The Love of God

Are we not all workers of iniquity?

Yes and no. Theses a great pardox within the Christian, for he is both a new creation in Christ and counted with all of Christ' righteouness. Yet at the same time, he exist as a sinner who sins but only saved by grace. (Romans 6 and Romans 7 comes to mind concerning this).

There are two groups here, the righteous and the wicked. the wicked are those who haven't turned their heart to God, the righteous are those who have. God does not hate them without reason, for those that commit evil are those who have a mind to in the first place. God is trying the children of men, for He seeks those who are seeking Him. This is not an arbitary choosing. It is based on our willingness to love God.

The only reason why a sinner loves God is because he is made willing. Or, as Ralph Erskine paradoxically puts it, the man is saved "with full consent against his will;" that is, against his old will he is saved. But he is saved with full consent, for he is made willing in the day of God's power. The only reason any are righteous, is because of God's grace in election:

"Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah how he pleads with God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars; I alone am left and they are seeking my life!” But what was the divine response to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand people who have not bent the knee to Baal.” So in the same way at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if it is by grace, it is no longer by works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace."
-- Romans 11:3-7

God's election is unconditional and based not on the merit of any sinner, nor on the supposed choice that God foresaw that a sinner would make, but entirely on the grounds of God who shows mercy on equally guilty sinners (Romans 9:12). So all that said, yes there are two kinds of people spoken about: The Righteous - those who are saved by grace and who will give God all the glory in Salvation, and those who are unrighteous - unregenerated sinners who are left to do what their free wills want to do.

God abhors the heathen nations becuase they are committing evil. But God makes provisions even in OT times for any Gentile who desire to follow the God of Israel. Look at the example of Rahab. Look at Ruth. Both are from heathen nations, yet God redeemed them.

Great observation! God does choose to save gentiles in the OT and its not because of some good in them, its again on God's mercy. Look at Jesus' words in 4:16-30. Jesus is reading from Isa.'s scroll and they love him at first, as noted in v22. Then Jesus begans to use 2 stories from their OT scrolls to illustrate God's sovereign unconditional choice in election and they become angry and want to kill Him. Anyone who is ever saved is saved wholly on God's grace. If any of us did anything to deserve it, it wouldnt grace but on works. Moreover, it would give the one saved reason to boast, which God will have None of - He'll get all the glory. The only reason why some repent and believe is because God has been pleased to give them those gifts (faith and repentence). God's sheep will hear Jesus' voice through the preaching of the gospel. Remember, Jesus said..."you dont believe because you are not my sheep" and not you arent my sheep because you dont believe. Read John 10:25-30 and answer me this question:

Does hearing and believing make you a sheep or do you hear and believe beacuse you are a sheep?
Again, it is the wickness that men commit that God hates. You will notice that in this verse that God says, "I will love them no more", which is very telling, for it implies that God loved them up until that time. In other words, God's mercy had been extended as far as He could with these rebellious people. But they refused to turn from their wickness.

I tototally agree! I think you're not understanding what Im saying. Sorry if I have trouble explaining this tough subject. But the truth is, people should come. God said "Come, why will you die?" "Come and dont harden your hearts," etc. Jesus cried over Jerusalem and said "Come, I want to gather you, etc." Yet NONE was coming except those whom God gives grace. The truth is, EVERYONE knows that there is a God and that we need to come to Him because we've broken His laws. Everyone knows this! The heathen in Afarica who cuts down trees and uses half to burn wood and the other half to make an idol KNOWS that that the tree was lifeless and that He shouldnt worship it. The rich educated man in American KNOWS that evolution is a fairytail for grownups, yet he continues to surpress the truth in unrighteouness because he does NOT want to submit to Jesus. Creation and Conscience alone can testify to the fact that there is a God. Everyone is without excuse before God. So again, God gives us - everyone, a chance to come (as to be fair) eventhough he knows none but the elect will come. And He saves some because if he didnt, not only would none come, but he wouldnt be revealed for the loving God that He is.
 
Imagine for a moment that you are a father to a dozen kids. You have tried your best to instill on them you moral values and raise them right. Yet, there are only two of them who end up doing right and the other ten turn wayward. As a merciful father, you desire see what you can do to provide salvation, but you decide that only five of you wayward children will get saved. So you force this salvation on those five you've chosen and leave the rest to self-destruct. No matter what these remaining wayward five do, they are not getting saved, for you have foreordained it. They are not the elect. But you decide to love the other five, so whether they like it or not, they are getting saved. For they are the elect.

Do you see the fallacy here?

What did Jesus say about our Heavenly Father?

"And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" - Luke 11:9-13

Even I can see that as a human father, I would want all my children to be saved. I have no pleasure in seeing my children ruining their lives. And the fact is that I would love my children no matter what they did. And as much as they would grieve my heart, I would try and seek for their their best, pray for their return, and, like the father of the Prodigal Son, always have my arms open to recieve them again.

And if this passage is any indication, then God ought to have more love for His children than I do. Therefore God should love all His children.

The problem lies not with God, but with His children. God will do everything to save us. God loves everyone. But it is we who refuse to return to that Love.

Did the father of the Prodigal Son have supernatural influence to make him come back? Or did the Prodigal Son return of his own accord?
 
Silas, I think you're supposition that God does not love everyone contradicts some of the stuff in your first post. If Jesus only died for the believers, then what was the point of the whole thing? The believers already believed, and I assume seeing some guy die on a cross didn't change much for them. If God can't love everyone just because they don't worship Him, then His love is not unconditional is it? And if, as is quoted above, He stops loving people after a point, then His love is not really eternal either.

And even though kosmos (assuming this is the word they use) has more than one definition, I think it's clear in the context that they mean the whole world or universe, with the other definitions presumably being derived from this meaning.
 
Imagine for a moment that you are a father to a dozen kids. You have tried your best to instill on them you moral values and raise them right. Yet, there are only two of them who end up doing right and the other ten turn wayward. As a merciful father, you desire see what you can do to provide salvation, but you decide that only five of you wayward children will get saved. So you force this salvation on those five you've chosen and leave the rest to self-destruct. No matter what these remaining wayward five do, they are not getting saved, for you have foreordained it. They are not the elect. But you decide to love the other five, so whether they like it or not, they are getting saved. For they are the elect. Do you see the fallacy here?

