Baha'i confused about Mohammad

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things. (Qur'an 33:40)

The Arabic term used is khatam an-nibiyyin (Seal of Prophets).

Precisely!

And as we've pointed out repeatedly, this says that Muhammad is the Seal of the nabi, or minor prophets!

It says nothing whatever about the Ras'ul, or major Divine Messengers, Who included Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and now Baha'u'llah (the Founder of the Baha'i Faith)!

So our point holds, and we're more than happy to agree to your assertion that Muhammad was the seal of the nabi! No problem whatever!

As has also been pointed out, there is a sense in which EVERY Ras'ul (major Messenger) is the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, the Alpha and the Omega, and the Seal! So again, not a problem.

Further, the Arabic word often translated into English as "seal" also has the meaning of "ornament" and so can simply be calling Muhammad the Ornament of the prophets. Nothing whatever about any sort of finish!

So I'd say we Baha'is are on firm ground on this one!

Best,

Bruce

 

[Ahanu]

So I'd say we Baha'is are on firm ground on this one!

I would not be so sure. . .

Could the Madhi have come? The Madhi will bring peace in the world, unite humankind in submission to G-d, there will be a great battle against sin. Do you see any evidence of that? This must be a process that takes a couple of centuries. . .

“And she [the law of Islam] brought forth a man child, Who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron.” This great son is the promised Manifestation Who was born of the Law of God and reared in the bosom of the divine teachings. The iron rod is a symbol of power and might—it is not a sword—and means that with divine power and might He will shepherd all the nations of the earth. This son is the Báb."

I could be wrong about Abu Bakr, but from a Muslim perspective, it may take more evidence. I suppose I am interested in what the Muslim's have to say

 

[Sean H.]

Bahaullah said:
'Salutations be upon the Lord of mankind..., He (Mohammed), through whom messengership (Risalat) and prophethood (Nabuwwat) have been completed (intahata)
(Bahaullah, http://www.bahaiawareness.com/ishr293.jpg).

'There will arise 30 imposters in my nation and each one of them will pronounce that he is a prophet, but I am the last in the line of the Prophets and no Messenger will follow me'
(Holy Prophet (pbuh))</B>

Regards,
Imran

Imran, whenever you tell us something, you need to quote it, and show us where to find it. Muhammad said he was the seal of the prophets (little p, nabi) not seal of the Prophets (Big P, Rasul).

Also strange is the Bahai contention to reject "Islamic" traditions and sources - the Imams from the Family of the Prophet or even from Imam Ali, who lived with the Prophet. But at the same time, they are happy to accept "Western" sources about a Prophet.

Regards

I'm not really understanding. Can you give us some examples and quotes to explain what you're saying.

 

[imranshaykh]

Imran, whenever you tell us something, you need to quote it, and show us where to find it. Muhammad said he was the seal of the prophets (little p, nabi) not seal of the Prophets (Big P, Rasul).

I'm not really understanding. Can you give us some examples and quotes to explain what you're saying.

If you noticed, I did give the quotation which came from Bahaullah. For the tradition from the Holy Prophet, you can look it up in Sunan-e-Abu Dawood, Kitab al Fitan. This incidentally is one amongst many which is narrated on the subject.

As regards my comment on the Bahai tendency to reject traditions stems from the comment that the Bab was the promised Mahdi of Islam. The Bab in fact does not fit the position of the Mahdi as per traditions. I have written extensively about this on my web site - you can refer to it if you wish. The Bahai response to this has been one in denial wherein ALL traditions about the Mahdi are rejected by them save those which are quoted ONLY in Bahai books and do not find a place any where else.

Do you have any comments about the statement from Bahaullah about the completion of Prophethood and Messengership of the Holy Prophet (pbuh)?

Regards
Imran

 

[Sean H.]

I'll be happy to do a little looking around, and I'll be able to do more as I have more time. A few things to go along with what I'm saying, you mentioned 2 quotes earlier.

Bahaullah said:
'Salutations be upon the Lord of mankind..., He (Mohammed), through whom messengership (Risalat) and prophethood (Nabuwwat) have been completed (intahata)
(Bahaullah, http://www.bahaiawareness.com/ishr293.jpg).

'There will arise 30 imposters in my nation and each one of them will pronounce that he is a prophet, but I am the last in the line of the Prophets and no Messenger will follow me'
(Holy Prophet (pbuh))</B>

I don't see any reference to what book, tablet or whatever Baha'u'llah is quoted to have said in the first instance. I also don't know if the second quote comes from Baha'u'llah. I also don't know where it comes from.

