"Gentle" Jesus?

[Silas]

The following illustration is good for understanding election, humility, and faith. It pictures a certain Canaanite woman asking Jesus for help, yet he telling her that he came only for God's chosen people - namely, the lost sheep of Israel. Notice how in humilty, the woman persist in faith, even after a very harsh remark by Jesus. The humity displayed by the woman is exactly what we should have. A lot of your Liberal "Christians" need to understand scripture like these:


The Faith of a Canaanite Woman

And Jesus went away from there and withdrew to the district of Tyre and Sidon. And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and was crying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely oppressed by a demon.” But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, “Send her away, for she is crying out after us.” He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me.” And he answered, “It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs.” She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table.” Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly. (Mat 15:21-28)

 

[wil]

A lot of your Liberal "Christians" need to understand scripture like these: (Mat 15:21-28)

Oh, how should one 'understand' this Silas? Do expound for us.

 

[Quahom1]

The following illustration is good for understanding election, humility, and faith. It pictures a certain Canaanite woman asking Jesus for help, yet he telling her that he came only for God's chosen people - namely, the lost sheep of Israel. Notice how in humilty, the woman persist in faith, even after a very harsh remark by Jesus. The humity displayed by the woman is exactly what we should have. A lot of your Liberal "Christians" need to understand scripture like these:


The Faith of a Canaanite Woman

And Jesus went away from there and withdrew to the district of Tyre and Sidon. And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and was crying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely oppressed by a demon.” But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, “Send her away, for she is crying out after us.” He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me.” And he answered, “It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs.” She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table.” Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly. (Mat 15:21-28)

No He didn't. Jesus addressed her "gently" with a term of endearment. She on the other hand was not humble, but determined that she not be left out from the enfoldment of God. True, the term "Dog" was a derogatory term for non-Jewish folk...but Jesus alluded to the "little dogs" (puppies just learning). You left out the adjective "little", which changes the whole meaning of the passage.

And this has nothing to do whatsoever with Liberal Christianity. In fact, it had nothing to do with Christianity at all. Christianity did not exist at the point of Christ's "admonishment".

Finally, the "Caananite" was a "Samaritan", one who believed Judeac God without understanding why or what the Jewish God was...truly took God on faith without understanding...

There is nothing "liberal" about that.

v/r

Joshua

 

[Silas]

No He didn't. Jesus addressed her "gently" with a term of endearment. She on the other hand was not humble, but determined that she not be left out from the enfoldment of God. True, the term "Dog" was a derogatory term for non-Jewish folk...but Jesus alluded to the "little dogs" (puppies just learning). You left out the adjective "little", which changes the whole meaning of the passage.

And this has nothing to do whatsoever with Liberal Christianity. In fact, it had nothing to do with Christianity at all. Christianity did not exist at the point of Christ's "admonishment".

Finally, the "Caananite" was a "Samaritan", one who believed Judeac God without understanding why or what the Jewish God was...truly took God on faith without understanding...There is nothing "liberal" about that.

v/r

Joshua

That is very interesting, Josh! Lets look at this verse again, shall we? I'll break it apart to make it more apparent. Oh by the way, before I start to explain, I just wanted to say that I didnt say that the verse is liberal, but instead that I'm curious to hear how the liberal "gentle Jesus" crowd would understand this passage. That said, here we go:

15:21, 22 - Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon, and a Canaanite woman asked Him to heal her daughter who was demon-possessed. It is important to realize that this woman was not a Jew, but a Gentile. She was descended from the Canaanites, an immoral race which God had marked for extinction. Through Israel's disobedience, some had survived the invasion of Canaan under Joshua, and this woman was a descendant of the survivors. As a Gentile, she did not enjoy the privileges of God's chosen earthly people. She was an alien, having no hope. Positionally she had no claim on God or the Messiah. Speaking to Jesus, she addressed Him as the Lord, the Son of David, a title which the Jews used in speaking of the Messiah. Although Jesus was the Son of David, a Gentile had no right to approach Him on that basis. That is probably why He did not answer her at first?

15:23 - His disciples came and urged Him to send her away; to them she was a nuisance. To Him she was a welcome example of faith and a vessel in whom His grace would shine. But first He must prove and educate her faith!

15:24, 25 - He reminded her that His mission was to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, not to Gentiles, and certainly not to Canaanites. She was undismayed by this apparent refusal. Dropping the title, Son of David, she worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, help me!" If she couldn't come to Him as a Jew to her Messiah, she would come as a creature to her Creator.

