Genesis 3:24

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I lean towards heaven being a place on earth, in the now. More than a state of mind, but rather a realization of the paradise we already have...earth is our Eden in my mind. Eden is a heaven, and with the right seat of soul (heart), I believe we can re-enter this paradise now. Even with all the world gone to hell; all we need do is get past that which seperates us from this paradise, and I believe that is something we can achieve in this lifetime. (If we take little thought of tomorrow, and try to work on today.) Perhaps this is where our hearts should be? Maybe by finding heaven in the now, we secure ourselves for the after when/if it comes?

Genesis 3:24

24. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.



I've struggled with this passage since the first time I read it, and I'm wondering what your thoughts are on it. I have my own at the moment, but they just came to mind a few minutes ago, so I don't fully know how to explain what I'm thinking. Maybe your views will either validate, or create a better understanding altogether.


James
 
Assuming a non-literal interpritation of the creation/Eden story...
I've often thought it was a metaphore for when humans became concious and 'self aware' rather than a literal 1st man and woman.
Adam (and Eve) would represent the first man or 'tribe' that began the spiritual journey to Judasim and from there Christianity and Islam.
Eating from the tree of knowlwdge represents the first step in understanding 'cause and effect' and that all actions have a consequence-not just good and evil but the beginings of 'society' for want of a better word.
The 'casting out of Eden' could be seen as the final loss of inocence-or as a symbol of the constant struggle mankind has with it's self and spirituality- with Eden representing the 'ideal state' of mind/soul, the world representing- well, the world and all it's distractions, pleasures and pain, and the Cheribims and their swords representing the mental/emotional/spiritual and physical obsticals in our path back to the 'state of Eden'.
That's probably not very well explained but subjects like this require an essay (not less than 10,000 words and it does go towards your final mark...sorry, flash back to my school days) just to start properly explaining what you mean.
I think Im right in saying that, originaly, Judaism didn't have a concept of an afterlife (or at least not a fully formed one at any rate) and that Heaven/Hell were symbolic earthly states of mind/being. If my memory isn't playing tricks I think the idea of a spiritual Heaven etc in the afterlife came at the time of the Babylonian exile. (I can't even remember were I heard or read that so won't vouch for it's accuracy-correct me if it's wrong someone).
 
Your thinking is right along the lines of my own, pfw. Particularly the part about the sword being inner obstacles and self struggle being what casts us out. I don't think we ever left Eden physically, I believe it was metaphorical in that we lost our innocence by allowing sin to enter our reality on a spiritual level. I think spiritual death is the death spoke of by G-d, and I believe that a physical death was already part of the grand design.

Thanks for you thoughts....


James
 
I lean towards heaven being a place on earth, in the now. More than a state of mind, but rather a realization of the paradise we already have...earth is our Eden in my mind. Eden is a heaven, and with the right seat of soul (heart), I believe we can re-enter this paradise now. Even with all the world gone to hell; all we need do is get past that which seperates us from this paradise, and I believe that is something we can achieve in this lifetime. (If we take little thought of tomorrow, and try to work on today.) Perhaps this is where our hearts should be? Maybe by finding heaven in the now, we secure ourselves for the after when/if it comes?

Genesis 3:24

24. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.


I've struggled with this passage since the first time I read it, and I'm wondering what your thoughts are on it. I have my own at the moment, but they just came to mind a few minutes ago, so I don't fully know how to explain what I'm thinking. Maybe your views will either validate, or create a better understanding altogether.


James

Well, Matthew 3: 2 does state that we are to repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand...

And Jesus' "Sermon on the Mount" did speak of the blessed in the present tense, and not future imperfect. So maybe you got something there...

v/r

Joshua
 
Joshua, thanks for your input. I've felt like earth was Eden for years, but I could never get past the flaming sword bit, or the part about us being cast out. I was reading Genesis, and I had my thought, lol. Sometimes they stick, and sometimes they don't, but this concept makes almost perfect sense to me.

The only thing I find disturbing about it is-what if this is all there is? Jesus said life eternal, and I don't view him as being a liar. How would this theory become valid in what Jesus taught us about everlasting life?


James
 
The only thing I find disturbing about it is-what if this is all there is? Jesus said life eternal, and I don't view him as being a liar. How would this theory become valid in what Jesus taught us about everlasting life?


