In the beginning was the Logos

juantoo3

juantoo3

....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Messages
10,065
Reaction score
2,088
Points
108
Location
up to my arse in alligators
In response to a question on another thread I thought it well to begin this study:

----------
King James Version for John 1:1-14​

Jhn 1:1 In [1722] the beginning [746] was [2258] (5713) the Word [3056], and [2532] the Word [3056] was [2258] (5713) with [4314] God [2316], and [2532] the Word [3056] was [2258] (5713) God [2316].

Jhn 1:2 The same [3778] was [2258] (5713) in [1722] the beginning [746] with [4314] God [2316].

Jhn 1:3 All things [3956] were made [1096] (5633) by [1223] him [846]; and [2532] without [5565] him [846] was [1096] [0] not [3761] any thing [1520] made [1096] (5633) that [3739] was made [1096] (5754).

Jhn 1:4 In [1722] him [846] was [2258] (5713) life [2222]; and [2532] the life [2222] was [2258] (5713) the light [5457] of men [444].

Jhn 1:5 And [2532] the light [5457] shineth [5316] (5719) in [1722] darkness [4653]; and [2532] the darkness [4653] comprehended [2638] (5627) it [846] not [3756].

Jhn 1:6 There was [1096] (5633) a man [444] sent [649] (5772) from [3844] God [2316], whose [846] name [3686] [was] John [2491].

Jhn 1:7 The same [3778] came [2064] (5627) for [1519] a witness [3141], to [2443] bear witness [3140] (5661) of [4012] the Light [5457], that [2443] all [3956] [men] through [1223] him [846] might believe [4100] (5661).

Jhn 1:8 He was [2258] (5713) not [3756] that [1565] Light [5457], but [235] [was sent] to [2443] bear witness [3140] (5661) of [4012] that Light [5457].

Jhn 1:9 [That] was [2258] (5713) the true [228] Light [5457], which [3739] lighteth [5461] (5719) every man [3956] [444] that cometh [2064] (5740) into [1519] the world [2889].

Jhn 1:10 He was [2258] (5713) in [1722] the world [2889], and [2532] the world [2889] was made [1096] (5633) by [1223] him [846], and [2532] the world [2889] knew [1097] (5627) him [846] not [3756].

Jhn 1:11 He came [2064] (5627) unto [1519] his own [2398], and [2532] his own [2398] received [3880] (5627) him [846] not [3756].

Jhn 1:12 But [1161] as many as [3745] received [2983] (5627) him [846], to them [846] gave he [1325] (5656) power [1849] to become [1096] (5635) the sons [5043] of God [2316], [even] to them that believe [4100] (5723) on [1519] his [846] name [3686]:

Jhn 1:13 Which [3739] were born [1080] (5681), not [3756] of [1537] blood [129], nor [3761] of [1537] the will [2307] of the flesh [4561], nor [3761] of [1537] the will [2307] of man [435], but [235] of [1537] God [2316].

Jhn 1:14 And [2532] the Word [3056] was made [1096] (5633) flesh [4561], and [2532] dwelt [4637] (5656) among [1722] us [2254], (and [2532] we beheld [2300] (5662) his [846] glory [1391], the glory [1391] as [5613] of the only begotten [3439] of [3844] the Father [3962],) full [4134] of grace [5485] and [2532] truth [225].

Blue Letter Bible

-----------
Greek for 3056
Pronunciation Guide
logos {log'-os}
TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 4:69,505 from 3004
Part of Speech
n m
Outline of Biblical Usage

1) of speech

a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea

b) what someone has said

1) a word

2) the sayings of God

3) decree, mandate or order

4) of the moral precepts given by God

5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets

6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim

c) discourse

1) the act of speaking, speech

2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking

3) a kind or style of speaking

4) a continuous speaking discourse - instruction

d) doctrine, teaching

e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative

f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law

g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed

2) its use as respect to the MIND alone

a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating

b) account, i.e. regard, consideration

c) account, i.e. reckoning, score

d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment

e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation

1) reason would

f) reason, cause, ground

3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.

