S
Silas
Guest
Dondi
Our sin makes us unworthy of God's presence.
Yes, Chrsitian. But, its more than just making us unworthy to be in God's presence. Sin makes us detestable and worthy of His greatest condemnation. This is why Hell exist. Do not image that hell is a place that is beyond God's reach where He does not rule. Hell exist as the reasonable justice of God, where His wrath is expressed to the glory of His justice forever.
Until God can make us right, "by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5), through the Blood of Jesus Christ, it is vanity to try and please Him.
Amen!
God knows we are but clay, that our condition will strive against sin. He also knows that the remedy is to impute righteousness to us. But that is dependent on our willingness to repent and believe in that remedy.
Who's willing to come to God if no one seeks (Romans 3:11). Also, how is it depending on our supposed willingness when the Bible emphatically says "So then, it does not depend on human desire or exertion, but on God who shows mercy?" (Romans 9:16). I know why you believe in free will, its the same reasons why I did: You want everyone to get a "chance" to go to Heaven, you dont want people to go to hell, you assume that even though man has a sinful nature, he isnt really "that" bad to where he is worthless and a destable thing before God. Is that right?
The sin He has no problem in forgiving, for that has been paid for.
Amen!
What He is waiting for is our response to the offer to make us righteous.
Christian, God knows His from the foudations of the world. He is not suprised when someone believes and is born agian because He foreordained those He foreknew to be born agian and made into the image of Jesus. That is the plan of God's Redemption: The Father Chose a people to Himself, the Son paid the price to Redeem them, and the Holy Spirit seals them until the day of their glorification.
Are we willing to respond?
This is the question you should start at. Let your bible dictate how you answer and not your experience. k?
Our sin makes us unworthy of God's presence.
Yes, Chrsitian. But, its more than just making us unworthy to be in God's presence. Sin makes us detestable and worthy of His greatest condemnation. This is why Hell exist. Do not image that hell is a place that is beyond God's reach where He does not rule. Hell exist as the reasonable justice of God, where His wrath is expressed to the glory of His justice forever.
Until God can make us right, "by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5), through the Blood of Jesus Christ, it is vanity to try and please Him.
Amen!
God knows we are but clay, that our condition will strive against sin. He also knows that the remedy is to impute righteousness to us. But that is dependent on our willingness to repent and believe in that remedy.
Who's willing to come to God if no one seeks (Romans 3:11). Also, how is it depending on our supposed willingness when the Bible emphatically says "So then, it does not depend on human desire or exertion, but on God who shows mercy?" (Romans 9:16). I know why you believe in free will, its the same reasons why I did: You want everyone to get a "chance" to go to Heaven, you dont want people to go to hell, you assume that even though man has a sinful nature, he isnt really "that" bad to where he is worthless and a destable thing before God. Is that right?
The sin He has no problem in forgiving, for that has been paid for.
Amen!
What He is waiting for is our response to the offer to make us righteous.
Christian, God knows His from the foudations of the world. He is not suprised when someone believes and is born agian because He foreordained those He foreknew to be born agian and made into the image of Jesus. That is the plan of God's Redemption: The Father Chose a people to Himself, the Son paid the price to Redeem them, and the Holy Spirit seals them until the day of their glorification.
Are we willing to respond?
This is the question you should start at. Let your bible dictate how you answer and not your experience. k?
S
Silas
Guest
For correct Bible understanding one must not make the common error of thinking that everything called "perfect" is so in an absolute sense, that is, to an infinite degree, without limitation. Perfection in this absolute sense distinguishes only the Creator, Jehovah God. Because of this Jesus could say of his Father: "Nobody is good, except one, God." (Mr 10:18) Jehovah is incomparable in his excellence, worthy of all praise, supreme in his superb qualities and powers, so that "his name alone is unreachably high." (Ps 148:1-13; Job 36:3, 4, 26; 37:16, 23, 24; Ps 145:2-10, 21) but that does not make Jesus bad , he just knows that his fatherJehovah is the most high. the same way that i know that Jehovah is the most high , as psalm 83;18 tells me
That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,
You alone are the Most High over all the earth.psalm 83;18Jehovah is not only the most high , he is love and nothing can get better than that.
