myxomatosis
New Member
- Messages
- 2
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
Hi! I am just curious to know if there are any scientific or any logical arguments establishing the existence of God?
Scientific Arguments>
- Thread starter myxomatosis
- Start date
There are no scientific arguments for or against the existence of God - because, ultimately, God is unquantifiable. Science can only work with concepts that can be quanitifed.
As for logical arguments - well, that depends on your point of view.
There are various arguments for and against the existence of God, but each of them has their limitations.
Ultimately, accepting the existence or no of God becomes an issue of personal experience and faith only.
As for logical arguments - well, that depends on your point of view.
There are various arguments for and against the existence of God, but each of them has their limitations.
Ultimately, accepting the existence or no of God becomes an issue of personal experience and faith only.
Susma Rio Sep
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 828
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 0
In favor of the possessor
Brian, you put the question admirably clear and concise. (No patronizing intended.)
I am myself a postgraduate Catholic, not psychologically subservient to the Vatican's and its watchdog doctrinaires' pronouncements and decretals.
But I still believe in God, and no favor to God either. He and I go way way back.
The way I see it, since God has been around all these millennia, and since in doubt we are to decide in favor of the party in actual possession of an object; so in this matter of God being here or not, I decide pro God's existence. Now, I can continue talking to and with God.
But I am against all kinds of even mere appearances of religious fanaticism and bigotry.
Susma Rio Sep
Brian, you put the question admirably clear and concise. (No patronizing intended.)
I am myself a postgraduate Catholic, not psychologically subservient to the Vatican's and its watchdog doctrinaires' pronouncements and decretals.
But I still believe in God, and no favor to God either. He and I go way way back.
The way I see it, since God has been around all these millennia, and since in doubt we are to decide in favor of the party in actual possession of an object; so in this matter of God being here or not, I decide pro God's existence. Now, I can continue talking to and with God.
But I am against all kinds of even mere appearances of religious fanaticism and bigotry.
Susma Rio Sep
I said:There are no scientific arguments for or against the existence of God - because, ultimately, God is unquantifiable. Science can only work with concepts that can be quanitifed.
As for logical arguments - well, that depends on your point of view.
There are various arguments for and against the existence of God, but each of them has their limitations.
Ultimately, accepting the existence or no of God becomes an issue of personal experience and faith only.
The eye of the beholder...
Magic & Dust
We be not of dust
from magic have we come.
The stuff dreams are made of
this be our sum.
And if God be a sleepin'
pray never does He rise,
for all that we are made of
would fade from His eyes.
And should the Lord be awake
hope never does He sleep.
For all that is and could be
would be lost, to the deep
You and I Susma Rio Sep, may very well be flip sides of the same coin. I too am a postgraduate Catholic. But putting all that rigamarolle aside, allowed me to think and ask questions. Funny thing, some of the answers I find, are during breath stilling times and places (you've heard the term "be still, and know I am your God").
Like the hours between midnight and two AM, on Christmas, when everyone else is in bed, and I have a fire in the hearth, all lights are out but for the soft twinkling of the Christmas tree, and the glow of lights in the miniature town and manger scene on my mantle, or when I step into the Grotto (Lady of Lourdes), St. Mary's Seminary in Emmitsburg, Maryland, for a moment, time seems to stand still, and without asking for it, sometimes I sense...something...
...unobtrusive, but full of unfathomable energy. Sometimes I get the feeling something is about to chuckle, and other times I feel as if someone is holding their breath, waiting for what choice I am going to make, or thought I'm going to turn into philosophy. It doesn't happen often, but when it does, I am aware of it. It causes me to think about things for a long time afterward.
I still love the trappings of the "Roman Catholic" and "American Episcapal/Anglican" churches. And I like to seek out the priests and nuns from time to time for discussion. But in the end, I walk my own path in life.
I love the church, but the back pew is more comfortable for me than any other. And don't stencil my name on my seat...there may be quite a build up of dust before my backside every meets it again.
v/r
Q
Magic & Dust
We be not of dust
from magic have we come.
The stuff dreams are made of
this be our sum.
And if God be a sleepin'
pray never does He rise,
for all that we are made of
would fade from His eyes.
And should the Lord be awake
hope never does He sleep.