++++
A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe. This word was well suited to John's purpose in John 1.

Blue Letter Bible

-----------
3056. lŏgŏs, log'-os; from 3004; something said (incl. the thought); by impl. a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive, by extens. a computation; spec. (with the art. in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ):---
account, cause, communication, x concerning, doctrine, fame, x have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(ing), shew, x speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

3004. lĕgō, leg' -o; a primary verb; prop. to "lay" forth, i.e. (fig.) relate (in words), usually a systematic or set discourse; whereas 2036 and 5346 generally refer to an individual expression…

-Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, James Strong, Copyright 1995, 1996 by Thomas Nelson Publishers.
 
Kindest Regards, China Cat!

I trust this is a suitable start.
China Cat Sunflower said:
I don't know how to make a coherent whole out of the various Jesus persons implied in the NT. One problem is that I can't find any reference to a specific, much less divine messiah in the OT. I don't see where they were looking for a specific person to come along and be the messiah. Perhaps this was a later adaptation of the zealot movements, perhaps they were looking for a messiah in the mold of Darius, but I can't find any specific reference to that. And I don't see anywhere in the OT where such a person, divine or not, would be expected to reverse "fallen nature", or mitigate "original sin", or take the place of the sacrificial lamb. To be clear, I'm saying that without looking through the NT lense, I don't find these concepts extant in the OT.

OTOH, the Logos is an all encompassing and totally groovy concept. But I can't figure out a way to tie IT into these other concepts.
Click to expand...
It would probably help to have some Jewish input, perhaps we can ask Dauer to join in at some point. So I will proceed using a few basic presumptions, presumptions I hope are not too far off base.

One of the first things I noted in looking at the Concordance definitions is the deliberateness of the discourse; systematic or set discourse, and the relation to computation. Set this aside the creative power of the spoken tetragrammaton and the tradition that G-d spoke the word or made the sound, and it came to be.

"In the beginning, G-d spoke, and it came into existence, and it was good."

Right here alone, "the word" (logos) takes on an entirely different frame of reference than I ever heard in sunday school. It demonstrates how severely wanting the English translation is.

Now, I do see reference that I am trying to consider with a grain of salt, where distinct biased reference to Jesus is made. However, one part of that reference that cannot be denied is the use of the article before "logos," in other words: The Logos, not just any logos. There is a similar issue between the sixth day creation of humans (male and female) and the eighth day creation of The man Adam. So the reference is pretty obviously not to just any ol' verbal discourse, it is about a specific discourse. One could reasonably imply it is about the specific Creative discourse of G-d, considering the context. Of course, this presupposes a Jewish teaching in this general direction, of which I cannot confirm. (Hmmm, afterthought: I wonder if there is also a Greek / Pagan mythos to this effect as well...?)

So if I am reading the OP question correctly, it has to do with whether or not the Christian Messiah is the physical manifestation in human form of the Creative Discourse; the spoken Word of G-d. Now, is this unique and singularly Jewish...or is this an extension of Pagan mythos...or is this some politically contrived conglomeration? It is at this point where I lose the scent...I don't know. I know what I want the answer to be, but my scholarship will not allow me to take that huge of a leap of faith without some better anecdotal evidence.

This is all presuming that the words of the Gospel of John are at least inspired, and at least pointing to the great hope, and that they are not a prefab cattle prod to keep the masses dull and ignorant.
 
Juan...I admire your efforts in attempting to define the meaning of the "word".

But I have come to posit and believe that "word" used in this biblical context is a symbolic representation for what must have been truly unique about Jesus...his genome. No other definitions or explanations about these opening passages of John make any sense to me any more, other than this explanation.

