path_of_one
I don't see how this indicates that everyone is defiled and unbelieving. It says exactly what it says- to pure people, everything is pure (we see the goodness of God in everything, and seek purity in all). To the unbeliever, nothing in life is good (they do not see God in life) and their minds and consciences are thus defiled. I'm taking a literal read there. Your own take on it seems to be more of a stretch.
I like the color cordination, nice choice of color! That said, I feel you missed my point in qouting Titus 1:15. I was not speaking of the pure; which is to say, those regenerated and made pure by Christ's atonment, but on the defiled, those who are not regenerated and therefore still "dead in sin." My point about the unregenerated is that nothing is pure and that both their minds and consciences are defiled, just as it said in Titus 1:15.
Again, not saying that everyone is in such a state. Also, you might want to look deeper into what this verse meant in the original Greek, which indicates free will. From the Amplified translation:
"So this I say and solemnly testify in [the name of] the Lord [as in His presence], that you must no longer live as the heathen (the Gentiles) do in their perverseness [in the folly, vanity, and emptiness of their souls and the futility] of their minds. Their moral understanding is darkened and their reasoning is beclouded. [They are] alienated (estranged, self-banished) from the life of God [with no share in it; this is] because of the ignorance (the want of knowledge and perception, the willful blindness) that is deep-seated in them, due to their hardness of heart [to the insensitiveness of their moral nature]."
So far, I don't really need to come up with scripture to justify my view of free will. Your own scriptures are doing this for me fairly well.
LOL! Again, you missed the point. I'm NOT talking about freewill or responsiblity here, but on the natural unregenerated man. How did such a person live? I qouted Eph. 4:17-18. Read it again.
In context, not sure where you're going with this. They were talking about dietary requirements, and Jesus was saying that it's what's in our heart that's the issue. What goes in our mouths isn't as important as what could come out of our heart- that is what defiles us, and that's what we need to improve on if we are really following God's will. This says nothing about people being incurably evil (without election) or about predestination or free will. I think it's off topic, myself. None of us argue that humans don't sin.
I realized where you're making your mistake now. You assume that I'm speaking of election or free will or along those lines. The scriptures I qouted here are building my point about the depravity of the natural man. Jesus said that the heart of man is wicked and what comes out of it is what condemns man. Mat. 15:19-20. Again, the point is about man's nature and not free will. That will come.
Again- the Amplified translation that better expounds on the Hebrew helps here. In most translations, it does not say "incurably bad" and that is a big difference. Also, not sure what translation you are using, but all four in front of me say "heart" not "human mind."
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" KJV
"The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; Who can understand it?" NAS
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly perverse and corrupt and severely, mortally sick! Who can know it [perceive, understand, be acquainted with his own heart and mind]?" Amplified
Same point again. Im speaking about man's depravity and using Jer. 19:9 to show the depravity of man's mind or heart, which is sometimes used inter-changeably in scripture.
But we must be capable of these things, for we are called to them by Christ. "You, therefore, must be perfect [growing into complete maturity of godliness in mind and character, having reached the proper height of virtue and integrity], as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matthew 5:48 Amplified
Here we go, this is a good topic. I didnt say man cant do good or be moral. I always affirm that! Jesus himself said "you being evil know how to give good." What I'm saying is that before God, our best deeds and morality at its zenith, are filty rags (Isa. 64:4) By the way, it is worth mentioning that you qoute a good scripture to prove man's depravity. God commands to us to be perfect. Can we? Has there ever been a perfect man (other than Jesus)? Not according to Jesus who said, "There is none good, no not one." Lastly, it should be stated (for the glory of God) that the only reason any of us do anything good, is because of God's common grace. Apart from God's grace all of us are the vilest of humans. This is what it means to be totally depraved. This is what sinners have to see, at least to a point (I'm not going to give the measure because scripture doesnt say), before they can be saved. They must see their sin as exceedingly sinful before they can cry out to the Savior's help. If we call upon Him He will graciously save us!
But Jesus called us all to be otherwise, so it must be a possibility in the range of human choice and action. I read Jesus' words literally. So if Jesus calls us to be perfect (as above), who are we to say this is impossible? It must be possible if our Lord calls us to do it.
I read Jesus' words literally as well. And I know the difference between what we can do and what we cant (from scripture of course). I know that God commands things knowing that we cannot do them to teach a point, e.g., "Pharaoh, let my people go," "love God with all of your mind, heart, soul," "Lazarus come forth," "Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect," etc, etc. Those are all instances where God commands knowing that we cannot in and of our ownselves do it.
Can you prove that everyone that has ever been born was born wicked and depraved? (And yes, I know everyone is born with the capacity to sin, and we all do. That is not the same thing as being born utterly wicked and depraved.)
Sure. Psa. 58:3, Psa. 51:5, Eph. 2:3, etc. We are not born with the "capacity" to sin, but are born sinners. In true, we are not sinners because we sin, but we sin because we are a sinners. It is our nature. I find it sad that the word "siner" has lost its saltiness. People are quick to admit that, but to admit that they are wicked before God because of their thoughts alone, it is another story.
Is there a scriptural basis to assume that God must behave in certain ways in order to display His attributes?
Sure. God does everything for His own glory, make people, save people, punish people, etc. etc. Thats pretty much the point of the Bible. You can do a google search for that, there are too many scriptures to mention concerning this fact.
Is God somehow governed by something greater than God, that there are laws He Himself cannot break. (i.e., He is just and so He is obligated to punish some people, even if the scriptures clearly say His will is that all are saved?) Because I thought this was all about sticking to scripture.
God is Sovereign over everything!! He is Thrice Holy and swares by His holiness (Psa. 89:35). Therefore, since God cannot lie (Titus 1:2) and He swares by Himself (Heb. 6:13), He will not go against His nature by not doing everything for His own glory and His own good pleasure (Eph. 1:11). Everything God does is for His own glory and for His own good pleasure. With that explained and used for my "frame work" to build a point, all that's left to say is that because God is Good and because He will always do what is right (Gen. 18:25), He will not let the guilty go unpunished (Nahum 1:3). Is that enough scripture for you?
Also, I'd like to see more scriptural basis for predestination from the gospels? No offense, but not all Christians base their beliefs primarily on Paul's letters. Some, like myself, are based first on the words of our Lord and form our beliefs primarily on that. I like Paul, the letters have a lot of wisdom, but the Bible is a collection of works and I do not hold the letters of Paul before the words and recorded actions of Jesus. I'd like to know what Jesus said on the issue, since out of all the books of the Bible, I feel the direct words of God are most clearly preserved in the recordings of Christ.
Sure. But before I do that, I feel it important to mention that you should read 2Tim 3:16. Paul's words are just important as true as Jesus because they come form the same source. That said, I'll show you were Jesus taught election based on God's Sovereign choice, but not yet, OK? Wait until we clear up this stuff here...One thing at a time sis.
I'm out of time at this point, but I'll post more scriptures later... I leave with this- a promise from Jesus Himself to all of us: I don't think it gets much clearer than that, or spoken by a more authoritative source.
Good scripture! I affiarm it. ALL that ask will be answered, all that seek will find, whoever wills let them come, etc., etc. Those scriptures are not weapons against Calvinism, we affarim them all. We only say that the reason any sinner comes to God is because God draws them, and pradoxal as it may sound, he makes us willing against our unwillingness. You're all over the place in this post "path of one." Lets try to keep things in context, OK? If you need to, read my responce to Dondi again. I wrote that in defense for total depravity and it wasnt speaking of freewill or predestination. I see that you want to discuss this though and thats great. You wanna try answering my inital question? Catch you later!
-- Silas