James
Are the two mutualy exclusive? I personaly don't think they are. My personal opinion (and I know no scripture to back it up) is that Christ 'opened the door to Heaven (spiritual afterlife version)' via his sacrifice and, along with the terachings of the OT showed us a way to be 'worthy' of Heaven while still on Earth.
A highly flawed illistration might be your invited to meet the Queen-do you go in the jeans and tee-shirt your wearing or do you change into more formal, appropriate, clothing?
The Queen = God, Heaven
Jeans/teeshirt = physical and spiritual state at the time of the invite (Christs sacrifice)
More formal clothing = at least making an attempt at making yourself a more spiritual and better person and showing God the respect He's due (and yourself the respect your due).
 
Genesis 3:24

24. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

I've struggled with this passage since the first time I read it, and I'm wondering what your thoughts are on it. I have my own at the moment, but they just came to mind a few minutes ago, so I don't fully know how to explain what I'm thinking. Maybe your views will either validate, or create a better understanding altogether.


James

Funny thought...

If you use Strong's and look up "cherubim" and "flaming", you could interpret this as "He placed...imaginary creatures, and a lightning sword which turned every way...".

Just a thought stimulator - anyone?
 
Funny thought...

If you use Strong's and look up "cherubim" and "flaming", you could interpret this as "He placed...imaginary creatures, and a lightning sword which turned every way...".

Just a thought stimulator - anyone?


I read your post last night, and wasn't sure how to respond, so I thought it over a bit. I'm not sure what the cheribums represent, but the sword represents that which kills us spiritually to me...anger, jealousy, bitterness, envy, lust, etc. all those negatives that keep us from feeling peace within self.

You all know what/who I view G-d to be (Love) and I think the only way to get past the sword is to embrace and surrender to his power. By doing so, we gain access back into the garden (Spiritually). Perhaps, the Ceribum is that which judges out inner state and allows us in once we overcome these types of demons through love? I don't know...I haven't made it there yet, lol! Although, I've gotten a taste in the last few months...


James
 
You know the other place that has two Cherubim is the Ark of the Covenant, which covers the Mercy Seat in the Holy of Holies. Only the High Priest is allowed to enter, and only then once a year with much ritual preparation. If the high priest enters in unprepared, he will die. The High Priest entered the Holy of Holies to place blood on the Mercy Seat, offered for the sins of the people.

Inside the Ark of the Covenant are three items: The Ten Commandments on two tablets of stone, Aaron's budding rod (which became a serpent in front of Pharoah), and a jar of Manna, God's provision for food for the Israelites in the wilderness.

The Ten Commandments - The Law of God which we can never keep. It is the standard of perfection of God.

Aaron's Budding Rod - A miracle in itself, for how can a rod bud without any root. Life where there shouldn't be life. I see it as representative of the miracles of God and a reminder of the miracles that set the Israelites free from the bondage of Egypt. It also verifies the priesthood of the Levitic line of Aaron.

Jar of Manna - Bread from Heaven. Constant provision from God to live on.

Why am I mentioning this? Because I think there is corelation between what we see in the Tabernacle and the Holy of Holies being covered by two Cherubim and the Garden of Eden protected by the two Cherubim with flaming swords. The swords represent the Word of God, the Holy Law, which we failed to keep. Just as the Ten Commandments in the Ark prevent us access to the Holy of Holies.

When Christ died, the veil to the Holy of Holies in the Temple was rent, thus providing access to God through Him. Likewise, we have access to the Throne of Grace (Hebrews 4:16). We enter not on our own accord, but by Christ, who tore down the division between us and God.

We can enter Eden again. The kingdom of God is within us, that is we have the means to enter the throne room through grace. The curse of the Law is met in Christ.
 
Awsome post, Dondi!

Christ paved the way, and provided the means by which we "can". If Christ was/is one with G-d, then his sacrifice made availible to us what has been denied us in past times. (Free passage after dying to self, and becoming reborn in Christ Spiritualy.) That's my take...Christ payed the price, and gave to us the means to re-enter the kingdom. (Eden) and all we must do is die like G-d told us we would after eating the fruit of knowledge. We die to our human ways, we die to our carnal nature, we die to our need to harbor resentment, bitterness, jealousy, envy, selfish pride, etc... This is how we get past the flaming sword, imo. (Through Christ and Love) I think it's an ongoing process of becoming, but when we embrace G-d for who he is, and know that Christ died so we we might find home once again, we begin to merge back into the garden a little each day. We prepare ourselves in proper dress. (Clothed by Christ himself) I think that is what pfw was suggesting in his last post? Correct me if I'm wrong, pfw...