Jesus came to that time from the future to show us what we all must become. And that time is running out right about now, in our time, I believe.

flow....:cool:
 
Kindest Regards, flow!
flowperson said:
I have come to posit and believe that "word" used in this biblical context is a symbolic representation for what must have been truly unique about Jesus...his genome. No other definitions or explanations about these opening passages of John make any sense to me any more, other than this explanation.

Jesus came to that time from the future to show us what we all must become. And that time is running out right about now, in our time, I believe.
Click to expand...
An interesting POV! Care to expound?
 
Ah Juan, this is an interesting topic! I can't concentrate right now because there are too many other things going on. I've never been worth a darn when it comes to multi-tasking. If not tonight tomorrow. This deserves a decent response.

Chris
 
Hi Guys--

Thought I'd post the following link. You probably already know all this stuff, but I found it helpful in understanding the discussion a little better, and so for anyone reading....

Glossary

I realize this has little or no Jewish input, so I look forward to that if it comes about.

Flow--the genome thing--intriguing!

Well, there's lots I'd like to add, but I am thinking that it may sound too clumsy at this point. :)

Thanks for the thread, Juan!

InPeace,
InLove
 
Namaste all, great stuff, IL your link provides plenty of thought as do the previous posts..

There was another thread earlier on the Power of Words

My post there stated thoughts similar to what I'm thinking here.

BB or Dauer recently mentioned (paraphrased) that our tongues have so much power that G-d put two walls in front of them, our teeth and lips.

As you all are aware I know we we are co-creators. On both the physical (invention) level and spiritual (manifestation) level.

Our connection to source is most definitely expressed/analogous to our use of words, thought, and faith which activate the existence that is the logos/G-d.

Napolean Hill- If you can conceive it and believe it you can achieve it.

When we think and say our desires the entire universe conspires to prove ourselves right. The variety of manifestations are a result of our ambiquity in the matter.

I derive such comfort in personal responsibility, knowing that all that crosses my path is of my doing, and changing it is upto me....and that scripture says this so clearly to me. Thank you for the thread Juan.
 
Hi Guys:

Juan...nothing to expound upon really. It's just that after twenty years or so of research and writing on this stuff along with the experience of working with brilliant scientists and engineers for a stretch, it's just part of a set of conclusions and beliefs that I reached sometime ago.

Another is that G-d changes our realities through manipulations of underlying time and space to serve the purposes of creating a viable future for life's continuance, and perhaps does not always attach so much importance to human life in His-Her natural works.

Yes wil, we are co-creators, but if we insist upon continuously creating more death in the future than life as we have so successfully done for about 150 years now, well.... In their own prescient ways scientists are being as stern and serious as they can be about this global warming stuff. From what's been said in the media about it this week, they're telling us that political and economic expedience must be secondary in solving this thing . Of necessity, since they generate the bulk of original basic knowledge about our realities, they wiil have to lead us all through the fairly wrenching changes we must undergo.The real tragedy here is that this knowledge began to seriously emerge thirty years ago, and still it seems that no one is seriously listening or cares much in the legislatures and executive offices of the USA.

I was convinced sometime ago that we are all trying to deal with the problems of the future with fairly ancient and archaic philosophies and ritualized methodologies. I know that Thomas will likely jump all over this, but if one pays attention to the news these days, at least this much seems true to me. We can learn from the past traditions to only a certain extent, and then they begin to not apply so well. In our age, technology is trumping traditional methods of judging morality within societies.

Way past the time for a big set of changes IMHO. I'm really a happy and optomistic person most of the time, but the last ten years or so has definitely curbed my enthusiasm for the future in some important ways.

flow....:cool:
 
Hi Juantoo – interesting and well-ordered topic ... congratulations.

Greetings to you all. As ever, a huge topic to cover, but I thought I might 'pop in' some stuff from, as ever, the orthodox Catholic position.

As a footnote, for a long time I thought the use of the term 'Word' as a translation of the Latin Verbum, itself a tranlation of the Greek 'Logos', was woefully inadequate in conveying the full philosophical dimension of the Greek. Technically I think that remains the case, but theologically and spiritually, I think 'Word' transmits far, for more.