First of all, God does force salvation on anyone. Do not image that the elect saint is draged kicking and screaming to Heaven. The Holy Spirit makes the sinner willing and the sinner sees Christ to be the precious jewl that He is. Its called "effectual calling." Seconly, election hurts no one. Sinners choose in and of their free wills not to deny self and follow Jesus. They choose to go to hell. You must first understand the sin and the power it has over sinners to understand unconditional election. Sinners are willling slaves because their wills are in bondage to sin. Its the conseqence of the fall.

What did Jesus say about our Heavenly Father? "And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" - Luke 11:9-13

First thing first, look at who Jesus is talking to. Thats my first point. Second, look at every scripture that tells us to come. For every one that says "come" there are two that says we cannot, e.g., Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized" (Acts 2:38) versus, "unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (Jn. 3:3) or, Repent therefore and be converted" (Acts 3:19 versus, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" (Jn. 6:44) or, Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely." (Rev. 22:17) verus, "For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly." (Rom. 5:6) etc. Its plane to see that God commands us to come eventhough He knows we will not and cannot. He's not being disingenous, but instead teaching something - namely, man's unwillingness to not come.

Even I can see that as a human father, I would want all my children to be saved. I have no pleasure in seeing my children ruining their lives. And the fact is that I would love my children no matter what they did. And as much as they would grieve my heart, I would try and seek for their their best, pray for their return, and, like the father of the Prodigal Son, always have my arms open to recieve them again.

Amen! God does want everyone to come to Him even though he elects only some. That much is evident from scripture. Why? Because God knows that none would come, so he saves some. Scriptures are so clear. Im surprised that there is a debate between freewill and predestination at all. Here's a good ariticle to read here:

And if this passage is any indication, then God ought to have more love for His children than I do. Therefore God should love all His children.

Amen. But since God is holy and does everything for His own glory and for the sake of His own name (even saving people - 2 Samuel 7:23, Isa. 48:9-11, etc.), He permits that some be lost. Why? Because if He doesnt elect, none would be saved. God's election is design to save people to the priase and glory of His grace.

The problem lies not with God, but with His children. God will do everything to save us. God loves everyone. But it is we who refuse to return to that Love.

I totally agree! Thats why God elects some. Who chose Abraham - God or Abraham? Who chose Noah, Noah or God? Who chose Moses or David? Them or God? Who chose the Apostles, them or God? Who chose you, God or you? If it be God, does the Bible say it was on your foreseen faith or because God gave you faith and chose you to believe and be conformed into the image of His son. Thats the question. I believe the latter. God chooses to save some by grace alone through the faith alone, which He gives them, and in Christ alone, who is been made the propeitation for our sins.

Did the father of the Prodigal Son have supernatural influence to make him come back? Or did the Prodigal Son return of his own accord?

Good question. Before I answer, notice the brother of the prodigal son who was with the father left and never come back. The save ones (sheep) sin of their own accord, but always come back and not only with/in faith, but with godly sorrow. Jesus is our Savior and High preist who interceeds for His sheep. The Father ALAWAYS answers the Son's prayers. Jesus said in scripture that He ONLY prayers for His Sheep - the Ones the Father has given to Him from out of the world (John 17:9 - Read all of John 17), and because of it, they repent and keep the faith as noted in Luke 22:31. The ONLY reason any Christian repent and come back to the Father is because of Jesus' prayers and because the Spirit of God in us who both does the willing and working in us to bring about God (Phil 2:13). Salvation is from start to finish ALL of God, thats why He gets ALL the glory. Its amazing grace that any are saved!
 
moseslmpg said:
Silas, I think you're supposition that God does not love everyone contradicts some of the stuff in your first post. If Jesus only died for the believers, then what was the point of the whole thing? The believers already believed, and I assume seeing some guy die on a cross didn't change much for them. If God can't love everyone just because they don't worship Him, then His love is not unconditional is it? And if, as is quoted above, He stops loving people after a point, then His love is not really eternal either.

And even though kosmos (assuming this is the word they use) has more than one definition, I think it's clear in the context that they mean the whole world or universe, with the other definitions presumably being derived from this meaning.
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Let me clarify something here. I did not wish to imply that God stops loving people, for His Love is eternal. But I do think there is a point when God turns them over to their sin, as indicated in the example of Romans 1:24-26:

"Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:"

"He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy." - Proverbs 29:1

Often we see God grieved at the nation of Israel, even to the point that He was ready to just wipe them out, save for the intercession of Moses. And that is the thing that we have hope in as far as the salvation of our loved ones, that as long as someone is interceding for them, God will have mercy.
 
If Jesus only died for the believers, then what was the point of the whole thing?

To pay for their sins. God is way too holy to let sin go by (Rom. 3:25 and many, many others). Jesus is the propeitiation or scapegoat for God's chosen people, who is from out of every nation, tounge, and tribe. In other words, Jesus came to live a perfect life, which is imputed to the sinner's account, and then He died a perfect sacrifice, whereby all the sinner's sins may be imputed to Jesus and have Him pay their sin bill, as it were. The the trade has been made: Sinner's get Jesus' righteouness and are justified before God, and Jesus' pays for their sin and justify God's righteouness and Holiness. This was the reason the Word was manifested into flesh - to fulfill the duty of the 2nd person of the Godhead - to pay for sin.

The believers already believed, and I assume seeing some guy die on a cross didn't change much for them.

None believed. God chose from the same group of wicked sinners some to display His mercy and grace, and left the rest to their own choices to display His justice and wrath. Much like this: Suppose you and I were in jail for stealing. The jailer comes to me and says, "aye Silas, the governer has chosen to give you mercy, you are free to go." Who do I have to thank? No one but the governer, thats who. Who do you have to blame for being jail. No one but you, thats who. Its the same way with sinners. Elects have no one to thank but God. Nonelects have no one to blame but themselves. So you should ask: "How do you know you are elect?" When you hear the gospel, that a Holy God who demands all sins be paid for, sent His beloved Son to suffer and die in sinners place. If you repent and believe and continue till then end of your life - you are an elect.