The Most High God, who created mankind, gave us his written Word, the Holy Scriptures, and set forth many promises in it . These prophecies foretold that in time a holy One would be brought forth to bless all the families of the earth. That promised One was Jesus Christ. ................ many people are misled to believe that Jehovahs witnesses dont recognize Jesus christ . but as all Jehovahs witnesses know, Jesus christ is a central part of Gods purpose for the earth. and there is no salvation in any one else.
That is a very weak arugment Mee. First, the same word for "perfect" is used in reference to both Jesus and God in the New Testatment, it is teleios. Second, only God's perfect righteousness can satisfy God's perfect wrath. No finite being could accomplish that infinitely awesome feat. If you're trusting in a finite Jesus, you follow a false Christ and your god is an idol. You should repent and trust in Jesus alone (and not in anything you do) to be forgiven. Read the Bible alone and put away your JW theology stuff - just read the Bible...PLEASE!
Whoever said that JWs trust in anything other than Jesus' perfect sacrifice? Just because they believe works should accompany faith, it does not mean that they trust in their works - I'm sure you also believe in establishing the law despite it not being able to save you!
And your last comment. Someone could easily come on this forum and advise you to put away all your Calvin theology and "just read the Bible". What does the WatchTower Society and Calvinism have in common? They both provide commentary on the Bible.
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Dondi
Well-Known Member
Silas said:
I believe in free will because I don't think God is a respector of persons in the area of salvation, as indicated here:
"Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." - Romans 2:9-11
"And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:" - I Peter 1:17-19
"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." - Acts 10:34-35
For God to be just, He cannot be biased, at least in the area of salvation.
I will say this, however. In the world arena, God's Will will be performed untill all things and all prophesy is accomplished. He does raise up kings and topple kings, raises up nations, and collapses them, but this has to do with the judgement of nations, not of individuals. God still favor's Israel, for He still has promises to fulfill left over in OT times.
S
Silas
Guest
K. But. at least Calvinistic theology is yet to be debunked and just as easlily be called the gospel, since "Calvinism" is only a nickname and gives the correct exposition on the essentials of the faith, especially concerning salvation issues.
S
Silas
Guest
Dondi
I believe in free will because I don't think God is a respector of persons in the area of salvation, as indicated here:
Exactly! If God was a respector of persons He would save you on account of your choice of Him. He would respect you over the equally guilty guy that didnt believe and that would give you reason to boast and God will not have that. You and like myself, are just as guilty as everyone else. Yet, as the Bible says "It is not up to who wills or runs, but on God who shows mercy." And, "He has mercy on whom He has mercy on and Harderns whom He hardens." Salvation is of the Lord. Please note all the scriptures I've been giving and how the ones you give only compliment my argument.
For God to be just, He cannot be biased, at least in the area of salvation.
Right. You're sounding like what Apostle Paul anticipited in Romans 9...This should show you that your fight against God's wisdom and unbiasness election. Remember, He takes from the same lump of clay - that is - the same group of wicked man, some to good use and some to damnable use. Its rough, I know...I wrestle with it at times too, but I know its due to my humanistic nature. Paul's anticipited questions should show us that we are wrong in finding fault with God on this for now, "seemingly tough" issue.
I will say this, however. In the world arena, God's Will will be performed untill all things and all prophesy is accomplished. He does raise up kings and topple kings, raises up nations, and collapses them, but this has to do with the judgement of nations, not of individuals. God still favor's Israel, for He still has promises to fulfill left over in OT times.
Not exactly right. God judgement are for both people indivisually and nations collectively. That much is certain in scripture. Israel consist of God's promised people through Isaac. It is made up of both Jew and Gentiles. When the "fullness of the gentiles have come and they are grafted in" God will let lose of his hardening of physical Israel. Then, all those who are appointed to eternal life will believe.
I believe in free will because I don't think God is a respector of persons in the area of salvation, as indicated here:
Exactly! If God was a respector of persons He would save you on account of your choice of Him. He would respect you over the equally guilty guy that didnt believe and that would give you reason to boast and God will not have that. You and like myself, are just as guilty as everyone else. Yet, as the Bible says "It is not up to who wills or runs, but on God who shows mercy." And, "He has mercy on whom He has mercy on and Harderns whom He hardens." Salvation is of the Lord. Please note all the scriptures I've been giving and how the ones you give only compliment my argument.
For God to be just, He cannot be biased, at least in the area of salvation.