15:26 -To further probe the reality of her faith, Jesus told her that it was not good for Him to turn aside from feeding the Jewish children in order to give bread to Gentile dogs. If this sounds harsh to us, we should remember that, like the surgeon's scalpel, it was not intended to hurt but to heal. She was a Gentile. The Jews looked upon the Gentiles as scavenging dogs, prowling the streets for scraps of food. However, Jesus here used the word for little pet dogs. The question was, "Would she acknowledge her unworthiness to receive the least of His mercies?"

15:27 - Her reply was magnificent. She agreed with His description completely. Taking the place of an unworthy Gentile, she cast herself on His mercy, love, and grace. She said, in effect, "You are right! I am only one of the little dogs under the table. But I notice that crumbs sometimes fall from the table to the floor. Won't You let me have some crumbs? I am not worthy that You should heal my daughter, but I beseech You to do it for one of Your undeserving creatures." This is humility!

15:28 - Jesus commended her for her great faith. While the unbelieving children had no hunger for the bread, here was a self-confessed "doggie" crying out for it. Faith was rewarded; her daughter was healed instantly. The fact that our Lord healed this Gentile daughter at a distance suggests His present ministry at God's right hand, bestowing spiritual healing on Gentiles during this age when His ancient people are set aside nationally.

 

[-James-]

I like your description, silas. Much of it made sense. I read the scripture myself in many different translations, and it reminded me of ME years ago when I was so desperate, all I did was sit and beg like a dog showing no faith in my master. (To no avail I might add) To me, it shows more of her coming to faith in her approach and not in complete desperation, begging like a dog.

And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

Right here is the moment she came to faith. She called him Lord, honored him, quit her begging, and her faith was shown. To me this story is more about submission and faith, and a lot less about groveling like a dog.


James

 

[Silas]

I like your description, silas. Much of it made sense. I read the scripture myself in many different translations, and it reminded me of ME years ago when I was so desperate, all I did was sit and beg like a dog showing no faith in my master. (To no avail I might add) To me, it shows more of her coming to faith in her approach and not in complete desperation, begging like a dog.

And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

Right here is the moment she came to faith. She called him Lord, honored him, quit her begging, and her faith was shown. To me this story is more about submission and faith, and a lot less about groveling like a dog.
James

Actually, homey, she knew Jesus to be God for the very outset. Note the begining of the story. Furthermore, the point isnt that she was begging like a dog, but infact she was a dog! She was undeserving of Jesus' grace, yet in faith (knowing who He was) appealed to His Mercy and Grace. It is the way all people, especially gentiles, should appear to Christ, to be honest.

 

[-James-]

The crux, like most of his stories is about faith, Silas.

"Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour"

Tell me, can you show any kind of faith when begging, or pleading, or by crying out, and groveling like dogs?

It's about faith and true submission i.e true humility in my mind; not about begging and groveling. It's about knowing, believing, and having faith in the good shepherd. Feel free to disagree, bro.


James

 

[Silas]

James, I'm not saying that the woman was goveling like a dog, I'm saying that she knew she was an unworthy dog, i.e., unworthy of Christ' help.

 

[-James-]

That is exactly how she approached him, silas. Begging, pleading, crying out. She showed no faith, and that is why Jeus resisted at first, not because of election.

 

[Silas]

That is exactly how she approached him, silas. Begging, pleading, crying out. She showed no faith, and that is why Jeus resisted at first, not because of election.

LOL! I didnt say Jesus resisted her because of eleciton. As a matter of fact, we see that she was a precursa of things to come, namely the Salvation of nonJews/Gentiles. That said, where do you get that she showed no faith? She showed nothing but faith from the outset.

 

[-James-]

You stand in faith no matter how broken, knowing in your heart that he will grant you what you ask in HIS name. Begging suggests no faith, crying out like a dog, groveling shows no faith, bro. If she had faith at the onset, Jesus would have healed her daughter then, but she didn't; instead she begged like a dog begs in fear of not being fed. You come to him knowing that he will feed you.

My 2c's


James

 

[Quahom1]

I like your description, silas. Much of it made sense. I read the scripture myself in many different translations, and it reminded me of ME years ago when I was so desperate, all I did was sit and beg like a dog showing no faith in my master. (To no avail I might add) To me, it shows more of her coming to faith in her approach and not in complete desperation, begging like a dog.

And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

Right here is the moment she came to faith. She called him Lord, honored him, quit her begging, and her faith was shown. To me this story is more about submission and faith, and a lot less about groveling like a dog.


James

She had faith before that statement. What she expressed to Jesus was the
CONVICTION of her faith. It was all or nothing baby. She knew Jesus, and had about ten seconds of His time...Silas forgot to mention that.

She went for the gold ring, because she had nothing to lose...