If God can't love everyone just because they don't worship Him, then His love is not unconditional is it? And if, as is quoted above, He stops loving people after a point, then His love is not really eternal either.

Exactly. God is NOT all Loving, nor is He obligated to love anyone. God is Three times Holy and ALL of His perfect attributes flow from His Holiness. Since God by nature is reqiured to be Holy, I am VERY suprised that He loves any of us sinners at all! I feel like those dudes in scripture who say..."What is man that you should be mindful of us?" What amazing Love and Grace! I wish that ALL who hear the gospel would believe!

And even though kosmos (assuming this is the word they use) has more than one definition, I think it's clear in the context that they mean the whole world or universe, with the other definitions presumably being derived from this meaning.

Yes Kosmos is world. World is used of unbelievers, believers, whole universe, etc. In context of John 3 and especially v 16, its speaking of those born again, believers, etc.
 
Silas, can I give my view of God's Love? Gods Love to me is unconditional, and for all who choose it over the lusts of the flesh. I view it as an adoption process. God calls all for adoption through his Spirit, which was made manifest in Christ, but in order for us to recieve, we must first choose to be adopted and embrace his Spirit, which is Love. Surly there is more to God than Love, but I believe Love is the core of his essence, Holiness, and Justice.

Many would have you believe that his Love is exclusive and only for those whom put faith in Jesus, But Jesus was inclusive: 9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

You stake your claim in an exclusive dogma, while Christ himself is not willing for any to perish. I beleve the truth is that Gods love is for all who choose to embrace it. We are all called, but few accept that calling, and many resist God's all encompassing Love. We are none more special than another, we are all human, and when you catagorize, and attempt to limit Gods Love, you limit self, and the Love God wants you to embrace and extent towards your fellow man...

God is not an intellectual pursuit, imo. He deals with the heart, and he knows the heart of man. It is by his Grace that any are saved, but that Grace comes by way of embracing his Spirit...


Love,
 
Silas said:
First of all, God does force salvation on anyone. Do not image that the elect saint is draged kicking and screaming to Heaven. The Holy Spirit makes the sinner willing and the sinner sees Christ to be the precious jewl that He is. Its called "effectual calling." Seconly, election hurts no one. Sinners choose in and of their free wills not to deny self and follow Jesus. They choose to go to hell. You must first understand the sin and the power it has over sinners to understand unconditional election. Sinners are willling slaves because their wills are in bondage to sin. Its the conseqence of the fall.
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God forces salvation on anyone? I'm assuming you meant God does NOT force salvation on anyone. But then you turn around and say that the Holy Spirit makes the sinner willing. You say that the sinners choose to go to hell. But if you understand the scriptures, we are already sinners on our way to hell. The choice is already initially made. The choice comes in calling on the name of the Lord for salvation.

I do understand the power of sin. We, in and of ourselves, cannot save ourselves. However, that does not preclude us from the ability to seek help. God throws the lifeline out into the drowning sea, but we have to grab hold of it, so then God can pull us back in.

And I've never heard of the term "effectual calling". Is that a biblical term?

First thing first, look at who Jesus is talking to. Thats my first point. Second, look at every scripture that tells us to come. For every one that says "come" there are two that says we cannot, e.g.,
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Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized" (Acts 2:38) versus, "unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (Jn. 3:3) or, Repent therefore and be converted" (Acts 3:19 versus, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" (Jn. 6:44) or, Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely." (Rev. 22:17) verus, "For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly." (Rom. 5:6) etc. Its plane to see that God commands us to come eventhough He knows we will not and cannot. He's not being disingenous, but instead teaching something - namely, man's unwillingness to not come.
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Repent, yes. That is our response to the call. Then we are converted. we don't come on our own stregnth, but if we are willing to repent, then his power is affected.

You make absolutely no sense when you say that God commands us to come even though he knows we will not and cannot. There is a big difference between being willing and being able. The point that we are not able apart from the Spirit of God, I whole heartedly agree with. But God leaves it up to us to heed the command.

Amen! God does want everyone to come to Him even though he elects only some. That much is evident from scripture. Why? Because God knows that none would come, so he saves some. Scriptures are so clear. Im surprised that there is a debate between freewill and predestination at all. Here's a good ariticle to read here:
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Why are you surprised at this. This debate has been going on for centuries. Did you ever think that it might be God's will for us to have the capacity to decide whether or not we are willing to choose Him. that is freewill. if we don't have free will in that regard, then our love to Him is contrived and disingenious, for if He makes us love Him, then it is not love at all, but compulsion.

You ever hear of the saying, "If you love someone, set them free. If they come back they're yours; if they don't they never were."

Amen. But since God is holy and does everything for His own glory and for the sake of His own name (even saving people - 2 Samuel 7:23, Isa. 48:9-11, etc.), He permits that some be lost. Why? Because if He doesnt elect, none would be saved. God's election is design to save people to the priase and glory of His grace.
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"And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nations and their gods?" - 2 Samuel 7:23

Keep in mind, Israel was chosen for the purpose of bringing Christ into the world as Savior. This is a promise way back to Abraham, indeed way back to Eve in Genesis 3:15, in which through Abraham's seed, all the nations of the world will be blessed. When you refer to Israel as being God's elect, it is in this purpose that they are elected, not salvation. Not all of Israel were saved, for there were those that rebelled, by choice.

I totally agree! Thats why God elects some. Who chose Abraham - God or Abraham? Who chose Noah, Noah or God? Who chose Moses or David? Them or God? Who chose the Apostles, them or God? Who chose you, God or you? If it be God, does the Bible say it was on your foreseen faith or because God gave you faith and chose you to believe and be conformed into the image of His son. Thats the question. I believe the latter. God chooses to save some by grace alone through the faith alone, which He gives them, and in Christ alone, who is been made the propeitation for our sins.
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Again, see my comments above about the election for the purpose of bringing Christ into the world, not for the purpose of salvation.