For all that is and could be
would be lost, to the deep
You and I Susma Rio Sep, may very well be flip sides of the same coin. I too am a postgraduate Catholic. But putting all that rigamarolle aside, allowed me to think and ask questions. Funny thing, some of the answers I find, are during breath stilling times and places (you've heard the term "be still, and know I am your God").
Like the hours between midnight and two AM, on Christmas, when everyone else is in bed, and I have a fire in the hearth, all lights are out but for the soft twinkling of the Christmas tree, and the glow of lights in the miniature town and manger scene on my mantle, or when I step into the Grotto (Lady of Lourdes), St. Mary's Seminary in Emmitsburg, Maryland, for a moment, time seems to stand still, and without asking for it, sometimes I sense...something...
...unobtrusive, but full of unfathomable energy. Sometimes I get the feeling something is about to chuckle, and other times I feel as if someone is holding their breath, waiting for what choice I am going to make, or thought I'm going to turn into philosophy. It doesn't happen often, but when it does, I am aware of it. It causes me to think about things for a long time afterward.
I still love the trappings of the "Roman Catholic" and "American Episcapal/Anglican" churches. And I like to seek out the priests and nuns from time to time for discussion. But in the end, I walk my own path in life.
I love the church, but the back pew is more comfortable for me than any other. And don't stencil my name on my seat...there may be quite a build up of dust before my backside every meets it again.
v/r
Q
logical
Hi, I'm Louis...
Many people have asked me : "Do you believe in God ?"
I learned that I can only answer that question in 2 parts :
Yes to "God" - No to "believe".
I've never understood the "believe" part of that question
but I agree with the "God" part because, as a finite being,
I cannot imagine a reality without a beginning, which
pre-supposes a CAUSE before the beginning.
The only alternative would involve something coming
from nothing - elements, planets, stars, etc.- inventing
themselves - arrainging themselves in the orderly patterns
we can so clearly observe.
Although we can't observe the cause itself, we can indulge
in some guesswork about it by examining its product.
For example, it would have had to exist when there was absolutely nothing else - nothing to sustain it - nothing
to act upon it - which means it had to act of it's own
volition. Only something ALIVE could do that.
I suppose that means I don't qualify as an "atheist"
even though everything I say is just a personal opinion -
a product reason having nothing to do with "faith".
Louis...
myxomatosis said:
Hi, I'm Louis...
Many people have asked me : "Do you believe in God ?"
I learned that I can only answer that question in 2 parts :
Yes to "God" - No to "believe".
I've never understood the "believe" part of that question
but I agree with the "God" part because, as a finite being,
I cannot imagine a reality without a beginning, which
pre-supposes a CAUSE before the beginning.
The only alternative would involve something coming
from nothing - elements, planets, stars, etc.- inventing
themselves - arrainging themselves in the orderly patterns
we can so clearly observe.
Although we can't observe the cause itself, we can indulge
in some guesswork about it by examining its product.
For example, it would have had to exist when there was absolutely nothing else - nothing to sustain it - nothing
to act upon it - which means it had to act of it's own
volition. Only something ALIVE could do that.
I suppose that means I don't qualify as an "atheist"
even though everything I say is just a personal opinion -
a product reason having nothing to do with "faith".
Louis...
personal experience
From Louis...
Isn't ALL experience "personal" ?
We all experience what our physical senses tell us about
the world around us. Some say they experience MORE .
They look into their own minds and insist that on some deeper level, they find a connection to things beyond everyday reality. Very interesting.
Trouble is, when I look into my mind, I find my own
thoughts and feelings and NOTHING more -
No connection to any other part of reality - just my own
perceptions of the same old outside world.
Plus a few wish-fulfilment fantasies that are only part of
ME - and only FEEL real to ME.
Do other people realy see more or are they just not as
honest with themselves as I am ?
I said:There are no scientific arguments for or against the existence of God - because, ultimately, God is unquantifiable. Science can only work with concepts that can be quanitifed.
As for logical arguments - well, that depends on your point of view.
There are various arguments for and against the existence of God, but each of them has their limitations.
Ultimately, accepting the existence or no of God becomes an issue of personal experience and faith only.
From Louis...
Isn't ALL experience "personal" ?
We all experience what our physical senses tell us about
the world around us. Some say they experience MORE .