I would add that the expression 'word' is far more in keeping with Hebraic thought – this is not to say that Hebrew thinking was lacking a philosophical dimension, but that philosophy itself, 'the love of wisdom' as the Greeks defined it, finds its expression in the mythopoeic narrative form, rather than in the rhetorical method of the Greeks.

+++

Hi Chris –
"I don't know how to make a coherent whole out of the various Jesus persons implied in the NT. One problem is that I can't find any reference to a specific, much less divine messiah in the OT. I don't see where they were looking for a specific person to come along and be the messiah."

The word 'messiah' means annointed, and in scripture the term can be applied broadly, to a High Priest, a Prophet, a King, and one can rightly argue back and forth all day, it is the Hebraic genius to do so (... a recent realisation of mine - philosophy 'stops' when one assumes an answer, philosophy lives in the discourse – it is a dynamic operation, anyway ...) so one could argue that Abraham was annointed of God, his calling, to become a 'father of nations', is hard to read as not messianic.

The paradigm shift can be traced in the events of the Babylonian exile (6thcenturyBC). The Jews have lost the Ark of the Covenant, the Temple, the city of Jerusalem, their kings and their land. They are a people dispossed, the diaspora. The prophets began to talk of messianism in a whole different context, and here is the foundation of a spiritual and eschatalogical messianism.

Jeremiah:
3:15 "Then I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will lead you with knowledge and understanding."

Do a search for the term 'shepherd' in the OT and there you will find the foundation of messianism (as well as other references, of course, to the 'false shepherds' etc.)

And I don't see anywhere in the OT where such a person, divine or not, would be expected to reverse "fallen nature", or mitigate "original sin", or take the place of the sacrificial lamb. To be clear, I'm saying that without looking through the NT lense, I don't find these concepts extant in the OT.

Remember that the Messiah was not necessarily divine, his function, as the Jews saw it, was to lead the people to 'the Promised Land' – God would arrange the rest. They had found it once, and through their own fault lost it, and since then had lived under the Babylonians, the Persians, the Greeks, and now the Romans. To the zealot a messiah might be a war leader, like the Maccabbees, but then there is the risk of rise and fall, rise and fall ... so the theologian began to look for not an 'example' of a Messiah (as the Patriarchs had been) but an embodiment of the Principle of Messianism ... what they did not forsee, of course, was the Incarnation ... they could not correlate 'messiah' with 'suffering servant'.

the Logos is an all encompassing and totally groovy concept. But I can't figure out a way to tie IT into these other concepts.

The key here is 'wisdom' – read and contemplate this, in light of the Prolegomenon of John:

Proverbs Chapter 8:
"The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways,
before he made any thing from the beginning.

I was set up from eternity, and of old,
before the earth was made.

The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived,
neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out.

The mountains, with their huge bulk, had not as yet been established:
before the hills, I was brought forth:

He had not yet made the earth, nor the rivers,
nor the poles of the world.

When he prepared the heavens, I was present:
when with a certain law, and compass, he enclosed the depths:

When he established the sky above,
and poised the fountains of waters:

When he compassed the sea with its bounds,
and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their limits:
when he balanced the foundations of the earth;

I was with him forming all things:
and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times;

Playing in the world:
and my delights were to be with the children of men.

Now, therefore, ye children, hear me:
blessed are they that keep my ways.

Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.

Blessed is the man that heareth me,
and that watcheth daily at my gates,
and waiteth at the posts of my doors.

He that shall find me, shall find life,
and shall have salvation from the Lord.

But he that shall sin against me shall hurt his own soul.
All that hate me love death.

+++

Oh my Dear Lord (this is me talking, not Proverbs!) – how better might Wisdom sum up those last lines, than:
"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life."

God bless,

Thomas
 
Awesome post as always, Thomas!

I have always been drawn to the books of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, especially the discourse on wisdom. I have long held for myself to treasure wisdom above knowledge.

