Temple's Location Found.

[Dor]

[FONT=Palatino, Book Antiqua, Times New Roman, Georgia, Times] Using maps created in 1866 by a British explorer and passages from the Jewish Mishnah, an Israeli archaeologist and professor at Hebrew University says he has pinpointed the location of the sacred Jewish Temple, twice built and twice destroyed in ancient times. [/FONT]
[FONT=Palatino, Book Antiqua, Times New Roman, Georgia, Times]While popular consensus places the Temple, built by King Solomon in the 10th century B.C. and rebuilt by Jews who returned from Babylon in the 5th century B.C., on the site of the present Muslim Dome of the Rock, Prof. Joseph Patrich says archaeological remains show its exact location – and the consensus is wrong. [/FONT]

[FONT=Palatino, Book Antiqua, Times New Roman, Georgia, Times]WorldNetDaily: Temple's location found, says Israeli archaeologist[/FONT]

If he is right then it opens up the possibility of rebuilding the Temple.

 

[Faithfulservant]

If this is true then its another thing out of the way in the prophetic countdown..

It leaves it open for Israel to ally with the anti-christ for a peace treaty in which the temple will be rebuilt as part of it. 3 1/2 years into this peace treaty the anti-christ will set himself up on the throne in the temple and demand to be worshipped as God.. this is called the abomination of desolation.. at which point Gods wrath will be spilled out on the earth and the earth will be in the great tribulation. Israel as this point will know they have been deceived..

 

[Prober]

If this is true then its another thing out of the way in the prophetic countdown..

It leaves it open for Israel to ally with the anti-christ for a peace treaty in which the temple will be rebuilt as part of it. 3 1/2 years into this peace treaty the anti-christ will set himself up on the throne in the temple and demand to be worshipped as God.. this is called the abomination of desolation.. at which point Gods wrath will be spilled out on the earth and the earth will be in the great tribulation. Israel as this point will know they have been deceived..

Um, yeah...I and maybe 20% of the knesset would agree with you...

 

[bananabrain]

i don't think it's correct for this to be characterised as the Temple being "found". we know where it is - it's on top of mount moriah, although the exact location, as you say, remains unresolved.

consensus and tradition indeed identifies the "rock" of the "dome of the rock" as the 'even shetiyah, which was both the altar on which isaac was nearly sacrificed as well, incidentally, as the spot on which adam was Formed before he was Placed in eden. i'm not aware of this archaeologist, but i dare say this is an argument for archaeologists to have.

the political and religious implications, however, remain enormous. it would indeed be extremely convenient if we didn't have to knock the mosque down to build the third Temple, however - although there are some sources that say that the rebuilt Temple will be made "of light"; we don't quite know what this means unless it signifies some method of "virtualising" the Temple space somehow.

If he is right then it opens up the possibility of rebuilding the Temple.

but this possibility already existed - this is not a new opportunity. we have had the possibility of rebuilding the Temple since 1967 when the israelis took possession of the whole of jerusalem. the reason we haven't done it is because the Messiah hasn't come yet and the religious authorities (not that they have the authority to make this happen) would view rebuilding the Temple before the Messiah shows up as forbidden. in fact, it's forbidden for a jew to set foot on the Temple mount in case s/he walks on any of the especially-holy bits, which, as we don't know precisely where they are, we need to steer clear of. there are of course a selection of various fools, nutters and fanatics that think that we can force the Messiah to show up by rebuilding the Temple and are keen to destroy the mosque, but this option remains the preserve of the lunatic fringe for obvious reasons.

It leaves it open for Israel to ally with the anti-christ for a peace treaty in which the temple will be rebuilt as part of it.

i'm sure i don't need to point out that the idea that the jews will ally with the "anti-christ" is incredibly offensive.

3 1/2 years into this peace treaty the anti-christ will set himself up on the throne in the temple and demand to be worshipped as G!D.. this is called the abomination of desolation..

no it isn't. the "abomination of desolation" (and indeed the 'alliance with the anti-christ', i believe) refers to events that have already happened, more than 2200 years ago in fact - when assimilationist jews allied with the seleucid greeks and their ruler, antiochus, may his name be blotted out, defiled the Temple by putting idols in it and setting himself up as a deity to be ruled instead of G!D. the result, of course, was the maccabee rebellion and the victory of the hasmonean dynasty, together with the miraculous preservation of the Temple, commemorated to this day by the festival of hanukkah. this fits the bill far better than apocalyptic prophecies of the future and, frankly, it's going to be pretty unpleasant in the middle east if this point of view keeps getting pushed by christians who are ignorant of the true nature of these prophecies.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Faithfulservant]

Im sure I sound far out and completely flakey to you.. Im not going to argue our beliefs because I know that your people believe that already happened.. We are told that we are to trust a prophet until they make one claim that doesnt come true and so far we havent seen one. The bible has been spot on so far.. so I have to believe what I believe.