Right. You're sounding like what Apostle Paul anticipited in Romans 9...This should show you that your fight against God's wisdom and unbiasness election. Remember, He takes from the same lump of clay - that is - the same group of wicked man, some to good use and some to damnable use. Its rough, I know...I wrestle with it at times too, but I know its due to my humanistic nature. Paul's anticipited questions should show us that we are wrong in finding fault with God on this for now, "seemingly tough" issue.
I will say this, however. In the world arena, God's Will will be performed untill all things and all prophesy is accomplished. He does raise up kings and topple kings, raises up nations, and collapses them, but this has to do with the judgement of nations, not of individuals. God still favor's Israel, for He still has promises to fulfill left over in OT times.
Not exactly right. God judgement are for both people indivisually and nations collectively. That much is certain in scripture. Israel consist of God's promised people through Isaac. It is made up of both Jew and Gentiles. When the "fullness of the gentiles have come and they are grafted in" God will let lose of his hardening of physical Israel. Then, all those who are appointed to eternal life will believe.
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Exactly! If God was a respector of persons He would save you on account of your choice of Him. He would respect you over the equally guilty guy that didnt believe and that would give you reason to boast and God will not have that. You and like myself, are just as guilty as everyone else. Yet, as the Bible says "It is not up to who wills or runs, but on God who shows mercy." And, "He has mercy on whom He has mercy on and Harderns whom He hardens." Salvation is of the Lord. Please note all the scriptures I've been giving and how the ones you give only compliment my argument.
If we are all equally sinners, then we are all on the same playing field. Why would God choose one over another? That would show respect of persons, that would show favortism. But all through the Bible, God is looking for those that believe and place their trust in Him, and that is the basis of salvation. Jesus couldn't perform miracles where He wanted to, because of their unbelief. It wasn't God's choice for them to not belief, it was man's choice. True, salvation is of the Lord, but He has already done the work. We need to do our part.
John 1:12 says:
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
Our part is to believe and receive. It is only after this that God gives us the power to become sons of God. Verse 13 expalins that we cannot be naturally born again (that is through natural birth), nor can we will ourselves saved apart from God (that is through following the Law in our flesh), nor by the will of any man (that is no else one can save you), but God (through His Spirit).
Not exactly right. God judgement are for both people indivisually and nations collectively. That much is certain in scripture. Israel consist of God's promised people through Isaac. It is made up of both Jew and Gentiles. When the "fullness of the gentiles have come and they are grafted in" God will let lose of his hardening of physical Israel. Then, all those who are appointed to eternal life will believe.
Israel are the children of promise. They have a separate covenant with God:
"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." - Romans 11:25-27
God still has plans in store for the nation of Israel that will not involve the Gentile believers. The Great Tribulation is when God will show all the nations of the world His Glory on a world-wide scale through Israel. There is a parallel path working here. On one hand, the Gentile believers will be saved, which is what is happening right now. Gentile believer will come in through faith, Israel will come in because of the promises of God through the covenant God has made with them. There will be a regrafting of Israel. Notice what verses 30-33 says:
"For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: [that is the Gentile believers have mercy now, but at Israel's expense]
Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. [Though Israel now doesn't believe, they will receive mercy from the Gentile's mercy]
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. [God blinded Israel, so that the world might have mercy]O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!" [brackets mine]
All Israel will be saved because of God's covenant with them. Jesus will appear as their Messiah and Israel will believe again.
If we are all equally sinners, then we are all on the same playing field. Why would God choose one over another? That would show respect of persons, that would show favortism. But all through the Bible, God is looking for those that believe and place their trust in Him, and that is the basis of salvation. Jesus couldn't perform miracles where He wanted to, because of their unbelief. It wasn't God's choice for them to not belief, it was man's choice. True, salvation is of the Lord, but He has already done the work. We need to do our part.
John 1:12 says:
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
Our part is to believe and receive. It is only after this that God gives us the power to become sons of God. Verse 13 expalins that we cannot be naturally born again (that is through natural birth), nor can we will ourselves saved apart from God (that is through following the Law in our flesh), nor by the will of any man (that is no else one can save you), but God (through His Spirit).
Not exactly right. God judgement are for both people indivisually and nations collectively. That much is certain in scripture. Israel consist of God's promised people through Isaac. It is made up of both Jew and Gentiles. When the "fullness of the gentiles have come and they are grafted in" God will let lose of his hardening of physical Israel. Then, all those who are appointed to eternal life will believe.