I think that to properly discuss this subject, we need to quote what we say, and not speak in generalities. Generalities have been used for centuries by people. It is my opinion that speaking in generalities and not investigating statements has been a great cause of ill for mankind. In my opinion, for example it is because many Christians speak in generalities that they believe in the trinity as opposed to one God. I want to avoid that in our discussions, so that we can get to the truth of the matter.

I think what you say though is important, and that it needs to be thoroughly searched for the truth to come out. To be honest, I'm glad you brought it up, and if you wish to continue this discussion I hope that you and I Imranshaykh can be friendly towards each other if not friends.

I'll have more comments about the seal of the prophets later as we discuss. Give me some time, I think I'll create a new forum topic.

As a side note, I'm not entirely sure that all traditions regarding the Mahdi are reliable. Many people have fancies about the return of Christ in the future that are not supported in Scripture (and are sometimes silly, in my opinion). I would say the same about certain Mahdi traditions. I would also point to the Jewish expectations about the coming of the Messiah and his attributes both then and at our current history.

Of course I haven't done a lot of investigation on this particular topic, and to do this properly we need to investigate and not just guess.

 

[Sean H.]

edit: I was just thinking. I don't see why Baha'u'llah has to validate every tradition ever written. Just as the Bible does not contain completely accurate events or sayings of Jesus, the same is true of the traditions and hadiths. It may just so happen that some are accurate and Baha'u'llah chooses to mention them.

It's interesting because there's a passage in the Writings in which Baha'u'llah quotes from the Bible.

Through the power of God and His might, I shall now relate certain passages revealed in the Books of old, and mention some of the signs heralding the appearance of the Manifestations of God in the sanctified persons of His chosen Ones, that thou mayest recognize the Dayspring of this everlasting morn and behold this Fire that blazeth in the Tree which is neither of the East nor of the West.....

.....

And in the third Gospel, according to Luke, it is recorded: "There shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars, and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; and the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, know that the kingdom of God hath drawn nigh."

...

Such is the text of the verses revealed in the past. By Him besides Whom there is none other God, I have chosen to be brief, for were I to recount all the words that have been sent down unto the Prophets of God from the realm of His supernal glory and the kingdom of His sovereign might, all the pages and tablets of the world would not suffice to exhaust My theme. References similar to those mentioned, nay even more sublime and exalted, have been made in all the Books and Scriptures of old. Should it be My wish to recount all that hath been revealed in the past, I would most certainly be able to do so by virtue of that which God hath bestowed upon Me of the wonders of His knowledge and power. I have, however, contented Myself with that which was mentioned, lest thou become wearied in thy journey or feel inclined to turn back, or lest thou be overtaken by sadness and sorrow and overcome with despondency, trouble and fatigue.
(Baha'u'llah, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 8)

It's interesting because Baha'u'llah doesn't say that the reported scriptures are completely accurate. However, he is content with quoting scriptures that we have rather than quoting sayings of Messengers (including Muhammad) that have been lost to history. In fact I would argue that this can only give credence to Baha'u'llah. Not all traditions and hadith are accurate, and in fact some flatly contradict each other.

But, once again we need to start at the beginning. Give me some time (I've got a big week coming up).

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

This is in part reiteration, but it's important to remember that we Baha'is reject ALL "traditional sources" as unreliable hearsay! This includes the Baha'i sources we call "pilgrims' notes" as well as any Islamic hadith not explicitly quoted in the Baha'i scriptures.

Our Faith is based on reliable scripture, supplemented by other scripture.

Specifially, we regard these scriptures as completely reliable:

• the Baha'i scriptures
• the Qur'an.

The Bible (both Jewish and scriptures) is not completely or literally accurate but remains spiritually accurate (IOW, to date what alterations and corruptions it has undergone have not significantly damaged its spiritual message).

Other scriptures have become unreliable over the centuries so that while we refer to them, they tend not to be all that reliable.

Hence our complete reliance on Baha'i scriptures and the Qur'an, and our continuing reference to the Bible as well.

Best regards,

Bruce

 

[imranshaykh]

I'll be happy to do a little looking around, and I'll be able to do more as I have more time. A few things to go along with what I'm saying, you mentioned 2 quotes earlier.

I don't see any reference to what book, tablet or whatever Baha'u'llah is quoted to have said in the first instance. I also don't know if the second quote comes from Baha'u'llah. I also don't know where it comes from.