Good question. Before I answer, notice the brother of the prodigal son who was with the father left and never come back. The save ones (sheep) sin of their own accord, but always come back and not only with/in faith, but with godly sorrow. Jesus is our Savior and High preist who interceeds for His sheep. The Father ALAWAYS answers the Son's prayers. Jesus said in scripture that He ONLY prayers for His Sheep - the Ones the Father has given to Him from out of the world (John 17:9 - Read all of John 17), and because of it, they keep repent and keep the faith as noted in Luke 22:31. The ONLY reason any Christian repent and come back to the Father is because of Jesus' prayers and because the Spirit of God in us who both does the willing and working in us to bring about God (Phil 2:13). Salvation is from start to finish ALL of God, thats why He gets ALL the glory. Its amazing grace that any are saved!
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Where do you get the idea that the older brother left and wouldn't come back? The brother represents those who didn't stray from God. In fact, the father confirms the older brother's sonship forever:

"And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found." - Luke 15:31-32

The prodigal son is the one who "was dead, and is alive again, was lost, and is found."

Now as to John 17, Jesus is praying about His disciples. Jesus here is praying in regards to the purpose of the disciples, whom, "...I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me."

The disciples are commissioned to spread the gospel and it is in this context that Jesus thanks God for giving the disciples to Him. the reason he is not praying for the world is because the world has not received the Word as the disciples have, at least not yet. (For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God..." - I Cor. 3:19) They will be sent out after His resurrection.

Later, Jesus prays for those that will believe on Him, "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;" notice that Jesus prays for those who will be saved through their belief (an act of the will), that they will be one in the mission that "that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

This prayer of Jesus is for the spreading of the Gospel, not of salvation. It is the Word that will quicken hearts that they (the world) might believe. that word might speaks of the possibility that everyone will believe.

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." - Phil 2:13

Of course, you realize that the Apostle Paul was speaking to those already saved as indicated in Phil. 1:1,

"Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:"

Once we are saved, God will work in us to will and do His good pleasure. But it is a cooperative relationship with the Lord as we obey Him,. Look at the verse preceding:

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." - Phil. 2:12

These are folks already obeying the Lord, not those who are yet to be saved.
 
Silas, can I give my view of God's Love? Gods Love to me is unconditional, and for all who choose it over the lusts of the flesh. I view it as an adoption process. God calls all for adoption through his Spirit, which was made manifest in Christ, but in order for us to recieve, we must first choose to be adopted and embrace his Spirit, which is Love. Surly there is more to God than Love, but I believe Love is the core of his essence, Holiness, and Justice.

I agree with this. My only thing is that I say with the Bible, the only reason why anyone chooses God is because God inables them too. Then the saying is true: We love Him because He first loved us.

Many would have you believe that his Love is exclusive and only for those whom put faith in Jesus, But Jesus was inclusive: 9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Thats 2 Peter 3:9. Read it again. The Lord is not slack concerning his peromise as some men ( tis - meaning a certain one or certain ones)any (tis - meaning a certain one or certain ones) should persish but that all come to repentance. Here's the first exgesis - its an easy one:

Who is the "us-ward" refering to? One verse above - verse 8, tells us, its the "beloved." OK, so read from verse one and it says..."This is now the second letter Im writting to you beloved." OK, so look at the first letter, verse one - 1Peter 1:1-2 and it says that both epistles or letters are written to the elect (the kjv says by God's forknoweldge, but thats another subject that I'll talk about later if someone brings it up).

Here's the second exegesis - a more indebth one:

Look at the highlighted words in 2 Peter 3:9: the words "some men" and "any." Notice they are the SAME greek words and have the same meanings. Therefore, the verse can be read in its orignal..."The Lord is not slack concerning his peromise as certian ones count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that certain ones should persish but that all (of the cetian ones - elect) come to repentance. This is why Chrisitans shouldnt be lazy when studying their bibles. This is God's words and its embarrasing when we dont study it and marvel over it. I confess, I dont read it nearly as much as I should. But again, its good not to be lazy and be digila count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that nt when studying these deep truths. Practice good hermanutics and learn what God has revealed to us, its amazing! As Proverbs 25:2 says..." It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."

You stake your claim in an exclusive dogma, while Christ himself is not willing for any to perish.

I believed I showed from enough scripture that that isnt true. Christ himself said that he came only for his own sheep.

I beleve the truth is that Gods love is for all who choose to embrace it.

Again, I agree - to a point. Some are made willing and thus choose. Others are left to themselves.

We are all called, but few accept that calling, and many resist God's all encompassing Love. We are none more special than another, we are all human, and when you catagorize, and attempt to limit Gods Love, you limit self, and the Love God wants you to embrace and extent towards your fellow man...

I agree!! None are better than another. All are equally guilty. All are sinners. The ONLY reason that we arent as bad as we could be is because God does not premit it. God is that much in control of our lives, as evident from scripture.

God is not an intellectual pursuit, imo. He deals with the heart, and he knows the heart of man. It is by his Grace that any are saved, but that Grace comes by way of embracing his Spirit...

I agree, God looks at the heart and knows that the heart is desperately wicked (Jer. 17:9). Again, some have been given Sovereign grace and they are saved because of it. Look into these things and be a good Bearean to see if I'm right. Grace is really amazing! Most dont know how much!
 
What quickens a man's heart? The Word of God (Hebrews 4:12). How does faith come? Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

Now the message of the Bible is that salvation is by faith through Christ. When someone is preached the Gospel, the Holy Spirit will use the Word to convict the hearts of people. It is at this point where God reaches out to the person, the Holy Spirit. Some will respond and be saved, some will resist. "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." - Acts 7:51 So the Holy Spirit can be resisted. Why? Because people are stubborn. They choose to resist the Spirit of God. This tells me that the responsibility to come to God is on us. God is willing to regenerate us, but we have to be willing. God didn't twist the arms of these people who Stephen preach to. But it was they who resisted.

I knew an evangelist who used to be a drunkard. His wife implored him to receive Christ and implored him to come to church. This dear lady prayed for fourteen years for her husband to be saved. But he kept his ways. Finally, he decided to go to church lest the woman annoy him to death about it. When he went to church, he heard the Word and the Holy Spirit convicted his heart. At the end of the service at altar call, he resisted going to get saved, but then relented just to get his wife to stop bugging. So he went forward and knelt down, and then broke down in tears before God and gave his life to the Lord.