But I am happy that you at least know what we believe because if we are right and suddenly a few million people disappear for no apparent reason then you will know and maybe you will distrust that person who is going to seem to be such a friend of Israel that brings peace to your people who will turn out to be the enemy of G!D and Israel. There are 144,000 of G!ds remnant of the tribes of Israel who will evangelize the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit will be upon you and yours and you will know the truth.

If we are wrong.. then oh well you dont lose anything.

If we are right... I look forward to embracing you as my brother in Christ Jesus as He reigns as King of King and Lord of Lords over this earth and for eternity.

its a win - win situation...

Im either completely delusional in my beliefs...

or G!ds telling you whats going to happen in the future so you are ready.

You must think we are wacked.. but BB I have an overwhelming love for you and your people and you/they are in my prayers every single day... I love you because through you I am blessed because of you I am saved.. you are the apple of my G!ds eye.. and I am so excited for you that would almost become envy but for the grace of G!d.

You can flame me if you want.. you can cut me with your words and its ok.

G!D Bless You

 

[Faithfulservant]

Just to clarify why we call it the abomination of desolation.. this man after helping your people rebuild the temple after being lauded as your messiah hes going to walk into the holy of holies and declare himself God.

 

[InLove]

Dear Faithfulservant and Bananabrain,

I would like to take an opportunity here while it's so available. I know maybe both of you think I'm a nut, too, but I am really learning through your discussion here. Thank you.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Faithfulservant]

I would never think you a nut and I hope that I always have a teachable spirit too.

​

 

[kenod]

Just to clarify why we call it the abomination of desolation.. this man after helping your people rebuild the temple after being lauded as your messiah hes going to walk into the holy of holies and declare himself God.

Do you think it is possible that this is the "temple" that 2 Thes 2:4 is referring to?

Eph 2:19-22
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

It is interesting that both the 'man of sin' and Judas are referred to as 'son of perdition'. Could this 'man of sin' be some man in the church, before whom people are willing to bend the knee, and call 'Holy Father'?

 

[Faithfulservant]

Do you think it is possible that this is the "temple" that 2 Thes 2:4 is referring to?

Eph 2:19-22
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

It is interesting that both the 'man of sin' and Judas are referred to as 'son of perdition'. Could this 'man of sin' be some man in the church, before whom people are willing to bend the knee, and call 'Holy Father'?

Judas died.. The holy temple is Jesus Christ in heaven that pertains to the church or the body of Christ... the temple in Jerusalem belongs to the Jews.. that is between God and them.

I dont believe the anti-christ is the pope either..


"What is the abomination of desolation?"

Answer: Matthew 24:15, “So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel - let the reader understand.” This Scripture is referring to Daniel 9:27, “He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” In 167 B.C. a Greek ruler by the name of Antiochus Epiphanies set up an altar to Zeus over the altar of burnt offerings in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. He also sacrificed an pig on the altar in the Temple in Jerusalem. This event is known as the “abomination of desolation.”

Jesus, in Matthew 24:15, was speaking some 200 years after the abomination of desolation had already occurred. So, Jesus must have been prophesying that some time in the future the abomination of desolation would reoccur in a Jewish temple in Jerusalem. Most Bible prophesy interpreters believe that Jesus was referring to the antichrist, who will do something very similar to what Antiochus Epiphanies did. This is confirmed by the fact that some of what Daniel prophesied in Daniel 9:27 did not occur in 167 B.C. with Antiochus Epiphanies. Antiochus did not confirm a covenant with Israel for seven years. It is the antichrist who in the end times will establish a covenant with Israel for seven years and then break it by doing something similar to the abomination of desolation in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem.