Israel are the children of promise. They have a separate covenant with God:
"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." - Romans 11:25-27
God still has plans in store for the nation of Israel that will not involve the Gentile believers. The Great Tribulation is when God will show all the nations of the world His Glory on a world-wide scale through Israel. There is a parallel path working here. On one hand, the Gentile believers will be saved, which is what is happening right now. Gentile believer will come in through faith, Israel will come in because of the promises of God through the covenant God has made with them. There will be a regrafting of Israel. Notice what verses 30-33 says:
"For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: [that is the Gentile believers have mercy now, but at Israel's expense]
Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. [Though Israel now doesn't believe, they will receive mercy from the Gentile's mercy]
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. [God blinded Israel, so that the world might have mercy]O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!" [brackets mine]
All Israel will be saved because of God's covenant with them. Jesus will appear as their Messiah and Israel will believe again.
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Yes, Chrsitian. But, its more than just making us unworthy to be in God's presence. Sin makes us detestable and worthy of His greatest condemnation. This is why Hell exist. Do not image that hell is a place that is beyond God's reach where He does not rule. Hell exist as the reasonable justice of God, where His wrath is expressed to the glory of His justice forever.
Oh, yes, God will rule all, for every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, even those under the earth. David knew could not escape God even if he made his bed in hell. It is our fault for being in hell if we aren't willing to be made worthy through Christ.
Who's willing to come to God if no one seeks (Romans 3:11). Also, how is it depending on our supposed willingness when the Bible emphatically says "So then, it does not depend on human desire or exertion, but on God who shows mercy?" (Romans 9:16). I know why you believe in free will, its the same reasons why I did: You want everyone to get a "chance" to go to Heaven, you dont want people to go to hell, you assume that even though man has a sinful nature, he isnt really "that" bad to where he is worthless and a destable thing before God. Is that right?
Paul, in Romans 3:11, is quoting Psalm 14, where it says, "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God'". The same word in Hebrew can be translated as a viled person, someone who is morally deficient. Most athiests do not start that way, but rather learn not to believe in God. In verse 3 of Psalm 14, it says, "They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy:" Aside from what? to turn aside from something implies that they knew of something to be true, but rejected it. All this passage is saying is that Jews and Gentiles are alike, because we all sin, only one has the Law and the other doesn't.
But earlier in Romans, God says He speaks through His creation and conscience.
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" - Romans 1:18-20
"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
So it is not as though people do not have the capability to believe in God, for God has manifested himself. It's just that they do not want to. They are without excuse. They have the witness of their conscince and God's creation.
But back to your question, I am not promoting the idea of universalism. But I believe that God has given everyone enough revelation of Himself to at least bring them to the point that they know they are sinners in need of salvation, as indicated in their conscience and creation above. I do not believe that man is so deficient that he could not understand this and respond to whatever conviction is on their conscience. But he has two responses to chose from: he can either believe God or not believe God. That is why the lost are without excuse. For they know who God is, but are not willing to acknowledge Him.
Christian, God knows His from the foudations of the world. He is not suprised when someone believes and is born agian because He foreordained those He foreknew to be born agian and made into the image of Jesus. That is the plan of God's Redemption: The Father Chose a people to Himself, the Son paid the price to Redeem them, and the Holy Spirit seals them until the day of their glorification.
True, God has foreknowledge of who will be saved, but that doesn't imply that this is determinate of man's freedom to believe in God. The verses on predestination and foreordination are meant to describe what God will do for the the Body of Christ as a whole, that He wants Christians to be conformed into His image, which is the product of salvation.
Are we willing to respond?
This is the question you should start at. Let your bible dictate how you answer and not your experience. k?
Ok.
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." - Mark 16:16
S
Silas
Guest
Dondi
If we are all equally sinners, then we are all on the same playing field. Why would God choose one over another?
Because He is pleased to. "He loves whom He loves and hates whom He hates." His choice in choosing one sinner over another isnt based on the sinner, but soley on God's choice to sovereignly choose which person to save. Its like this: Suppose you and I robbed a bank and were in prison. The warden comes to me and says, "Silas, you're free to go. The govenor gave you a pardon." Who do I have to thank? No one but the govenor, thats who! I didnt merit his choice, he had mercy. Now, who do you have to blame? No one but you, thats who. The govenor didnt make you commite the crime, you did. And, He does not have to pardon you. In the same way, God has mercy on who He wills.