I think that to properly discuss this subject, we need to quote what we say, and not speak in generalities. Generalities have been used for centuries by people. It is my opinion that speaking in generalities and not investigating statements has been a great cause of ill for mankind. In my opinion, for example it is because many Christians speak in generalities that they believe in the trinity as opposed to one God. I want to avoid that in our discussions, so that we can get to the truth of the matter.

I think what you say though is important, and that it needs to be thoroughly searched for the truth to come out. To be honest, I'm glad you brought it up, and if you wish to continue this discussion I hope that you and I Imranshaykh can be friendly towards each other if not friends.

I'll have more comments about the seal of the prophets later as we discuss. Give me some time, I think I'll create a new forum topic.

As a side note, I'm not entirely sure that all traditions regarding the Mahdi are reliable. Many people have fancies about the return of Christ in the future that are not supported in Scripture (and are sometimes silly, in my opinion). I would say the same about certain Mahdi traditions. I would also point to the Jewish expectations about the coming of the Messiah and his attributes both then and at our current history.

Of course I haven't done a lot of investigation on this particular topic, and to do this properly we need to investigate and not just guess.

The quotation from Bahaullah came from Ishraqat, page 293.

No generalities in the discussion. Lets all agree to discuss only from stuff which can be corroborated.

Is there any reason why you consider the traditions about the Mahdi as unreliable. Is it your own assesment of the traditions and if it is what is the basis for that. Is it because most traditions, and I mean most traditions about the Mahdi reject the Bahai concept. And it is just not about the Mahdi - most Islamic traditions on probably any issue are completely tangential to that of the Bahai Faith?

 

[imranshaykh]

edit: I was just thinking. I don't see why Baha'u'llah has to validate every tradition ever written. Just as the Bible does not contain completely accurate events or sayings of Jesus, the same is true of the traditions and hadiths. It may just so happen that some are accurate and Baha'u'llah chooses to mention them.

Dear friend:

Can you give an estimate - your own estimate - of how many traditions are reported in Islamic books. And how many were ever quoted by Bahaullah?

If you can tell us the answer and then if you can explain that why ALL the others (which probably run into thousands) are unreliable.

Also, just a friendly reminder - while ALL of the other traditions are considered "unreliable" by the Bahai Faith, they were reported much much before the Bahai Faith was born - just thought I would mention it so that there is no room for any conspiracy theory that traditions were manufactured only to falsify the Bahai Faith

 

[arthra]

There are traditions cited in the Baha'i Writings and we can check them... Particular by Imam Ali and some of the other Imams:

[SIZE=-1]Similar sayings from the Imáms--the blessings of God be upon them--have been[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]recorded and are widely known, and are embodied in books worthy of credence.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Blessed is he that perceiveth, and speaketh the pure truth. Well is it with him[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]who, aided by the living waters of the utterance of Him Who is the Desire of[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]all men, hath purified himself from idle fancies and vain imaginings, and torn[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]away, in the name of the All-Possessing, the Most High, the veils of doubt, and[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]renounced the world and all that is therein, and directed himself towards the[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Most Great Prison.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]-- Bahá'u'lláh, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 42[/SIZE]

What Bruce means is that we Baha'is are not guided by Muslim Traditions so much.. other than the ones cited in the Baha'i Writings and there is a Muslim forum here at Comparative Religion where this could be discussed.

Also we do not place that much authority on our own reports of sayings... Only the Writings of Baha'u'llah, the Bab (that have been authenticated) and Abdul-Baha are accepted.

- Art

 

[Sean H.]

The quotation from Bahaullah came from Ishraqat, page 293.

No generalities in the discussion. Lets all agree to discuss only from stuff which can be corroborated.

Is there any reason why you consider the traditions about the Mahdi as unreliable. Is it your own assesment of the traditions and if it is what is the basis for that. Is it because most traditions, and I mean most traditions about the Mahdi reject the Bahai concept. And it is just not about the Mahdi - most Islamic traditions on probably any issue are completely tangential to that of the Bahai Faith?

I don't know imranshaykh. Do most Mahdi traditions differ from what actually happened? Or do they not? Is it really all that important?

Like I said about generalities, I have an initial idea and you have an initial idea. But just talking about these ideas (generalities) does us no good if we don't actually show examples of what we're saying. So, let's do some investigation.

As I said earlier, we need to start at the beginning and at the root from which all these issues start. Luckily for us, we have a completely reliable and accurate book. Please, give me some time and I'll make a new forum thread.

Dear friend:

Can you give an estimate - your own estimate - of how many traditions are reported in Islamic books. And how many were ever quoted by Bahaullah?