I believe that this dear lady's prayer for fourteen years was answered by God to reach out to her husband. I believe that it would have been God's will that he gotten saved earlier, if he didn't resist the Spirit of God. I also believe that her prays activated that conviction of the Spirit of God in the man's life.

Yes, yes, it is God's salvation. But it's our choice whether we come freely.

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." - Rev 22:17

The Spirit of God said 'Come' to this man, and The bride (the man's wife) also said 'Come'. But do we will?
 
Silas said:
I believed I showed from enough scripture that that isnt true. Christ himself said that he came only for his own sheep.
Click to expand...

What about this statement, Silas?

17. When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


Surely you don't deny what Jesus says here...


Love,
 
For: Dondi

God forces salvation on anyone? I'm assuming you meant God does NOT force salvation on anyone. But then you turn around and say that the Holy Spirit makes the sinner willing. You say that the sinners choose to go to hell. But if you understand the scriptures, we are already sinners on our way to hell. The choice is already initially made. The choice comes in calling on the name of the Lord for salvation.

Yes, I agree with everything there. We are born sinners and on our way to hell. What I meant by people choosing to go to hell is the choice they make when they choose to hate God, love darkness rather than light, etc. etc. Also yes, I meant that God does NOT force salvation. Sorry about that!

I do understand the power of sin. We, in and of ourselves, cannot save ourselves. However, that does not preclude us from the ability to seek help. God throws the lifeline out into the drowning sea, but we have to grab hold of it, so then God can pull us back in.

OK, thats fair enough. Scriptures tells us that man are "dead in sin." That being said, I want to show you just 3 scripture to make a point (I can use more if you want):

1. "Truly, Truly, I say unto you, anyone who commits sin, is a slave to sin" (John 8:34).

2. "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned" (1Cor 2:14).

3. "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot" (Romans 8:7).

Question to Consider: How can a man who is already a slave to sin (John 8:34), who is in the flesh and cannot even understand the spiritual things of God - namely, to believe the gospel (1 Cor. 2:14), and who is hostile to God (since he loves darkness rather than light) and cannot submit to God's laws (Romans 8:7), choose within himself to keep the highest law - namely, to glorify God and please Him by denying self and following after Christ? How do you answer?

 And I've never heard of the term "effectual calling". Is that a biblical term?

No. Just another theological term to expain what is going on in 1 Cor. 1:23-24, etc:

For Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks ask for wisdom, but we preach about a crucified Christ, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles. But to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

First thing to notice: Who's believing? The Jews? No. The Greeks/Gentials? No. The ones being called are beleving. Those who are sheep comes when their Sheapard calls. God's sheep will hear His voice.

Repent, yes. That is our response to the call. Then we are converted. we don't come on our own stregnth, but if we are willing to repent, then his power is affected.

Repentance is a gift. As a matter of fact, repentace and faith are two sides of the same coin and both are gifts not given to all people indivisual (Acts 18:27, 5:31, etc.).

You make absolutely no sense when you say that God commands us to come even though he knows we will not and cannot.

Why not? He did it with Lazarus, with Paroah, with sinners, etc.? He commands many things that we cannot do in and of our own strenght, e.g., "Love God with all your heart, mind, strenght, etc."

There is a big difference between being willing and being able. The point that we are not able apart from the Spirit of God, I whole heartedly agree with. But God leaves it up to us to heed the command.

If that were true, none would be saved. God makes us willing by choosing some by grace (Romans 9, Romans 11, John 17, etc, etc.).

Why are you surprised at this. This debate has been going on for centuries.

I know. It sucks. I wish we'd just give God the Glory, He did all the work. We brough nothing. We arent wiser than other sinners who didnt choose, or have greater wills. We didnt say, "it is better to suffer with Christ than to continue in pleasure and sin because after I die, I will have a better life." We are sheep and one day we heard the gospel and it clicked - it made sense, and we ran to the Savior. We were made willing by grace and we believed by the gifts of faith and repentance that God gives. Scripture is so clear about that. I think the reason why the debate is going on is because inherantly, we want to believe that we have something to do with being saved, even if it was 99% God and 1% us, we want that 1 percent. Plus I dont think we like to admit that we are absolutely wicked. Its one thing to say "Im a sinner" but another thing to say "there is nothing good at all in me and I am the most vilest of men."

Did you ever think that it might be God's will for us to have the capacity to decide whether or not we are willing to choose Him.

Yes!

that is freewill.

The will is not free, its enslaved to sin. The will is bound to be consistant with its nature. Therefore, it will never choose what isnt in its nature - namely, to seek and love God.

if we don't have free will in that regard, then our love to Him is contrived and disingenious, for if He makes us love Him, then it is not love at all, but compulsion.

Thats a misconception. The question you ought to ask a Christian is not do you have a will, but instead why? Why do some wicked sinners who love sin and hate God come to Christ? It goes back to 1 Cor. 1:23-24, they are sheep and are made willing by grace. So in our new nature we become like Adam again - able to choose either the good or bad. The unregenerated man only chooses bad in the spiritual realm. Yes, he can do good and be better than Christians sometimes. But, when asked to deny self and follow after Christ, he wont - its against his nature. He needs a new heart to do so. God has to do that. He does that first (Ezk. 36:26-27) and only to whom he choose to give it.

You ever hear of the saying, "If you love someone, set them free. If they come back they're yours; if they don't they never were."

Yeah. Theres some truth in that, I think.

Keep in mind, Israel was chosen for the purpose of bringing Christ into the world as Savior. This is a promise way back to Abraham, indeed way back to Eve in Genesis 3:15, in which through Abraham's seed, all the nations of the world will be blessed. When you refer to Israel as being God's elect, it is in this purpose that they are elected, not salvation. Not all of Israel were saved, for there were those that rebelled, by choice.