That would show respect of persons, that would show favortism.
ONLY if God choose someone esle over me because of something in that someone else, that would show favortism and make him a respector of person. But again, if God's choice to save someone over me is wrought about in God showing mercy on whom He wills, then its no longer by my works or of anything I do, but soley on the grounds of Grace that the person is saved.
But all through the Bible, God is looking for those that believe and place their trust in Him, and that is the basis of salvation.
God is not looking - He knows His sheep because He gave them faith. We arent sheep because we believe, but we believe because we are sheep. Faith is a gift purchased by Jesus' sacrifical death for God' sheep (the 'called out' ones from among both Jew and Gentiles).
Jesus couldn't perform miracles where He wanted to, because of their unbelief. It wasn't God's choice for them to not belief, it was man's choice. True, salvation is of the Lord, but He has already done the work. We need to do our part.
That would make salvation by synergistic and ultimately of works. Salvation is ALL of God, it is monergistic for Him to Get ALL the glory. Remember Phi. 2:12-13..."continue working out your salvation with fear and trembling, for the one bringing forth in you both the desire and the effort – for the sake of his good pleasure – is God." In no way am I denying human responsiblity, I'm just saying that the reason we do anything is because of God. All that said, I want to comment on the scripture you bought up because I think it pivots on what I'm trying to say. First, it is important to note that the reason that Jesus couldnt do the miracles wasnt because the people believe and thereby make Jesus dependant on people's belief to have His glory and power show forth. Rather, He didnt do the miricles because of the people's unbelief as a form of judgement. Here's a great example: Matt 11:20-24
Then Jesus began to criticize openly the cities in which he had done many of his miracles, because they did not repent. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you! And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? No, you will be thrown down to Hades! For if the miracles done among you had been done in Sodom, it would have continued to this day. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for the region of Sodom on the day of judgment than for you!”
The question you should ask if you are to be consistant to believe what you believe - namely that God does not blind certian people from believing in order that they may not be saved is, why did He not do the miricles in those named cities that those people would repented? What did Jesus say about that? And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’” (Mark 4:11-12) God has mercy on whom He has mercy on. His election is all through the Bible but most hide from it. I think when we embrace this truth and glory in it, we will come to both understand and appriciate God more.
John 1:12 says: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
Our part is to believe and receive. It is only after this that God gives us the power to become sons of God. Verse 13 expalins that we cannot be naturally born again (that is through natural birth), nor can we will ourselves saved apart from God (that is through following the Law in our flesh), nor by the will of any man (that is no else one can save you), but God (through His Spirit).
Again, who but the called out ones believe (1Cor 1:24)? God's election is based on God's sovereign choice to give faith to whom He wills. Therefore, only those appointed to eternal life will believe the gospel (Acts 13:48).
Israel are the children of promise. They have a separate covenant with God:
Some pastors like John Hagee, Perry Stone, and others believe this but I dont agree. The covernant is the same for ALL of Israel. Do not get confused over the word "Israel" as it is sometimes used both of God's people collectively (Jews and Gentiles in Christ) and natural Israel indivisually. Some of natural Israel, who incidentally are still of the promise and therefore will be saved, has had a partial hardening in order that gentiles may be granted into the promise (this is God's means by which all of Jesus' sheep will be gathered John 10:16). Therefore, when the fullness of the gentiles has come in (Romans 11:1), the harding on Israel will be removed and all of Israel (God's elect from both Jews and Gentiles around the world) will be saved. Do you see election in that? God's saving whom He wills again.
All Israel will be saved because of God's covenant with them. Jesus will appear as their Messiah and Israel will believe again.
All of Israel will be saved and Israel are the children of God made up of Jew and Gentiles believers in Christ. Do not suppose that God is going to reinact the sacrifical laws whereby Jews will be killing sheeps and goats to appease God. No, the sacrifice is already given and it is Christ Jesus. Only those trusting in the Messiah Yeshua Ha Masheck will be saved. The rest, both Jew and Gentile will follow the anti Christ and believe in Him.
If we are all equally sinners, then we are all on the same playing field. Why would God choose one over another?