 

[bananabrain]

We are told that we are to trust a prophet until they make one claim that doesnt come true and so far we haven't seen one. The bible has been spot on so far.. so I have to believe what I believe.

on the contrary, there are many prophecies that have not yet come true as far as we are concerned (i don't remember ten non-jews catching hold of the fringes of my prayer shawl and saying "let us go with you, for we have heard that G!D is with you" any time recently). through long and painful experience, we have learned to treat prophecy interpretation as a highly subjective art, which relies upon a variety of other supports rather than our own individual opinions.

But I am happy that you at least know what we believe because if we are right and suddenly a few million people disappear for no apparent reason then you will know

the "rapture", right? well, i'd say that would start to look a little bit more like proof and, yes, that would be kind of worrying, hur hur hur.

maybe you will distrust that person who is going to seem to be such a friend of Israel that brings peace to your people who will turn out to be the enemy of G!D and Israel

at the moment, the people that fit that bill rather better than anyone are the evangelical and mostly american christians who are supporting right-wing zealots in israel in the hope that it triggers armageddon. friends like that we could do without.

If we are wrong.. then oh well you dont lose anything.

yep, that's pascal's wager. mind you, pascal himself was given considerable pause for thought by our survival against all historical odds.

its a win - win situation...

unless i end up damned, of course - but i guess the question is not only whether it turns out to be a second or first coming, but also what kind of mood he's in when he shows up. he's going to have an awful backlog in his inbox based on the number of halakhic rulings that are in abeyance until he can break the logjam.

you can flame me if you want.. you can cut me with your words and its ok.

ah, faithfulservant, why would i do that? i know i can be a bit waspish from time to time but there's nothing malicious about it. you're not an idiot, you believe what you believe and more power to you; but as it says in the holy zohar:

"not in man do i trust, nor in any angelic being, but in the Holy Blessed One, Whose Torah is True."

this man after helping your people rebuild the temple after being lauded as your messiah hes going to walk into the holy of holies and declare himself God.

well, this is kind of the point, isn't it? such a blasphemy would not go unanswered. that would be prima facie evidence that we had followed a false Messiah - *again*!

you have to understand, faithfulservant, that we have had a number of false messiahs, some of whom were very successful and were widely believed in. read up on this guy: Sabbatai Zevi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and this even worse one: Jacob Frank - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - in fact, this is unfortunately going on at the moment (The Lubavitcher Rebbe as a god <br><br> - Haaretz - Israel News) in the lubavitch sect of the hasidim. it would be very upsetting, but it wouldn't mean the end of judaism.

Jesus, in Matthew 24:15, was speaking some 200 years after the abomination of desolation had already occurred. So, Jesus must have been prophesying that some time in the future the abomination of desolation would reoccur in a Jewish temple in Jerusalem.

or he was wrong, or there was something suspicious about that particular bit of the text. of course, those options are not open to christians.

This is confirmed by the fact that some of what Daniel prophesied in Daniel 9:27 did not occur in 167 B.C. with Antiochus Epiphanies. Antiochus did not confirm a covenant with Israel for seven years.

a quick google confirms that this is something a lot of christians are very excited about. the prophecies of daniel are not my area of expertise, but i shall investigate further and let you know what i find out.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[bananabrain]

aha! i found this: it seems that the abomination of desolation in daniel 9 can also be understood as referring to king herod agrippa, who lived around the same time as jesus and suffered a horrible fate when he accepted Divine status just as he was expected to be declared to be the Messiah. there are a number of sources for this, but i know it best from robert graves' "i, claudius". i'll check and find out if it's in josephus or somewhere like that. a lot of it hinges on whether the hebrew says "the Messiah", as it does in the translation - and, in fact, it doesn't. it says *a* messiah, in the sense of "an anointed one" (the literal meaning of MaShIaH) which can refer to any king or indeed the high priest. however, it seems that the most likely candidate may very well be herod:

http://www.torahatlanta.com/articles/Debunking Isaiah & Daniel.htm

it's quite technical but worth the read.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Faithfulservant]

Thanks for the links BB

at the moment, the people that fit that bill rather better than anyone are the evangelical and mostly american christians who are supporting right-wing zealots in israel in the hope that it triggers armageddon. friends like that we could do without.

This confuses me.. are you talking about stuff like this?

Israel Bless God.com

One of my radio pastors was personally responsible for stopping the gay rights parade from marching on the holy streets of Jerusalem.. I guess you could be talking about him..