If you can tell us the answer and then if you can explain that why ALL the others (which probably run into thousands) are unreliable.

Also, just a friendly reminder - while ALL of the other traditions are considered "unreliable" by the Bahai Faith, they were reported much much before the Bahai Faith was born - just thought I would mention it so that there is no room for any conspiracy theory that traditions were manufactured only to falsify the Bahai Faith

I don't see how giving an estimate would be helpful. I don't know.

Well, Bruce and Arthra mentioned something that I forgot about. Reported sayings of a Messenger are not given credence in the Bahai Faith. As mentioned earlier we often call them Pilgrim's notes. I think indeed that any tradition given this standard is not reliable. In reality there may be some truth to the tradition, that doesn't mean that the tradition is reliable though, and by reliable I mean by the standards of the Bahai Faith. The same standard applies to us though, and I think that's important.

In my opinion, I do not think that the number of traditions bears an impact on anything. Nor in my opinion do I think that the length of time that these traditions has an impact on truth either. If they're unreliable, they're unreliable.

In my opinion, it's perfectly fine that Baha'u'llah quotes some traditions and doesn't quote others. It simply shows that some of the signs Muslims were looking for happened to be correct. I do not feel, in my opinion, that Baha'u'llah has to corroborate or come in a form that satisfies every tradition, given the fact that traditions are inherently unreliable since they are reported sayings recorded many years after Muhammad's death.

As I said earlier though, let's do some investigation together, but let's start at the beginning, please give me a little time.

 

[Sean H.]

Bahaullah said:
'Salutations be upon the Lord of mankind..., He (Mohammed), through whom messengership (Risalat) and prophethood (Nabuwwat) have been completed (intahata)
(Bahaullah, http://www.bahaiawareness.com/ishr293.jpg).

'There will arise 30 imposters in my nation and each one of them will pronounce that he is a prophet, but I am the last in the line of the Prophets and no Messenger will follow me'
(Holy Prophet (pbuh))</B>

The quotation from Bahaullah came from Ishraqat, page 293.

Thanks for telling me where it is supposed to come from. For the first quote. I've done a search but the phrases and words said to be in Ishraqat are not there. The words Salutations does not appear. Lord of mankind only appears in the following quote

Turning Our face to the right, We beheld what the pen is powerless to describe; nor can it set forth that which the eye of the Lord of Mankind witnessed in that most sanctified, that most sublime, that blest, and most exalted Spot.

Messengership and prophethood are not mentioned in th passage at all. Neither is the word completed.

I also did an Ocean search through all of the Bahai Writings to look for a passage like the one you mentioned and found nothing at all. I think that whoever gave you that quote has a vendetta against the Bahai Faith and is making things up. The full text of Ishraqat is here Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 101-134

I looked at that second quote you gave about 30 imposters. I did a Qur'an Search and looked around some Hadiths but could find no such quote. In fact I've seen that quoted a few times, yet not no one ever says where it comes from.

Anywho, I do not want to post in this thread anymore. As I said multiple times, we need to start a new one and go from the beginning. Once again, please give me some time. I do not want to post here anymore, it's all cluttered and we need to start from the beginning.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Imran, you need to give a COMPLETE citation for the quote in question so we can look it up properly!

I've checked the Baha'i Reference Library (online at Baha'i Reference Library), but the Ishraqat there is on completely different pages from the page you specified, so at the very least you're looking at a completely different book!

Please specify:

• book author
• book title
• page number
• the exact number of the Ishraq being quoted.

Thank you.

Please note that the site you're referring to is an anti-Baha'i site and therefore untrustworthy for matters like this.

Further, citations of stuff not in English are simply useless for most of us.

Bruce

 

[imranshaykh]

There are traditions cited in the Baha'i Writings and we can check them... Particular by Imam Ali and some of the other Imams:

[SIZE=-1]Similar sayings from the Imáms--the blessings of God be upon them--have been[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]recorded and are widely known, and are embodied in books worthy of credence.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Blessed is he that perceiveth, and speaketh the pure truth. Well is it with him[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]who, aided by the living waters of the utterance of Him Who is the Desire of[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]all men, hath purified himself from idle fancies and vain imaginings, and torn[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]away, in the name of the All-Possessing, the Most High, the veils of doubt, and[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]renounced the world and all that is therein, and directed himself towards the[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Most Great Prison.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]-- Bahá'u'lláh, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 42[/SIZE]

What Bruce means is that we Baha'is are not guided by Muslim Traditions so much.. other than the ones cited in the Baha'i Writings and there is a Muslim forum here at Comparative Religion where this could be discussed.

