the void.

Am I then not wrong to say that Westerners are going to do a havoc of an adaptation of the Buddhism in Gautama's homelands in order to suit whatever Westerners are looking for in the mystery of the void, or in simple language, into a Nirvana-less Buddhism. Very interesting.


Susma

 

[Vajradhara]

Re: End destiny of man... and beating about the bush...?

Namaste Susma,

thank you for the post.

What I want to say with that excerpt cite from you is that I am more for just talking here with guys who do care to talk with me, not into accepting from you guys or expecting from you guys, convictions from you or from me.

interesting. you ask our views yet do not consider them. i cannot imagine that there is any benefit in such an approach, perhaps it is simply entertaining for you, i cannot say.

You once said that you could not or would not want to join or stay in some forums because there does not seem to be any hope of dialogue there;

i would tend to doubt that, Susma. it does seem, however, that there is no chance for dialog between us which seems to be directly due to your choice.

Now, back to what you and I are after in this forum: I am just after exchange for the sake of exchange; well, honestly, not only exchange but also and again honestly to express my cynical doubts over everything except the nose on my face as I look down on my face downward. Hahaha.

oh.

there are plenty of people that like to tear things down, Susma. it takes no real skill. if you are trying to get an more complete view of the Buddha Dharma it would seem that you would employ some different tactics. then again, one gets the impression that you are an expert rather than a beginner.

How's your project of founding a monastery or sangha in your city,

perhaps you have confused me with someone else, Susma. i am a lay person, firstly and secondly, there are several Sanghas already in the city where i live.

for guys like yourself to live in and meditate and rest your bones when you pass from this present rebirth, and not return almost certainly to your foundation again; when you as I read in Buddhist sites return right away in another rebirth by accessing a newly born baby -- and unless you have reached Nirvana like Gautama, you wouldn't know you were Vaj in the immediately preceding rebirth.

you have a strangely selective reading and memory retention, Susma. the recollection of previous arisings happens prior to the realization of Nibbana/Nirvana as is clearly explained in the Suttas.

No? as a Western Buddhist you don't believe in that teaching; it's not Gautama's original or not intended for posterities teaching?


Susma

what are you talking about? i practice the Vajrayana teachings, Susma.

metta,

~v

 

[Snoopy]

Re: End destiny of man... "mystery of the void."

I entered this phrase, western buddhism, in Google and found this hit, the first, among the "1,330,000 English pages for western buddhism," which attracted my interest:

fwbo :: The Friends of the Western Buddhist Order Organisation devoted to re-expressing the essentials of Buddhism for modern Western society. Includes teachings, history, and links to Centers worldwide.​

fwbo :: The Friends of the Western Buddhist Order - 7k - Cached - Similar pages​

So I looked up in its search box the term, Nirvana; and it brought me to the page by its webmaster, a Western Buddhist, of a lengthy discourse on "What is Nirvana? at the end here is how he rounds up Nirvana:



So, finally, we know what Nirvana is at least for Westerners who work for Nirvana: the mystery of the void.

Am I then not wrong to say that Westerners are going to do a havoc of an adaptation of the Buddhism in Gautama's homelands in order to suit whatever Westerners are looking for in the mystery of the void, or in simple language, into a Nirvana-less Buddhism. Very interesting.


Susma

Hi,

Outside of its membership there are I believe various concerns around the FWBO as I have alluded to previously; in terms of its ethos, publications and behaviour. e.g.>

"MANY BODIES, ONE MIND":MOVEMENTS IN BRITISH BUDDHISM

I wouldn't myself use them as a reference point unless I was only interested in amusing myself with arguing for arguing's sake, which I am not.

s.

 

[Susma Rio Sep]

Re: End destiny of man... on facts and opinions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep
What I want to say with that excerpt cite from you is that I am more for just talking here with guys who do care to talk with me, not into accepting from you guys or expecting from you guys, convictions from you or from me.​

interesting. you ask our views yet do not consider them. i cannot imagine that there is any benefit in such an approach, perhaps it is simply entertaining for you, i cannot say. -- Vaj

I wouldn't myself use them as a reference point unless I was only interested in amusing myself with arguing for arguing's sake, which I am not. -- Snoopy​

The way I see it more and more clearly is that in philosophy and in religion we are dealing with opinions as distinct from facts.

Here is what I understand to be facts, for example, the certainty as of and insofar as our present physical condition of time and place, if I and anyone does not hang on to the window sill he will drop from the window and fall down until he impacts on the ground or earth below unless he hits something material and strong enough to stop his downward plunge.

That is the world of facts and no one is exempt from it even if he should be a living saint like in Christianity or an enlightened Bodhisattva like in Buddhism, what? of the Mahayana school of Buddhism, or Gautama himself after having been acclaimed by his followers to have arrived at Nirvana while on this side of the grave if he were around now.

Everything else is philosophy and religion and in my view they all make up the world of opinions.

Now, I really enjoy discussing or just expressing opinions and honestly in terms of enjoyment the activity is entertainment for me. For being entertainment however I do not downgrade the activity, and I like to invite everyone here also to not consider entertainment to be waste of time or effort or whatever you count precious that should not be wasted.

I am glad that Brian, owner/operator of this website and forum, is of a different mentality in his current life history, than the one he had at the start of this website; because he can and does now tolerate my postings here, whereas in the early months of his website I guess he was in conflict what to make of my postings, being on the one side he did want to welcome and keep posters in the forum, on the other people were complaining about my kinds of postings -- so that I got suspended by one moderator (then I left for a self-leave of absence for more than a year or so because a poster from Turkey used some very bad language on me even just in jest -- at present I don't feel so bad anymore with people who have to resort to all kinds of namecalling instead of civil language, they have nothing of reason to convey but only passion of the most deplorable kind).

Thanks for your convictions all here who do have convictions, and I envy you; for my own part, I don't have any convictions except values like the old-fashioned one of sexual fidelity even though I am tempted to contrary deeds which but for the self-control and social and neighborhood invisible pressure I remain faithful to.

No, I am not here to convince people to accept my convictions, and I am sorry if I don't give people here the idea that I find their convictions convincing to myself.

I am here for the fun, and it is for me a most worthy activity and most noble one for mankind, for people who don't have to use up all their time to keep alive or to work for more and more money, power, fame.

And I truly am grateful to the people here, the ones I have met so far, are of a civil temperament, notwithstanding that they belong to even conflicting religious persuasions and convictions.

The worst peoples who are into namecalling instead of reasoning are posters with bigoted views, and the most appalling are self-proclaimed skeptics who claim to be scientific and rational but abuse science and reason in order to act like bullies who can't talk without shouting and cursing all the time, and if they cannot anymore rebut your opinion (even though you tell them that you are just inviting their opinions otherwise to yours), keep on badgering you for evidence and definition.

Advice to people here who go into skeptics forums, when you see them asking for evidence and more evidence and definitions and definitions of definitions, then it is time to just let them have the last word; and when you read any namecalling from anyone of these as bigoted skeptics as are bigoted racial fanatics, just don't even bother to reply to them.


Susma