They look into their own minds and insist that on some deeper level, they find a connection to things beyond everyday reality. Very interesting.
Trouble is, when I look into my mind, I find my own
thoughts and feelings and NOTHING more -
No connection to any other part of reality - just my own
perceptions of the same old outside world.
Plus a few wish-fulfilment fantasies that are only part of
ME - and only FEEL real to ME.
Do other people realy see more or are they just not as
honest with themselves as I am ?
God
From Louis....
Well... there's "God"... and "the way humans IMAGINE God".
Since I have sensory faculties that enable me to examine
the actual "God" - whatever or whoever that is - all of my
comments refer to products of human imagination.
It is no insult to the actual "God" if I think some of those
products are a bit off the mark.
I said:There are no scientific arguments for or against the existence of God - because, ultimately, God is unquantifiable. Science can only work with concepts that can be quanitifed.
As for logical arguments - well, that depends on your point of view.
There are various arguments for and against the existence of God, but each of them has their limitations.
Ultimately, accepting the existence or no of God becomes an issue of personal experience and faith only.
From Louis....
Well... there's "God"... and "the way humans IMAGINE God".
Since I have sensory faculties that enable me to examine
the actual "God" - whatever or whoever that is - all of my
comments refer to products of human imagination.
It is no insult to the actual "God" if I think some of those
products are a bit off the mark.
louis said:
Most people when they ask "Do you believe in God?" mean simply "Do you believe that a divine being exists?" Did you notice the change from "believe in" to "believe that"? To "believe that" is to give assent to a proposition as fact: in this case, the proposition being "God exists".
But surely religion, faith, is much more than assenting to the simple proposition: "God exists". My understanding of the question "Do you believe in God?" is this.
Do you believe in God's love for you? Are you willing to commit yourself to God in the confidence that God always loves you and seeks your good. Are you willing to trust in that love, even when God asks you to do something difficult and painful?
To believe in God is to make a commitment of trust in God based on God's perceived character of goodness, truth, wisdom, justice and love.
Obviously this commitment pre-supposes an affirmative answer to the proposition "Does God exist?" But can we say we believe in God if we stop with mere assent to the proposition, but do not enter into a relationship with the God whose existence we have affirmed?
For if God exists (and I agree there is and can be no scientific evidence one way or the other), if God exists and is who and what God is claimed to be---how we enter into relationship with God is a matter of utmost importance. For such a God is "the ground of our being", that to which we owe our "ultimate commitment".
Now, as a Christian, I approach the question of how to relate to God in the manner of a theist, one who believes in a deity with whom it is possible to have a personal and loving relationship.
One thing I would be curious to know, from adherents to Buddhism and similar faiths, as well as from agnostics is how you understand a relationship of ultimate commitment. What do you see yourself as being ultimately committed to, and why?
I was also curious about this thought, Louis. Why do you say only something ALIVE could exist when there was absolutely nothing else? I don't see that as being a readily obvious thought. While I don't agree with the materialist or dualist position personally, I see nothing illogical or impossible in positing the eternal existence of matter either on its own or alongside of the eternal spiritual life of God.
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Gluadys said: "Do you believe in God's love for you? Are you willing to commit yourself to God in the confidence that God always loves you and seeks your good. Are you willing to trust in that love, even when God asks you to do something difficult and painful?
To believe in God is to make a commitment of trust in God based on God's perceived character of goodness, truth, wisdom, justice and love.
For if God exists (and I agree there is and can be no scientific evidence one way or the other), if God exists and is who and what God is claimed to be---how we enter into relationship with God is a matter of utmost importance. For such a God is "the ground of our being", that to which we owe our "ultimate commitment". "
Thank you for this nice summation, Gluadys. Seeing it put succinctly like this clarifies the position of believer vs. agnostic for me.
To believe in God is to make a commitment of trust in God based on God's perceived character of goodness, truth, wisdom, justice and love.
For if God exists (and I agree there is and can be no scientific evidence one way or the other), if God exists and is who and what God is claimed to be---how we enter into relationship with God is a matter of utmost importance. For such a God is "the ground of our being", that to which we owe our "ultimate commitment". "
Thank you for this nice summation, Gluadys. Seeing it put succinctly like this clarifies the position of believer vs. agnostic for me.