I had hoped to hear China Cat chime in on this by now...seeing as he is the instigator.

I probably should dig out my old philosophy text, that's where my notes are on this subject of the Logos.

I did print out a little material about the Stoic philosophy, it was in that context we addressed this in class. Since stoicism was a significant player in the Pagan world of the first century AD, including Roman Emperors, I thought it might be somewhat revealing regarding my thought about Pagan connections. I'll have to save it for a bit though, haven't had time yet to go through it and make anything coherent out of it. ;)
 
Hi juantoo –

I have always been drawn to the books of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, especially the discourse on wisdom. I have long held for myself to treasure wisdom above knowledge.

Wise man!
"Think of the Lord in goodness, and seek him in simplicity of heart. For he is found by them that tempt him not: and he sheweth himself to them that have faith in him." (Wisdom 1:1-2)

I had hoped to hear China Cat chime in on this by now...
So had I.

I probably should dig out my old philosophy text, that's where my notes are on this subject of the Logos.
Can I have a copy? :) (Maybe we should look at Colossians sometime? 1:12-20, very Stoic!)

I did print out a little material about the Stoic philosophy...
I'm just finishing an essay on Wisdom Literature, specifically on a comparison of Proverbs and Wisdom. My direction is that Proverbs is Hebrew (and regional), Wisdom is Greek, and influenced by Stoicism, Platonism, etc.

The theology is no different, but the lexicon of Greek opens up the mythopoeic Hebrew of an Immanent and Personal God to an inspired contemplation of the Transcendent Principle and the immortality of the soul by theosis.

(Good grief, I've just read that back before posting, do I always come across as such a smart****? You've got to admit it sounds really impressive! I only wish my essay was half as good. )

My next essay is on 'Matthew and the synoptic problem' so that'll be 'solved' in four weeks – but if we want to continue with the Logos, I'm all for it, and anything you've got, I'll devour it!

Pax,

Thomas
(Must get back to it, 97% there, only 100 words to go!)
 
I'm sorry. Life intervened these past few days and I kinda forgot what I was thinking about. We were talking about seperating the Greek and Jewish influences. Messiah is a Jewish idea, Logos Greek. But I find that what makes the Logos-Christ concept work in my mind is the synthesis of the Genesis creation myth and the Logos concept. God speaking through the agency of the Logos becomes the mechanism of the creative and sustaining matrix of life.

I can't help thinking of other creation myths where the Creator sings life into existence. I was thinking of that when I mentioned that the gematria of the the Greek name Jesus works out to a numerical value of 888, and that the ratio, or logos (little l) of the whole tone between the two tetra chords, or perfect fourths, that make up an octave is, coincidentally,.888. When I think of the Logos, I'm thinking of that agency, or pattern of force, that brings harmony to life and encourages everything to expand and grow. What's interesing about the the whole tone placed between the two chords is the anaolgy of Christ being the connection between the original "song" of creation, and the "new song".