Does that make any sense at all, lol. It's very hard for me to explain what I'm thinking at the moment.


Thanks for your input,


James
 
Inside the Ark of the Covenant are three items: The Ten Commandments on two tablets of stone, Aaron's budding rod (which became a serpent in front of Pharoah), and a jar of Manna, God's provision for food for the Israelites in the wilderness.

Inside the ark were three items.

2 Chronicles 5:10 describes the ark at the time of its placement in Solomon's temple as being empty save for the two tables of stone.

I always wondered what happened to the other two items.

Did the Philistines think "great - magical stuff. Forget the rocks, though"?:)
 
I'm not sure what the cheribums represent, but the sword represents that which kills us spiritually to me...anger, jealousy, bitterness, envy, lust, etc. all those negatives that keep us from feeling peace within self.

If the sword guards the way to the tree of life, mightn't (is mightn't a word?) that mean that to attain to everlasting life, we must give up anger, jealousy, bitterness, etc.?

Another thought...In the Tarot (just using this as an illustration), the Queen of Swords chops off all the unneccessary bits of your thinking in order that you may have right thinking (China or someone correct me if I'm wrong).

What if you put those two thoughts together?
 
Are you suggesting that the flaming sword could be what actually rids us of these spiritual "sins", then? That is my current view, but I would hate to think that only those who have given up these 'spirits' are granted eternal life. I think all who are in the prcess of becoming will enter...both on earth and perhaps in the after.

What is the sword, then?
 
Are you suggesting that the flaming sword could be what actually rids us of these spiritual "sins", then? That is my current view, but I would hate to think that only those who have given up these 'spirits' are granted eternal life. I think all who are in the prcess of becoming will enter...both on earth and perhaps in the after.

What is the sword, then?

Just a thought in process...

The sword would be correct discernment or right thinking which cuts away unneccessary thoughts of anger, jealousy, etc.

Only those of pure thinking may have eternal life.

Eternal life for those who hang on to anger, jealousy, etc would be hell, continual agony.
 
Would you say that the majority of the people and the majority of thier time on earth, are spent in a virtual hell, then? I think only true surrender to G-d will allow one to rid themselves of these sinful spirits. The wages of sin is death, but we are not always able to control our seat of soul (heart)...only by surrendering to Love can we ever hope to overcome, or die to the carnal man.

I disagree with there being a final destination, tho. I believe that life is a journey of growth, and in heaven, I also believe we will make mistakes and be allowed to learn from them. I'm not sure if we will ever completely rid ourselves of the negatives, but if you're in the process of becoming, then you have the tools to consistantly overcome that which harms you, and it will be those who make the grade, imo.


like you prober, thoughts in process....
 
Joshua, thanks for your input. I've felt like earth was Eden for years, but I could never get past the flaming sword bit, or the part about us being cast out. I was reading Genesis, and I had my thought, lol. Sometimes they stick, and sometimes they don't, but this concept makes almost perfect sense to me.

The only thing I find disturbing about it is-what if this is all there is? Jesus said life eternal, and I don't view him as being a liar. How would this theory become valid in what Jesus taught us about everlasting life?


James

The place where the faithful stand in the Temple, was that all there was? No, within the Temple was an inner sanctum, or Holy of Holies which was seperated by a "veil". Yet both parts were located within the Temple.

If one not a priest entered the Holy of Holies, they would die. It was not a symbolic concept. People would really die.

Perhaps Heaven and earth are like Eden and out side of Eden, and there is a veil that cuts the two off...however, I still believe that were it to be discovered and the unprepared try to pass from earth to Eden, they too would be killed instantly.

v/r

Joshua
 
Now that is a disturbing thought...

I'm not sure how to respond as I think differently than you on this issue. I don't think it is possible to even get close to Eden w/o first being prepared in heart, and even then I don't think we have a permanent residence as we will always have our inner demons to overcome...even daily.

I think that Eden is that place where we feel peace in this world, within ourselves, as well as an overwhelming comfort and serenity even in the midst of hardships. That to me is Eden, and the kingdom of Heaven on earth.

I know far too little about the Holy of Holies to comment on it, so I'll leave that to the better educated on the subject...