StrangeQuark
Wannabe Scholar
lunamoth said:
Lunamoth, this is an interesting observation, and maybe it applies to me. I'm not sure. I guess, as with anything, it would depend on how I feel about it. In any case, I will conclude that I am a *believer*, although I have not . . . I'm going to say "renewed" any such commitment in my life.
I believe in God. I believe that God loves me and everyone, despite appearances to the contrary (this kind of life really is an awful way to exist, if you ask me), and I believe he (the use of "he" is just habit) is both imminent in nature and transcends it.
However, I am not a member of any particular church, faith, religion, or whatever. I basically live a secular life. Personally, I would prefer to be more dedicated but I'm rather lazy. I at least try to be a good person and live by a certain code (relative morality, if you will). I don't always succeed but I do try.
Does this mean that I am really agnostic? Or am I a believer, as I seem to think, who has just become used to sitting on the couch all day typing on a computer?
As I said, I would call myself a believer, although I could be wrong even in this. I only ask because some friends have said to me I sound more like an agnostic. I guess I am asking for more clarification of definition, which may help me to understand my own ideas better--or at least in a different light.
Hmm . . . before I finish I just noticed that I may have overlooked part of Gluadys' statement: Whether or not I am "willing to trust in God even when he asks me to do something difficult or painful" is not easy to answer. I don't know what I will do tomorrow, or under certain conditions. I like to think that if something painful happens in my life I will still trust God that everything will work out.
It is so obvious to me that I'm not very good at living a purely spiritual life, so I guess that is something difficult God might ask of me. Perhaps, since I'm not doing it, one might say I'm not prepared to make that kind of committment. In that sense, maybe I am agnostic.
Peace be with you always
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Hi Stragequark,
Reading your posts I think we are in similar places in our journeys. I posted in another thread (Why Believe, Born with Belief) how I came to be here.
For me an agnostic is someone who has decided that while God/Something Else is possible, there is no way to know this for sure and there is no need to decide in this life.
I am a scientist, or at least I was a research biologist up until a few years ago when I adopted my first child. Learning about the intricate mechanisms of life gave me a profound sense of awe about creation and to me was like a religious experience. And, scientists do take some things on "faith." Like the idea of electrons. These are concepts that we can't really "see" but use to explain the phenomenon that we can measure. And we accept them until something comes along that shows us that our "model" is not right, or not completely right, at which point the model is modified or thrown out or whatever. And so we make progress understanding our material world.
But I agree with Gluadys that there can be no scientific proof of God. God is beyond comprehension and all we can know about God comes from the extent to which we humans can reflect His light. I don't mean that God is some kind of energy--He is beyond energy. Transcendent. I don't have a concrete idea about how this all works, but I do see the evidence all around me of His existence. It is all a very personal experience. Because I choose to believe. God is love, justice, peace, compassion. Those high ideals that we get glimpses of in human behavior but only see perfectly personified in our Messiahs.
There is a poem by Don Marquis, I think, called the lesson of the moth. It has haunted me my whole life--why do some things stick to us so firmly? I can't reproduce the whole poem, but to paraphrase a cockroach named archie is watching a moth batter itself against a light bulb and he asks the moth, why do you fellows pull this stunt? If that were an uncovered flame you would now be a cinder. And the moth replies because the light is beautiful and we love beauty. It is better to part of beauty for an instant and die than never be a part of beauty. And the moth goes off to immolate himself on a patent cigar lighter. archie concludes, i don't agree as I would rather have half the beauty and twice the longevity. but i do wish there was something I wanted so much that I would be willing to die for it.
You can choose to have a passion for something and make it real for your life to the extent that you are willing to sacrifice for it. What you choose will make all the difference. Unless you have empirical evidence, and some people on this forum have, but it is of a very personal nature, what you are left with is choice. Trust. It is logical to remain agnostic. But that in itself is a decision. If you decide instead that there is something to be gained by deciding, then the journey begins. It will color your world and all you do.
I don't know that you are an agnostic. Perhaps you are still just looking for your home or path.
SQ said: "Whether or not I am "willing to trust in God even when he asks me to do something difficult or painful" is not easy to answer. I don't know what I will do tomorrow, or under certain conditions. I like to think that if something painful happens in my life I will still trust God that everything will work out.