Because He is pleased to. "He loves whom He loves and hates whom He hates." His choice in choosing one sinner over another isnt based on the sinner, but soley on God's choice to sovereignly choose which person to save. Its like this: Suppose you and I robbed a bank and were in prison. The warden comes to me and says, "Silas, you're free to go. The govenor gave you a pardon." Who do I have to thank? No one but the govenor, thats who! I didnt merit his choice, he had mercy. Now, who do you have to blame? No one but you, thats who. The govenor didnt make you commite the crime, you did. And, He does not have to pardon you. In the same way, God has mercy on who He wills.
That would show respect of persons, that would show favortism.
ONLY if God choose someone esle over me because of something in that someone else, that would show favortism and make him a respector of person. But again, if God's choice to save someone over me is wrought about in God showing mercy on whom He wills, then its no longer by my works or of anything I do, but soley on the grounds of Grace that the person is saved.
But all through the Bible, God is looking for those that believe and place their trust in Him, and that is the basis of salvation.
God is not looking - He knows His sheep because He gave them faith. We arent sheep because we believe, but we believe because we are sheep. Faith is a gift purchased by Jesus' sacrifical death for God' sheep (the 'called out' ones from among both Jew and Gentiles).
Jesus couldn't perform miracles where He wanted to, because of their unbelief. It wasn't God's choice for them to not belief, it was man's choice. True, salvation is of the Lord, but He has already done the work. We need to do our part.
That would make salvation by synergistic and ultimately of works. Salvation is ALL of God, it is monergistic for Him to Get ALL the glory. Remember Phi. 2:12-13..."continue working out your salvation with fear and trembling, for the one bringing forth in you both the desire and the effort – for the sake of his good pleasure – is God." In no way am I denying human responsiblity, I'm just saying that the reason we do anything is because of God. All that said, I want to comment on the scripture you bought up because I think it pivots on what I'm trying to say. First, it is important to note that the reason that Jesus couldnt do the miracles wasnt because the people believe and thereby make Jesus dependant on people's belief to have His glory and power show forth. Rather, He didnt do the miricles because of the people's unbelief as a form of judgement. Here's a great example: Matt 11:20-24
Then Jesus began to criticize openly the cities in which he had done many of his miracles, because they did not repent. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you! And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? No, you will be thrown down to Hades! For if the miracles done among you had been done in Sodom, it would have continued to this day. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for the region of Sodom on the day of judgment than for you!”
The question you should ask if you are to be consistant to believe what you believe - namely that God does not blind certian people from believing in order that they may not be saved is, why did He not do the miricles in those named cities that those people would repented? What did Jesus say about that? And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’” (Mark 4:11-12) God has mercy on whom He has mercy on. His election is all through the Bible but most hide from it. I think when we embrace this truth and glory in it, we will come to both understand and appriciate God more.
John 1:12 says: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
Our part is to believe and receive. It is only after this that God gives us the power to become sons of God. Verse 13 expalins that we cannot be naturally born again (that is through natural birth), nor can we will ourselves saved apart from God (that is through following the Law in our flesh), nor by the will of any man (that is no else one can save you), but God (through His Spirit).
Again, who but the called out ones believe (1Cor 1:24)? God's election is based on God's sovereign choice to give faith to whom He wills. Therefore, only those appointed to eternal life will believe the gospel (Acts 13:48).
Israel are the children of promise. They have a separate covenant with God:
Some pastors like John Hagee, Perry Stone, and others believe this but I dont agree. The covernant is the same for ALL of Israel. Do not get confused over the word "Israel" as it is sometimes used both of God's people collectively (Jews and Gentiles in Christ) and natural Israel indivisually. Some of natural Israel, who incidentally are still of the promise and therefore will be saved, has had a partial hardening in order that gentiles may be granted into the promise (this is God's means by which all of Jesus' sheep will be gathered John 10:16). Therefore, when the fullness of the gentiles has come in (Romans 11:1), the harding on Israel will be removed and all of Israel (God's elect from both Jews and Gentiles around the world) will be saved. Do you see election in that? God's saving whom He wills again.
All Israel will be saved because of God's covenant with them. Jesus will appear as their Messiah and Israel will believe again.
All of Israel will be saved and Israel are the children of God made up of Jew and Gentiles believers in Christ. Do not suppose that God is going to reinact the sacrifical laws whereby Jews will be killing sheeps and goats to appease God. No, the sacrifice is already given and it is Christ Jesus. Only those trusting in the Messiah Yeshua Ha Masheck will be saved. The rest, both Jew and Gentile will follow the anti Christ and believe in Him.