Sort of true. Not all of Israel is really Israel but through Isacc the promise will be counted. So yes, all of Israel will be saved. Read romans 9 and tell me what you think. I think that should seal it.
Again, see my comments above about the election for the purpose of bringing Christ into the world, not for the purpose of salvation.

Not true. Look at Romans 9. God's promise to Elect "Israel" was always for salvation. Where you err is you assume that I mean ALL of Israel as in everyone born a Jew.

Where do you get the idea that the older brother left and wouldn't come back? The brother represents those who didn't stray from God. In fact, the father confirms the older brother's sonship forever:

Sorry, I meant that the older brother never showed that godly sorrow that the younger one did. It may be conjecture on my part that because of it, he wasnt saved. My bad!

The prodigal son is the one who "was dead, and is alive again, was lost, and is found."

Yes. I agree.

The disciples are commissioned to spread the gospel and it is in this context that Jesus thanks God for giving the disciples to Him. the reason he is not praying for the world is because the world has not received the Word as the disciples have, at least not yet. (For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God..." - I Cor. 3:19) They will be sent out after His resurrection. Later, Jesus prays for those that will believe on Him, "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;" notice that Jesus prays for those who will be saved through their belief (an act of the will), that they will be one in the mission that "that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

You're assuming that the reason those who believe through preaching is choosing to believe in an of their own strenght. Thats NOT what scriptures say. The preaching of the gospel is the means in which God uses to call His elect; thats why its foolishness to the rest. When the gospel goes out the following occurs: "And all those who were appointed to eternal life, believed (Acts 13:48).

This prayer of Jesus is for the spreading of the Gospel, not of salvation. It is the Word that will quicken hearts that they (the world) might believe. that word might speaks of the possibility that everyone will believe.

Wow! How could you get that from the context of John 17? Jesus is about to go through with the sacrifice whereby He may suffer the wrath for all His people/sheep, and you dont think He's not praying for their salvation. Hmm? OK, I'll let that one go. But yo, read verse 2.

Of course, you realize that the Apostle Paul was speaking to those already saved as indicated in Phil. 1:1,

Yes. My point was that God does all the willing in us to bring about Good works. The only reason we desire to become more like Christ is because of the willing of God in us.

Once we are saved, God will work in us to will and do His good pleasure. But it is a cooperative relationship with the Lord as we obey Him,. Look at the verse preceding:

Not exactly right, but good observation. I'm NOT taking away human responsiblity - we have that. We're not robots after all. But that said, its not synergism but mongergism. God does both "the willing and working." What that means is that ONLY by His grace can we do anything at all. Remember Jesus' words..."You can do 'nothing' apart from me" in John 15v5? Again, its by grace we do anything...Grace, Grace, Grace. Do you see why God gets all the Glory? Oh by the way, this brings up another point. If we Christians can do nothing apart from Christ, how do you suppose a unregenerated sinner can in and of his own come to Christ without Christ? Morever, if he can believe with his old heart, why does he need a new one? The free will argument makes no sense to me. See why I dont get the arguement?

These are folks already obeying the Lord, not those who are yet to be saved.

Agreed. My point again was that we do good by God's grace. Apart from Christ we have NO good works before God (Romans 14:23).
 
Cage said:
What about this statement, Silas?

17. When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


Surely you don't deny what Jesus says here...


Love,
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I agree with that. Which of us is righteous? Christ came to save sinners - different types of all kinds of people, race, languages, etc. He's reconciling the world to himself by saving mankind (some of all sorts of men). Read Romans 9 and tell me what you think.
 
What quickens a man's heart? The Word of God (Hebrews 4:12). How does faith come? Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Now the message of the Bible is that salvation is by faith through Christ. When someone is preached the Gospel, the Holy Spirit will use the Word to convict the hearts of people. It is at this point where God reaches out to the person, the Holy Spirit. Some will respond and be saved, some will resist. "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." - Acts 7:51 So the Holy Spirit can be resisted. Why? Because people are stubborn. They choose to resist the Spirit of God. This tells me that the responsibility to come to God is on us. God is willing to regenerate us, but we have to be willing. God didn't twist the arms of these people who Stephen preach to. But it was they who resisted.

I knew an evangelist who used to be a drunkard. His wife implored him to receive Christ and implored him to come to church. This dear lady prayed for fourteen years for her husband to be saved. But he kept his ways. Finally, he decided to go to church lest the woman annoy him to death about it. When he went to church, he heard the Word and the Holy Spirit convicted his heart. At the end of the service at altar call, he resisted going to get saved, but then relented just to get his wife to stop bugging. So he went forward and knelt down, and then broke down in tears before God and gave his life to the Lord.

I believe that this dear lady's prayer for fourteen years was answered by God to reach out to her husband. I believe that it would have been God's will that he gotten saved earlier, if he didn't resist the Spirit of God. I also believe that her prays activated that conviction of the Spirit of God in the man's life.

Yes, yes, it is God's salvation. But it's our choice whether we come freely.

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." - Rev 22:17

The Spirit of God said 'Come' to this man, and The bride (the man's wife) also said 'Come'. But do we will?
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I agree with a lot of what you said in here. First, yes people do resist the Holy Spirit. Christian do that every time we choose to sin. Moreover, pior to salvation, we choose to continue running eventhough we know the gospel is true (we love sin that much). But, what Im saying is that when God is ready to call His saint, He will make sure He comes. No sinner comes to Christ sooner than was expected. About the lady and her husband. I love that story! I knew a guy like that. In God's soverignity, I know that He has made our feverant prayers able to be answered. Therefore, in His soverignity, God answered that dear woman's prayers. But he, like she, is made willing by God. God overcomes the heart in due time by His grace. So yes, grace can be resisted and is often done, but when God is ready, the sinner will be saved. As for the scripture you posted...Jesus is speaking to already redeemed sinners (the Chruch). Dont use emotions to understand salvation, use scripture. On this subject, its a very tough thing to admit that God Is Sovereign and elects whom he wills. Did you read Romans 9 like I asked..."Its not up to who runs or wills, but 'on God who shows mercy.'" God does what He wants, but He's fair. No one who doesnt deseve it goes to Hell. But, a lot who dont deserve it get Heaven. Preach the gospel to EVERYONE, but only some will obey. Some are sheep, others are Goats. Question: What does the scripture say...are you sheep because you hear and believe, or do you beleive because you are a sheep?