Also we do not place that much authority on our own reports of sayings... Only the Writings of Baha'u'llah, the Bab (that have been authenticated) and Abdul-Baha are accepted.

- Art

Can you please clarify:

What does Bahaullah mean when he says "books worthy of credence". This is indeed an important quotation for finally we can understand which books are considered worthy of credence by the Bahais and we can see which traditions of the Imams are enclosed therein.

Since this quotation came from Bahaullah so books by Shoghi Effendi and Abdul Baha are excluded for they (the books) were not present when Bahaullah made the comment. Or for that matter any other Bahai book for all books came after Bahaullah except those by the Bab

Also, it is not one book (ref Quran). It is many books for the word quoted is in plural. In any case, the Quran does not contain the traditions of the Imams.

Finally on this point, the tense used is the past tense - so Bahaullah must be referring to books which were recorded before him and not to those which would come in the future.

As regards the Bab, you have made it clear that there are some books of the Bab which are authenticated - who authenticates these books and where can these books be found.

Regards,

 

[imranshaykh]

Imran, you need to give a COMPLETE citation for the quote in question so we can look it up properly!

I've checked the Baha'i Reference Library (online at Baha'i Reference Library), but the Ishraqat there is on completely different pages from the page you specified, so at the very least you're looking at a completely different book!

Please specify:

• book author
• book title
• page number
• the exact number of the Ishraq being quoted.

Thank you.

Please note that the site you're referring to is an anti-Baha'i site and therefore untrustworthy for matters like this.

Further, citations of stuff not in English are simply useless for most of us.

Bruce

It is sad that most of you cannot understand the word of Bahaullah in the language in which it was revealed. The book is in Arabic - the translator can choose to ignore standard translation guidelines and given the quote in question, I am not surprised that he chose to.

Please look up the book in Arabic - it is original hand written form and not typed in English - get someone to translate it and let me know if the translation differs from the one quoted by me. The page number is that of the book in Arabic.

Of course if one wishes, one can always look the other way and believe that this quote never existed. As regards the web site, I find it strange that just because it is an "anti-Bahai" web site, it is already labelled as "unreliable" without even checking the credentials of the quote from the book in the language in which it is reported.

Regards,

Regards,

 

[arthra]

Sorry I can't really clarify at this time what is meant when Baha'u'llah wrote about books worthy of credence... It may refer to some of the collections of sayings attributed to Imam Ali in the Nahjul Balaghah but can't say for sure...doubtless you've read that.

I think the topic here though was dealt with some time earlier..

- Art

 

[imranshaykh]

Sorry I can't really clarify at this time what is meant when Baha'u'llah wrote about books worthy of credence... It may refer to some of the collections of sayings attributed to Imam Ali in the Nahjul Balaghah but can't say for sure...doubtless you've read that.

I think the topic here though was dealt with some time earlier..

- Art

Thank you for your candid confession. But given the sensitivity of the issue for us Muslims, we should seek some source - naturally in this case a Bahai source to understand. Does the UHJ have any view in this matter?

Now that we know that there are some traditions in "books worthy of credence" which are accepted by Bahaullah, we should, rather we must, try and understand which books they are and read what it meant within them.

Regards,

 

[arthra]

Thank you for your candid confession. But given the sensitivity of the issue for us Muslims, we should seek some source - naturally in this case a Bahai source to understand. Does the UHJ have any view in this matter?

Now that we know that there are some traditions in "books worthy of credence" which are accepted by Bahaullah, we should, rather we must, try and understand which books they are and read what it meant within them.

Regards,

You yourself can ask the Reseach Department at the World Center and inquire..

secretariat@bwc.org

- Art

 

[imranshaykh]

You yourself can ask the Reseach Department at the World Center and inquire..

secretariat@bwc.org

- Art

Thanks, I will.

 

[Friend]

It seems that I am running around in circles, because The Seal of the Prophets has also been discussed before.

http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/bahai-ananda-marga-900.html



I would like to point out that this person is Abu Abdillah, the sixth Imam, or Sadiq. I am getting this information from the index of the Kitab-i-Iqan.



Plus, this is confirmed in the book "Islam's first Great General" by Richard A. Gabriel near the end and is mentioned by Karen Armstrong in her book "Islam" on page 25, which says that Abu Bakr made it into a political issue after Muhammad's death to make sure that people understood that Muhammad is the last of the prophets due to the riddah prophets. Just wanted to clear that up.

Peace In!

Hi

those are not Islamic confidence sources


Thanks