Mission Valley Christian Fellowship - Petition 2005

What about us standing behind them in whatever they do because we know that blessing Israel in turn God blesses us.

unless i end up damned, of course - but i guess the question is not only whether it turns out to be a second or first coming, but also what kind of mood he's in when he shows up. he's going to have an awful backlog in his inbox based on the number of halakhic rulings that are in abeyance until he can break the logjam.

Lol yeah that mood.. I somehow dont think you need to worry about it BB.. I believe in the power of prayer and I believe that you will cry out to the Lord at just the right time.

That last bit you posted was a bit of a stretch for me.. But all things come in the Lords time..

How far-fetched do you think it is that 144,000 virgin Jewish males are going to evangalize the world during the great tribulation?

 

[bananabrain]

are you talking about stuff like this?

yes, yes and yes. the fact that that bigoted fanatic benny elon is involved gives me cause for great disquiet. i note a lot of this seems to be about the gush katif gazan settlers, who were removed democratically and sensitively (despite the lack of benefit israel appears to have received for doing so) in the interests of peace and with the approval of the majority of israelis - despite the best efforts of elon and his friends on the lunatic fringes.

One of my radio pastors was personally responsible for stopping the gay rights parade from marching on the holy streets of Jerusalem.. I guess you could be talking about him..

as i have said elsewhere, the prohibition of certain acts between men by no means makes it acceptable to oppress and persecute them - particularly when acts of comparable seriousness - e.g. the violation of the Sabbath, the denial of divorce and financial crimes - are conveniently ignored. as we all know, the one thing jewish, christian and muslim hardliners can all agree on is how much they all hate gays. if only they could devote this amount of energy to peace.

What about us standing behind them in whatever they do because we know that blessing Israel in turn G!D blesses us.

these people have an interest in identifying themselves as "the only serious jews" to you lot because they want your financial and moral support. they have no intention of converting at any point and they think you're suckers for giving them money in the hope that jesus will prove you right. their only respect for christianity is as a useful ally in their battle against compromise.

I believe in the power of prayer and I believe that you will cry out to the Lord at just the right time.

very kind of you i'm sure. i myself believe that jews are unlikely to be punished by G!D at any time for remaining true to ourselves and our Torah.

How far-fetched do you think it is that 144,000 virgin Jewish males are going to evangelize the world during the great tribulation?

eh? that sounds a bit cluck-cluck-gibber-gibber-my-old-man's-a-mushroom to me. i'm not aware of any jewish prophecy that says this, although do feel free to correct me. furthermore, the fact that we do not ascribe any spiritual advantage to virginity (quite the opposite, in fact) would further put this into what mrs bananabrain refers to as "east woo-woo land".

incidentally, dauer just posted this link in answer to a similar question on the judaism board, which addresses the daniel 9 controversy. it dissects some of the questions of translation fairly authoritatively *but* WARNING - i do not support what the author says at the end, that christianity is based on lies. it should, however, give you some idea of what objections could be made:

DANIEL AND THE ANOINTED ONE

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[pohaikawahine]

I'm just bumping this thread to stay in the "courtyard" (so to speak) .... actually I do believe that the third temple will be made of light and when we remember who we are, we will no longer have to use words like "your people and my people" .... the temple will be a house of prayer for all nations .... one needs to removed walls to see, not build new ones .... faithful servant, your words do have a way of building walls .... we should all keep an open mind .... he hawai'i au, pohaikawahine

 

[Faithfulservant]

Despite what you may think... our ultimate goal isnt converting Jews..Our ultimate goal is helping them because we want to help. Im not saying that some people would use it as a means to convert... but it isnt on the top of our list..

Our particular belief is that Gods will be done His way and His time.. we are just the instruments He works with. We of course share the gospel but we do that because we are supposed to.

Thanks again for the link

 

[Faithfulservant]

I'm just bumping this thread to stay in the "courtyard" (so to speak) .... actually I do believe that the third temple will be made of light and when we remember who we are, we will no longer have to use words like "your people and my people" .... the temple will be a house of prayer for all nations .... one needs to removed walls to see, not build new ones .... faithful servant, your words do have a way of building walls .... we should all keep an open mind .... he hawai'i au, pohaikawahine

I believe you are a kind and gentle person but this way is not biblical. I reject it.. To be Holy is to be set apart.. The way you are speaking is anti-christ and apostate. There are two masters.. one is the world and one is the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ..