Tell me from scripture.
 
To pay for their sins. God is way too holy to let sin go by (Rom. 3:25 and many, many others). Jesus is the propeitiation or scapegoat for God's chosen people, who is from out of every nation, tounge, and tribe. In other words, Jesus came to live a perfect life, which is imputed to the sinner's account, and then He died a perfect sacrifice, whereby all the sinner's sins may be imputed to Jesus and have Him pay their sin bill, as it were. The the trade has been made: Sinner's get Jesus' righteouness and are justified before God, and Jesus' pays for their sin and justify God's righteouness and Holiness. This was the reason the Word was manifested into flesh - to fulfill the duty of the 2nd person of the Godhead - to pay for sin.

So Jesus died to pay for the sins of the believers, right? And not the unbelievers and other people who God hates according to you. What's with this chosen people stuff? Is this the notion that there are a certain few elect that will go to Heaven?
None believed. God chose from the same group of wicked sinners some to display His mercy and grace, and left the rest to their own choices to display His justice and wrath. Much like this: Suppose you and I were in jail for stealing. The jailer comes to me and says, "aye Silas, the governer has chosen to give you mercy, you are free to go." Who do I have to thank? No one but the governer, thats who. Who do you have to blame for being jail. No one but you, thats who. Its the same way with sinners. Elects have no one to thank but God. Nonelects have no one to blame but themselves. So you should ask: "How do you know you are elect?" When you hear the gospel, that a Holy God who demands all sins be paid for, sent His beloved Son to suffer and die in sinners place. If you repent and believe and continue till then end of your life - you are an elect.

If none believed, then who did Jesus die for? I would have to assume he died for everyone who ever was, is, and is to come. He didn't die for a certain few people who were on God's nice list. This means that Jesus died for everyone, and perhaps that he was more "holy" than God, who you seem to be portraying as a person who cannot overlook offences against Him.

Exactly. God is NOT all Loving, nor is He obligated to love anyone. God is Three times Holy and ALL of His perfect attributes flow from His Holiness. Since God by nature is reqiured to be Holy, I am VERY suprised that He loves any of us sinners at all! I feel like those dudes in scripture who say..."What is man that you should be mindful of us?" What amazing Love and Grace! I wish that ALL who hear the gospel would believe!

OK, but your first post says that God's love is unconditional. Unconditional means that no matter what you do or say, that He will still love you. I'm not saying He is required to love everyone unconditionally, but since that doesn't seem to be the case, then the info in the first post is obviously false. It sounds like "holy" and "holier than thou" are being mixed up to me, because if God is complete in and of Himself, then no matter what He chooses to do or to not do, he will remain holy and complete.

Yes Kosmos is world. World is used of unbelievers, believers, whole universe, etc. In context of John 3 and especially v 16, its speaking of those born again, believers, etc.

Could you provide some sort of evidence for this? I am having a hrd time believing that a word that literally means world and universe would refer only to a very specific number of people within that world.
 
So Jesus died to pay for the sins of the believers, right? And not the unbelievers and other people who God hates according to you. What's with this chosen people stuff? Is this the notion that there are a certain few elect that will go to Heaven?

Whoa there buddy! I never said God hates anyone. I may have qouted some scripture that where God says "Jacob I loved but Easu I hated" but I didnt say God hates people - the Bible did. God is angry at the wicked everyday, the book of Psa. says. Anyone who is saved asks the same quetion - namely, "why me, God?" They ask that because they know He should hate them too. Adam and Eve sinned only once and God cast them out of the garden and ruled that they die and that all born through them will likewise die. He's that HOLY! That said, lets move on to your question about the elect. Short answer: All those whom the Father has given to the Son (elect) will come to the Son and have eternal life (John 17).
If none believed, then who did Jesus die for?

The ones the Father has given to Him from out of the same group of wicked sinners. By grace are we saved!

I would have to assume he died for everyone who ever was, is, and is to come.

Prove that from scripture. John 3:16 and 2 Peter 3:9 have already been answered. Reread them, they're obvious. Bring the one from 1 Tim. 2:4 and Ezk. 18:23, and I'll try to answer them.

He didn't die for a certain few people who were on God's nice list.

God's nice list consist of wicked sinners who are saved wholly on God's grace and NOTHING within themselves. They'll be in Heaven worship and thanking God for His super amazing grace! Men do not seek God, God seeks men - some of all sorts.

This means that Jesus died for everyone, and perhaps that he was more "holy" than God, who you seem to be portraying as a person who cannot overlook offences against Him.

God swore by His holiness, never by His love. God saves primarlly for His own Glory and not primarlly for Love. Read the scriptures, that much is clear. I think we as people like to think of God as this big nice guy who always does everything for his creatures. Thats not the picture the Bible paints. God does everything for His own Glory! This God of the Bible is Sovereign and does everything that is Right and Just because He is that and Holy and Perfect. The question that the saints in the Bible poses is not "why doesnt God save everyone" but instead "why have He saved anyone at all." And yes, God cannot over look sins. So the Bible says.


OK, but your first post says that God's love is unconditional. Unconditional means that no matter what you do or say, that He will still love you.

Nah, unconditional means that He's a respector of no man. He saves whom he wills to save and hardens who he wills to harden. Sorry if I confused you. I was speaking in terms of election to salvation where God is unconditionally electing His saints.

I'm not saying He is required to love everyone unconditionally, but since that doesn't seem to be the case, then the info in the first post is obviously false. It sounds like "holy" and "holier than thou" are being mixed up to me, because if God is complete in and of Himself, then no matter what He chooses to do or to not do, he will remain holy and complete.

Sorry, I dont know what you mean here. Explain please.
Could you provide some sort of evidence for this? I am having a hrd time believing that a word that literally means world and universe would refer only to a very specific number of people within that world.

Its good to ask this kind of question. We shouldnt be lazy with God's words but be good beareans. So here:

"Kosmos" is used of the Universe as a whole: Acts 17:24 - "God that made the world and all things therein seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth."