James
 
Would you say that the majority of the people and the majority of thier time on earth, are spent in a virtual hell, then? I think only true surrender to G-d will allow one to rid themselves of these sinful spirits. The wages of sin is death, but we are not always able to control our seat of soul (heart)...only by surrendering to Love can we ever hope to overcome, or die to the carnal man.

I disagree with there being a final destination, tho. I believe that life is a journey of growth, and in heaven, I also believe we will make mistakes and be allowed to learn from them. I'm not sure if we will ever completely rid ourselves of the negatives, but if you're in the process of becoming, then you have the tools to consistantly overcome that which harms you, and it will be those who make the grade, imo.


like you prober, thoughts in process....

Well, Jesus expressed quite a different view of things to come (now, and in the future):

Hebrews 10:1-22, "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshipers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having a high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water."
In the Old Testament, they used to offer sacrifices each year to cover the people's sins. The blood of Jesus does far more then cover sins, it takes them away. It removes them from your identity... it removes them from you as far as the east to the west! Psalms 103:12, "As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us."
Revelations 1:5, "And from Jesus Christ, who... washed us from our sins in his own blood."
Psalms 103:12, "As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us."
Matthew 26:28, "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." Do you know what the NT Greek has to say about the word 'remission' here? "Forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty."
Christ died so your conscience could be cleansed

2 Cor 5:17, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Why do you think God wanted us to be new creations when we enter His royal family? Because He doesn't want your past to be a part of you anymore! He wants you to be washed clean from all your sins and wiped clean from your past!
Isaiah 43:25, "I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins."
God knew that if He didn't forget our sins, they would forever be before Him, and it would hinder the closeness that He desires to have with us. Therefore, God Himself said that for His own sake, He chose to not only forgive your sins, but also forget them and cast them into the depths of the sea (Micah 7:19).
Hebrews 9:14, "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"
Not only did God chose to forget your sins, but He also wants you to forget them as well. God's Word tells us to, "...draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water." (Hebrews 10:22)

So it appears that once cleansed of all our transgressions, not only will God forget them, but we will forget them as well.

No man it seems that enters into the realm of God will have any vestiges of the failed part of his/her past. Hence anger, selfishness, greed and so on, can't be taken with you...:)

v/r

Joshua
 
Awsome! That was an inspiring and very hopeful post...thank you! So does this mean that while we are here on earth that we cannot enter this realm, or does it just mean that I need more work, or more faith, or more understanding? My past haunts my dreams, and I do sometimes struggle with some of those negative spirits we've talked about in this thread.

I still have trouble viewing Christ as G-d, but I certainly see divinity in him, if that makes sense. I fully trust his teachings, but I have not yet fully embraced him, or his sacrifice. I have a better understanding, but I have not yet come to the realization, ya know?

Perhaps this is and will continue to be my biggest delimma concerning Christ, and finding my own salvation in him. I'm learning as I go/grow in G-ds Love.


James
 
Now that is a disturbing thought...

I'm not sure how to respond as I think differently than you on this issue. I don't think it is possible to even get close to Eden w/o first being prepared in heart, and even then I don't think we have a permanent residence as we will always have our inner demons to overcome...even daily.

I think that Eden is that place where we feel peace in this world, within ourselves, as well as an overwhelming comfort and serenity even in the midst of hardships. That to me is Eden, and the kingdom of Heaven on earth.

I know far too little about the Holy of Holies to comment on it, so I'll leave that to the better educated on the subject...


James
I believe Eden is right here with us right now (we just can't see it, but sometimes we come close). The reason we can't see it is due to the distractions each of us have within our own lives. Mostly the distraction of guilt (whether self imposed, imposed falsley by the deceiver, or because of the conviction of God upon our souls). Two forms are harsh and overinflated (if not totally false), while one is a gentle calling to us to turn towards the Creator.

My mother once told me that when a man even begins to turn towards God, all of heaven holds its breath...

Why? Because when man turns towards God, that is one step closer to heaven becoming perfect, for God's original plan and design to flesh out into reality.

She said there will be two choirs in heaven, that of the angels, and that of man. When the angels sing, man will be stunned by the power and beauty of the sound...but when man sings, the angels will be brought to tears, because they will hear the song of salvation, which has no equal in the universe...because a song of love and gratitude has no equal, for even the angels can not fathom salvation, but man's song will give them a revelation to what it means to be saved...:)

Think about it. In the Bible, angels are protectors, messengers, and minister to our needs...but not once does an angel preach about salvation. They can't. They have no reference point, in which to do so.

v/r

Joshua
 
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