S
Silas
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Dondi
So it is not as though people do not have the capability to believe in God, for God has manifested himself. It's just that they do not want to. They are without excuse. They have the witness of their conscince and God's creation. But back to your question, I am not promoting the idea of universalism. But I believe that God has given everyone enough revelation of Himself to at least bring them to the point that they know they are sinners in need of salvation, as indicated in their conscience and creation above. I do not believe that man is so deficient that he could not understand this and respond to whatever conviction is on their conscience. But he has two responses to chose from: he can either believe God or not believe God. That is why the lost are without excuse. For they know who God is, but are not willing to acknowledge Him.
I agree with all of that! That is why man is guilty!! Creation alone seals it. But, when coupled with the work of the Conscience, we KNOW that we break God's law "with knoweldge" that it is wrong and thus we KNOW inwardly that we've offended God and are in need of a Savior. Yet, no one comes - we hate truth and love the darkness rather than light. No one seeks!
"On the day of creation God looks at the stars that can swallow up a thousand of our suns, He looks at them and says all of you stars move yourself to this place and start in this order and move in a circle and move exaclty as I tell you until I give you another word. And they all obey Him! God says to the planets, pick yourself up and world make this formation on my command till I give you another word, and He looks at the mountians and tells them "be ye lifted up" and they obey Him. He tells the valleys "be casted down" and they ovey Him. Then God looks at the seas and says "Come this far" and the seas obey Him. Then He looks at man says says Come, and we say NO!" Look at the horrid wretchedness of sin! The volgarity, the prositution of sin, it is a horrid thing!" - Paul Washer
True, God has foreknowledge of who will be saved, but that doesn't imply that this is determinate of man's freedom to believe in God. The verses on predestination and foreordination are meant to describe what God will do for the the Body of Christ as a whole, that He wants Christians to be conformed into His image, which is the product of salvation.
Consider the following questions honestly and biblically: Who choose Abraham to faith - God or Ahraham? Who chose Moses to faith - God or Moses? Who choose the Apostles - them or God? Who choose you - You or God?
So it is not as though people do not have the capability to believe in God, for God has manifested himself. It's just that they do not want to. They are without excuse. They have the witness of their conscince and God's creation. But back to your question, I am not promoting the idea of universalism. But I believe that God has given everyone enough revelation of Himself to at least bring them to the point that they know they are sinners in need of salvation, as indicated in their conscience and creation above. I do not believe that man is so deficient that he could not understand this and respond to whatever conviction is on their conscience. But he has two responses to chose from: he can either believe God or not believe God. That is why the lost are without excuse. For they know who God is, but are not willing to acknowledge Him.
I agree with all of that! That is why man is guilty!! Creation alone seals it. But, when coupled with the work of the Conscience, we KNOW that we break God's law "with knoweldge" that it is wrong and thus we KNOW inwardly that we've offended God and are in need of a Savior. Yet, no one comes - we hate truth and love the darkness rather than light. No one seeks!
"On the day of creation God looks at the stars that can swallow up a thousand of our suns, He looks at them and says all of you stars move yourself to this place and start in this order and move in a circle and move exaclty as I tell you until I give you another word. And they all obey Him! God says to the planets, pick yourself up and world make this formation on my command till I give you another word, and He looks at the mountians and tells them "be ye lifted up" and they obey Him. He tells the valleys "be casted down" and they ovey Him. Then God looks at the seas and says "Come this far" and the seas obey Him. Then He looks at man says says Come, and we say NO!" Look at the horrid wretchedness of sin! The volgarity, the prositution of sin, it is a horrid thing!" - Paul Washer
True, God has foreknowledge of who will be saved, but that doesn't imply that this is determinate of man's freedom to believe in God. The verses on predestination and foreordination are meant to describe what God will do for the the Body of Christ as a whole, that He wants Christians to be conformed into His image, which is the product of salvation.
Consider the following questions honestly and biblically: Who choose Abraham to faith - God or Ahraham? Who chose Moses to faith - God or Moses? Who choose the Apostles - them or God? Who choose you - You or God?
Dondi
Well-Known Member
The Light is God's Word, His Revelation. It is the hope from God's word that stirs in our hearts the drive toward the Savior.
"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." - Hebrews 4:12
It is the Word (whether it is natural revelation, like the creation or conscience, or His written Word) that will activate the Spirit to stir in our hearts and bring conviction. But we still have the capability to accept and believe on that word, or not.