It is so obvious to me that I'm not very good at living a purely spiritual life, so I guess that is something difficult God might ask of me. Perhaps, since I'm not doing it, one might say I'm not prepared to make that kind of committment. In that sense, maybe I am agnostic."
lunamoth: Yes, so you, like me, are human. This level of trust is an ideal to strive toward, and a comfort when we catch glimmers of it. The question is do you believe in the ideal. Will we fall short? Yes. We all do. That is what forgiveness is for.
Reading your posts I think we are in similar places in our journeys. I posted in another thread (Why Believe, Born with Belief) how I came to be here.
For me an agnostic is someone who has decided that while God/Something Else is possible, there is no way to know this for sure and there is no need to decide in this life.
I am a scientist, or at least I was a research biologist up until a few years ago when I adopted my first child. Learning about the intricate mechanisms of life gave me a profound sense of awe about creation and to me was like a religious experience. And, scientists do take some things on "faith." Like the idea of electrons. These are concepts that we can't really "see" but use to explain the phenomenon that we can measure. And we accept them until something comes along that shows us that our "model" is not right, or not completely right, at which point the model is modified or thrown out or whatever. And so we make progress understanding our material world.
But I agree with Gluadys that there can be no scientific proof of God. God is beyond comprehension and all we can know about God comes from the extent to which we humans can reflect His light. I don't mean that God is some kind of energy--He is beyond energy. Transcendent. I don't have a concrete idea about how this all works, but I do see the evidence all around me of His existence. It is all a very personal experience. Because I choose to believe. God is love, justice, peace, compassion. Those high ideals that we get glimpses of in human behavior but only see perfectly personified in our Messiahs.
There is a poem by Don Marquis, I think, called the lesson of the moth. It has haunted me my whole life--why do some things stick to us so firmly? I can't reproduce the whole poem, but to paraphrase a cockroach named archie is watching a moth batter itself against a light bulb and he asks the moth, why do you fellows pull this stunt? If that were an uncovered flame you would now be a cinder. And the moth replies because the light is beautiful and we love beauty. It is better to part of beauty for an instant and die than never be a part of beauty. And the moth goes off to immolate himself on a patent cigar lighter. archie concludes, i don't agree as I would rather have half the beauty and twice the longevity. but i do wish there was something I wanted so much that I would be willing to die for it.
You can choose to have a passion for something and make it real for your life to the extent that you are willing to sacrifice for it. What you choose will make all the difference. Unless you have empirical evidence, and some people on this forum have, but it is of a very personal nature, what you are left with is choice. Trust. It is logical to remain agnostic. But that in itself is a decision. If you decide instead that there is something to be gained by deciding, then the journey begins. It will color your world and all you do.
I don't know that you are an agnostic. Perhaps you are still just looking for your home or path.
SQ said: "Whether or not I am "willing to trust in God even when he asks me to do something difficult or painful" is not easy to answer. I don't know what I will do tomorrow, or under certain conditions. I like to think that if something painful happens in my life I will still trust God that everything will work out.
It is so obvious to me that I'm not very good at living a purely spiritual life, so I guess that is something difficult God might ask of me. Perhaps, since I'm not doing it, one might say I'm not prepared to make that kind of committment. In that sense, maybe I am agnostic."
lunamoth: Yes, so you, like me, are human. This level of trust is an ideal to strive toward, and a comfort when we catch glimmers of it. The question is do you believe in the ideal. Will we fall short? Yes. We all do. That is what forgiveness is for.
StrangeQuark
Wannabe Scholar
Hello, lunamoth:
Thank you very much for your reply. It does seem to relate very well with my feelings.
After all these years of personal inquiry and searching, this still seems a true statement. I think I am still looking.
I believe I have had some glimmers of it, and one that was very deeply comforting. I fall short every day and I am thankful for God's forgiveness. Thank you again for the wonderful insight!
Thank you very much for your reply. It does seem to relate very well with my feelings.
lunamoth said:
After all these years of personal inquiry and searching, this still seems a true statement. I think I am still looking.
I believe I have had some glimmers of it, and one that was very deeply comforting. I fall short every day and I am thankful for God's forgiveness. Thank you again for the wonderful insight!