Behold the might of the new song! It has made men out of stones, men out of beasts. Those, moreover, that were as dead, not being partakers of the true life, have come to life again, simply by becoming listeners to this song. It also composed the universe into melodious order, and tuned the discord of the elements to harmonious arrangement, so that the whole world might become harmony. It let loose the fluid ocean, and yet has prevented it from encroaching on the land. The earth, again, which had been in a state of commotion, it has established, and fixed the sea as its boundary. The violence of fire it has softened by the atmosphere, as the Dorian is blended with the Lydian strain; and the harsh cold of the air it has moderated by the embrace of fire, harmoniously arranging these the extreme tones of the universe. And this deathless strain,the support of the whole and the harmony of all,--reaching from the centre to the circumference, and from the extremities to the central part, has harmonized this universal frame of things, not according to the Thracian music, which is like that invented by Jubal, but according to the paternal counsel of God, which fired the zeal of David. And He who is of David, and yet before him, the Word of God, despising the lyre and harp, which are but lifeless instruments, and having tuned by the Holy Spirit the universe, and especially man,--who, composed of body and soul, is a universe in miniature,makes melody to God on this instrument of many tones; and to this intrument--I mean man--he sings accordant: "For thou art my harp, and pipe, and temple." --a harp for harmony--a pipe by reason of the Spirit a temple by reason of the word; so that the first may sound, the second breathe, the third contain the Lord. And David the king, the harper whom we mentioned a little above, who exhorted to the truth and dissuaded from idols, was so far from celebrating demons in song, that in reality they were driven away by his music. Thus, when Saul was plagued with a demon, he cured him by merely playing. A beautiful breathing instrument of music the Lord made man, after His own image. And He Himself also, surely, who is the supramundane Wisdom, the celestial Word, is the all-harmonious, melodious, holy instrument of God. What, then, does this instrument--the Word of God, the Lord, the New Song--desire? To open the eyes of the blind, and unstop the ears of the deaf, and to lead the lame or the erring to righteousness, to exhibit God to the foolish, to put a stop to corruption, to conquer death, to reconcile disobedient children to their father. The instrument of God loves mankind. The Lord pities, instructs, exhorts, admonishes, saves, shields, and of His bounty promises us the kingdom of heaven as a reward for learning; and the only advantage He reaps is, that we are saved. For wickedness feeds on men's destruction; but truth, like the bee, harming nothing, delights only in the salvation of men.

This is the New Song, the manifestation of the Word that was in the beginning, and before the beginning....

Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Heathen
Click to expand...


One more interesting little thing that ties in with the musical analogy is that the whole tone between the two perfect fourths is itself discordanent. Which reminds me of Jesus saying that he comes not to bring peace, but with a sword. Maybe that's pushing the analogy too far.


Anyway, those are my thoughts as of now...

Chris
 
It's my understanding that everything- from sub atomic particals upwards is a vibration in the 'whatever the hell it is this week scientists think makes up the universe' (can I be old-fashiond and call it 'the either'?)(ok, that's sarcasm but it does seem to chop and change quite a bit) which, when you think about it kinda ties in nicely with the whole idea of 'God said...' or the creator singing the universe into existance.
 
Oh yes! That's why I now favour 'Verbum' over 'Logos'.

Thomas
 
Just finished my essay ... breaks into song ... glad you can't hear, the only singing I can do is dischordants ...
 
...trying...to respond...thinking...too much...can't...reach...

(thin trickle of blood from ear clots on keyboard...)(feet sticking to rice paper)

Reading, thinking, don't know how to respond yet.

Enjoying...please to continue...
 
I dunno, the Logos is such a huge an all-encompassing thing...it's hard to know where to begin. "The principle that makes everything work"? I can't come up with an adequate description. When I think of it I think of physics, and pythagorean stuff, and what makes an arch hold a building up. Mathematics, and music theory, and art, and proportion. What the metaphysical "structure" of the cosmos might be. What I don't undrstand is what a Jewish messiah's connection to that might be. Why would the thing that makes everything work come as a human, and how does his death fundamentally change the existing order? I mean, the connection with creation metaphysics works out nicely, but all this other stuff about being a savour, sacrificial lamb, etc.... I don't understand the tie-in.

Chris
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
Messiah is a Jewish idea, Logos Greek. But I find that what makes the Logos-Christ concept work in my mind is the synthesis of the Genesis creation myth and the Logos concept.
Click to expand...
Just read/heard somewhere recently Christ is Greek for annointed? So the Christ movement was due to the oil poured?? Who poured the oil?? Her name was to be with his forever?? Gotta go back and read...
 
juantoo3 said:
[746] [2258] (5713) [3056], and [2532] [3056] [2258] (5713) [4314] God [2316] [2532] [3056] was [2258] (5713) [2316]....etc
Click to expand...

What are these numbers, which you all understand, and I don't? Would somebody explain for me, please?
Thanks
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top