"Kosmos" is used of the earth: John 13:1; Ephesians 1:4, etc., etc.- "When Jesus knew that his hour was come that He should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved His own which were in the world He loved them unto the end." "Depart out of this world" signifies, leave this earth. "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world." This expression signifies, before the earth was founded—compare Job 38:4 etc.


"Kosmos" is used of the world-system: John 12:31 etc. "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the Prince of this world be cast out"— compare Matthew 4:8 and 1 John 5:19,



"Kosmos" is used of the whole human race: Romans 3:19, etc.—"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."


"Kosmos" is used of humanity minus believers: John 15:18; Romans 3:6 "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you." Believers do not "hate" Christ, so that "the world" here must signify the world of unbelievers in contrast from believers who love Christ. "God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world." Here is another passage where "the world" cannot mean "you, me, and everybody," for believers will not be "judged" by God, see John 5:24. So that here, too, it must be the world of unbelievers which is in view.


"Kosmos" is used of Gentiles in contrast from Jews: Romans 11:12 etc. "Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them (Israel) the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (Israel’s) fulness." Note how the first clause in italics is defined by the latter clause placed in italics. Here, again, "the world" cannot signify all humanity for it excludes Israel!


"Kosmos" is used of believers only: John 1:29; 3:16, 17; 6:33; 12:47; 1 Corinthians 4:9; 2 Corinthians 5:19.
 
Silas, why do you suppose God hardens some, and shows mercy to others? It is all his mercy, imo. I was once hardened, before that tormented with rage, and jealousy. I saw his Love, and his Love/Grace metled the ice away. There are those who are hard from birth, and his mercy lay upon their feet, if they so choose to recieve it.

His Love/Grace is readily available to those who want it, seek it, and need it, imo. Like you said, he's not a respector of persons. What he grants some, he makes available to others. All we must do is die to ourselves, and become reborn into his Spirit. Sometimes in order to die to ourselves, we must first be hardened, then the healing takes place through his Love.

God excludes no one, we exclude ourselves.


Much Love,
 
Silas said:


Its good to ask this kind of question. We shouldnt be lazy with God's words but be good beareans. So here:

"Kosmos" is used of the Universe as a whole: Acts 17:24 - "God that made the world and all things therein seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth."


"Kosmos" is used of the earth: John 13:1; Ephesians 1:4, etc., etc.- "When Jesus knew that his hour was come that He should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved His own which were in the world He loved them unto the end." "Depart out of this world" signifies, leave this earth. "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world." This expression signifies, before the earth was founded—compare Job 38:4 etc.


"Kosmos" is used of the world-system: John 12:31 etc. "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the Prince of this world be cast out"— compare Matthew 4:8 and 1 John 5:19,



"Kosmos" is used of the whole human race: Romans 3:19, etc.—"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."


"Kosmos" is used of humanity minus believers: John 15:18; Romans 3:6 "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you." Believers do not "hate" Christ, so that "the world" here must signify the world of unbelievers in contrast from believers who love Christ. "God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world." Here is another passage where "the world" cannot mean "you, me, and everybody," for believers will not be "judged" by God, see John 5:24. So that here, too, it must be the world of unbelievers which is in view.


"Kosmos" is used of Gentiles in contrast from Jews: Romans 11:12 etc. "Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them (Israel) the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (Israel’s) fulness." Note how the first clause in italics is defined by the latter clause placed in italics. Here, again, "the world" cannot signify all humanity for it excludes Israel!


"Kosmos" is used of believers only: John 1:29; 3:16, 17; 6:33; 12:47; 1 Corinthians 4:9; 2 Corinthians 5:19.
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Here's your link...again.

The Meaning of "KOSMOS" in John 3:16

Chris
 
Silas, why do you suppose God hardens some, and shows mercy to others?

God hardens already guilt sinners for a number of reasons according to scritpure - to preventing from repenting, to do his bidding, etc. As for why He shows mercy on some, its from His purpose in showing Love to the praise and glory of His grace.

It is all his mercy, imo.

Thats not so far from the truth. God's common graces extend to everyone, even the worst of mankind. They live and enjoy all that life has to offer because He allows it..."All good things come from the Lord."

I was once hardened, before that tormented with rage, and jealousy. I saw his Love, and his Love/Grace metled the ice away. There are those who are hard from birth, and his mercy lay upon their feet, if they so choose to recieve it.

OK. I was drawn by His mercy and goodness 3 years ago because I saw that Christ died for me eventhough I broke all of God's laws. I only started learning about His wrath and Soveregnity this year. God has become so much bigger to me - He's so cool, for lack of better words.

His Love/Grace is readily available to those who want it, seek it, and need it, imo.

I agree. I'll add that some are made willing. Thats what the Bible teaches.

Like you said, he's not a respector of persons. What he grants some, he makes available to others. All we must do is die to ourselves, and become reborn into his Spirit. Sometimes in order to die to ourselves, we must first be hardened, then the healing takes place through his Love.

Not really. The last thing you want happen is for God to harden your heart. Harden hearts dont get saved. Thats why God said in Eze. 36, He'll change stony hearts into hearts of flesh. We all need new hearts that are willing to believe. Again, God changes the hearts and makes us willing by the changing of hearts.

God excludes no one, we exclude ourselves.


AMEN!!!

God Bless right back!
 
Silas said:
Not really. The last thing you want happen is for God to harden your heart. Harden hearts dont get saved. Thats why God said in Eze. 36, He'll change stony hearts into hearts of flesh. We all need new hearts that are willing to believe. Again, God changes the hearts and makes us willing by the changing of hearts.

God excludes no one, we exclude ourselves.


AMEN!!!

God Bless right back!
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Sometimes in order to die to self, we must be hardened, imo. This is how it happened for me, others will be different. No, it's not something to aspire to happen, but when you are hard, and then comes the Love of God rushing inward, the hardness melts away, and you are able to feel again. It's a most beautiful, and life changing thing to occur. So, even if God hardens your heart, he is perfectly willing to soften it in time, and through his Love if one so desires.



Much Love,
 
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