Consider the following questions honestly and biblically: Who choose Abraham to faith - God or Ahraham? Who chose Moses to faith - God or Moses? Who choose the Apostles - them or God? Who choose you - You or God?
God had a specific purpose in forming the nation of Israel, ultimately setting up the advent of the Savior. So naturally to bring forth this mission about, He did call people to perform specific tasks. But for the population at large, there is the general call to repent and obey God. It was set with conditions of blessings if obeyed, cursing if they were disobedient. It was conditional, just as salvation is conditional.
S
Silas
Guest
Dondi
The Light is God's Word, His Revelation. It is the hope from God's word that stirs in our hearts the drive toward the Savior. It is the Word (whether it is natural revelation, like the creation or conscience, or His written Word) that will activate the Spirit to stir in our hearts and bring conviction. But we still have the capability to accept and believe on that word, or not.
OK, then why dont all believe? You'll say, "cause they dont want to." I'll say "I agree!" Then I'll ask "Why did you, a child of wrath, a hater of God and lover of sin's pleasure, choose to believe?" What will you say...?
God had a specific purpose in forming the nation of Israel, ultimately setting up the advent of the Savior. So naturally to bring forth this mission about, He did call people to perform specific tasks.
So then, God called a unbeliever like Abraham to the faith and saved him. What of the rest, why didnt he bring them out of their land and saved them as well? Why did God save Naman only and not the rest of the gentiles in Iaiah's day? Why did God only save one widom woman in Elisha's day when there were so many?
But for the population at large, there is the general call to repent and obey God. It was set with conditions of blessings if obeyed, cursing if they were disobedient. It was conditional, just as salvation is conditional.
There is a general call to repent and obey God. Anyone who does lives and everyone who doesnt goes to hell. Praise God for His grace in election, else none would be going to Heaven.
The Light is God's Word, His Revelation. It is the hope from God's word that stirs in our hearts the drive toward the Savior. It is the Word (whether it is natural revelation, like the creation or conscience, or His written Word) that will activate the Spirit to stir in our hearts and bring conviction. But we still have the capability to accept and believe on that word, or not.
OK, then why dont all believe? You'll say, "cause they dont want to." I'll say "I agree!" Then I'll ask "Why did you, a child of wrath, a hater of God and lover of sin's pleasure, choose to believe?" What will you say...?
God had a specific purpose in forming the nation of Israel, ultimately setting up the advent of the Savior. So naturally to bring forth this mission about, He did call people to perform specific tasks.
So then, God called a unbeliever like Abraham to the faith and saved him. What of the rest, why didnt he bring them out of their land and saved them as well? Why did God save Naman only and not the rest of the gentiles in Iaiah's day? Why did God only save one widom woman in Elisha's day when there were so many?
But for the population at large, there is the general call to repent and obey God. It was set with conditions of blessings if obeyed, cursing if they were disobedient. It was conditional, just as salvation is conditional.
There is a general call to repent and obey God. Anyone who does lives and everyone who doesnt goes to hell. Praise God for His grace in election, else none would be going to Heaven.
BlaznFattyz
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all the copy and paste you did says nothing to counter what i said early or i didnt see it, and im not sure if you were arguing the attributes of god?
you own words show that god is holy, the holy spirit is holy, and jesus is holy. it also shows that god is perfect and righteous and jesus is perfect and righteous. furthermore, the bible goes on to say all three take their part in creation, resurrection, and the good news, and for god to do these things the the holy spirit and jesus are involved.
the reason all three have the same attributes is because all three are god all doing the will of the father and all pointing to salvation thru christ.
M
mee
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yes the bible is our guide , and Jehovahs people , always stick to bible teaching , it leads to great blessings .
This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. John 17;3 taste and see that Jehovah is Good.
"Oh taste and see that Jehovah is good."—Ps. 34:8,
M
mee
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if we stick to the bible we cant go wrong,
That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,
You alone are the Most High over all the earth. psalm83;18BlaznFattyz
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M
mee
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"Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of armies. The fullness of all the earth is his glory." (Isaiah 6:3, 4) Singing the word "holy" three times gave it special emphasis, and rightly so, for Jehovah is holy to the superlative degree. (Revelation 4:8) Jehovah’s holiness is emphasized throughout the Bible. Hundreds of verses associate his name with the words "holy" and "holiness.
BlaznFattyz
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