 

[bananabrain]

Despite what you may think... our ultimate goal isn't converting Jews

well, that is nice to hear from time to time...

actually I do believe that the third temple will be made of light

and this is a valid jewish tradition, actually, faithfulservant.

and when we remember who we are, we will no longer have to use words like "your people and my people" .... the temple will be a house of prayer for all nations

I believe you are a kind and gentle person but this way is not biblical. I reject it..

ahem - if this is what you think, you ought to take a look at isaiah 2:2-3 in particular and the first twenty verses or so in general. pohaikawahine makes a perfectly good point.

To be Holy is to be set apart..

strictly linguistically speaking, yes, but i've noticed that that hardly seems to be an issue for christians in other areas.

The way you are speaking is anti-christ and apostate.

harrumph. poh never said she was a christian and i think you're ignoring some rather important bits of the bible, frankly.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Faithfulservant]

Your telling me that she is saying that all people will gather in the holy temple and worship the G-D of Abraham Isaac and Jacob? From what I gather she believes we all worship the same G-D now? If I am wrong than I will certainly apologize.

strictly linguistically speaking, yes, but i've noticed that that hardly seems to be an issue for christians in other areas.

In which areas are you speaking? and please dont lump together all that claim the name Christian.. its completely ridiculous.. you yourself dont lump all your people and how they practice their faith.

According to the bible there are only 2 roads leading in 2 completely different directions.. as much as it irks people.. You are either a Christian or you arent.. You are either born of the Spirit of G-D or you arent.

We are to go out into the world to share the gospel yet we are not to fellowship with those whose master is not Christ the Lord.

Its not much different than the time of your forefathers.. whats changed?? The Jews or G-D?

I also would like to know which important bits of scripture and I ignoring? You quote Isaiah but am I allowed to quote Revelation?

 

[bananabrain]

You're telling me that she is saying that all people will gather in the holy Temple and worship the G!D of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

that's not just what *she's* saying. that's what it says in isaiah in chapter 2.

From what I gather she believes we all worship the same G-D now?

there is a perfectly valid PoV (which i share, incidentally) which says that, in effect, if G!D Is One, when you worship a Oneness which you call G!D, it is very hard to argue that you are not worshipping the same G!D. i don't particularly care whether the Name by which this Oneness is addressed is Sat Naam, Brahma, HaShem, Allah, The Force or Great Spirit, frankly, as long as the Oneness is still One and not more than one. what we are talking about is the realisation that "there are many roads up the Mountain" and that we're all on the same side and in fact, this is precisely how isaiah expresses this concept. moreover, what is important is how we act, not the terminology used (unless of course one has an obligation to use a particular approach, which is in the terms and conditions of a biblical covenant)

In which areas are you speaking?

well, if you set apart, you set apart. in other words, separate - set apart milk from meat, tamei (cultically pure things) from tahor (cultically impure things), permitted activities from forbidden activities, which christians claim is no longer necessary, in contradistinction to ourselves, who claim they are as necessary as they ever were, in other words they are still binding on us and were never binding on non-jews in the first place. furthermore, what the concept of kedushah or holiness does not imply is that holiness is set apart from the world and the everyday. to suggest that it does is to violate the linguistic sense of the "Word", as you might put it, in order to support some figurative meaning - but we cannot accept that a verse can be separated from its literal meaning.

According to the bible there are only 2 roads leading in 2 completely different directions.. as much as it irks people.. You are either a Christian or you aren't.. You are either born of the Spirit of G-D or you arent.

the problem is that when you use the word "biblical" it includes the "new testament", whereas if i use it i am talking about the "old testament" only. and, strictly speaking, according to the "biblical" definition in the NT, i'm *not* a christian and therefore theologically no different from some chap in the amazon jungle with a feather worn in an interesting place. but, according to you, we're both equally wrong because we're not christians. you can't "have fellowship" with either of us (which leads me to wonder somewhat what you're doing on a comparative religion site) - so if you want to say "according to the bible" you'd better say which bit of the bible you mean.

You quote Isaiah but am I allowed to quote Revelation?

you can quote it if you like, but i don't believe it is a sacred text, at least not from my PoV. i would hardly quote the tanya (the most influential hasidic text) to you for the same reason. we can only really discuss texts which we both consider authoritative and even then we are likely, as you see, to disagree about their meaning. in other words, don't quote revelations to me and expect me to find it convincing.

b'shalom

bananabrain