Don't worry Silas, I'm going back to your post.

v/r

Joshua

 

[Quahom1]

That is very interesting, Josh! Lets look at this verse again, shall we? I'll break it apart to make it more apparent. Oh by the way, before I start to explain, I just wanted to say that I didnt say that the verse is liberal, but instead that I'm curious to hear how the liberal "gentle Jesus" crowd would understand this passage. That said, here we go:

15:21, 22 - Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon, and a Canaanite woman asked Him to heal her daughter who was demon-possessed. It is important to realize that this woman was not a Jew, but a Gentile. She was descended from the Canaanites, an immoral race which God had marked for extinction. Through Israel's disobedience, some had survived the invasion of Canaan under Joshua, and this woman was a descendant of the survivors. As a Gentile, she did not enjoy the privileges of God's chosen earthly people. She was an alien, having no hope. Positionally she had no claim on God or the Messiah. Speaking to Jesus, she addressed Him as the Lord, the Son of David, a title which the Jews used in speaking of the Messiah. Although Jesus was the Son of David, a Gentile had no right to approach Him on that basis. That is probably why He did not answer her at first?

15:23 - His disciples came and urged Him to send her away; to them she was a nuisance. To Him she was a welcome example of faith and a vessel in whom His grace would shine. But first He must prove and educate her faith!

15:24, 25 - He reminded her that His mission was to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, not to Gentiles, and certainly not to Canaanites. She was undismayed by this apparent refusal. Dropping the title, Son of David, she worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, help me!" If she couldn't come to Him as a Jew to her Messiah, she would come as a creature to her Creator.

15:26 -To further probe the reality of her faith, Jesus told her that it was not good for Him to turn aside from feeding the Jewish children in order to give bread to Gentile dogs. If this sounds harsh to us, we should remember that, like the surgeon's scalpel, it was not intended to hurt but to heal. She was a Gentile. The Jews looked upon the Gentiles as scavenging dogs, prowling the streets for scraps of food. However, Jesus here used the word for little pet dogs. The question was, "Would she acknowledge her unworthiness to receive the least of His mercies?"

15:27 - Her reply was magnificent. She agreed with His description completely. Taking the place of an unworthy Gentile, she cast herself on His mercy, love, and grace. She said, in effect, "You are right! I am only one of the little dogs under the table. But I notice that crumbs sometimes fall from the table to the floor. Won't You let me have some crumbs? I am not worthy that You should heal my daughter, but I beseech You to do it for one of Your undeserving creatures." This is humility!

15:28 - Jesus commended her for her great faith. While the unbelieving children had no hunger for the bread, here was a self-confessed "doggie" crying out for it. Faith was rewarded; her daughter was healed instantly. The fact that our Lord healed this Gentile daughter at a distance suggests His present ministry at God's right hand, bestowing spiritual healing on Gentiles during this age when His ancient people are set aside nationally.

Sorry, what ever Bible you're reading has none of that side note crap that is above. That is called opinion. And yours does not align with mine.

No debate here.

 

[-James-]

She had faith before that statement. What she expressed to Jesus was the
CONVICTION of her faith. It was all or nothing baby. She knew Jesus, and had about ten seconds of His time...Silas forgot to mention that.

She went for the gold ring, because she had nothing to lose...

Don't worry Silas, I'm going back to your post.

v/r

Joshua

I agree in part, but only because she had faith that he could, but not the faith (conviction) that he would (For her). That's the problem in my mind; if she approached him knowing in her heart that he would feed her need, then it would have been done. Instead she was following them, crying out, and begging. Not that it's wrong to feel such desperation, but w/o faith that he will, then we're lacking a vital element to his promise.

It wasn't until she submitted to him, and honored him, and that he saw the faith he was looking for that he fed her need. "Lord even the dogs get the crumbs from thier masters table"


Maybe I'm taking it the wrong way, but this is what I see in this passage.


James

 

[Quahom1]

I agree in part, but only because she had faith that he could, but not the faith (conviction) that he would (For her). That's the problem in my mind; if she approached him knowing in her heart that he would feed her need, then it would have been done. Instead she was following them, crying out, and begging. Not that it's wrong to feel such desperation, but w/o faith that he will, then we're lacking a vital element to his promise.

It wasn't until she submitted to him, and honored him, and that he saw the faith he was looking for that he fed her need. "Lord even the dogs get the crumbs from thier masters table"


Maybe I'm taking it the wrong way, but this is what I see in this passage.


James

Horse pucky. She had bent her will to Him before she ever approached Him. She simply made Him make good on a promise she believed in. It is a variation on a theme that is elsewhere in the Bible. God says, keep coming at me and I will answer. Sometimes He needs the faith of others displayed for witnesses to see and hear, before He grants the petition. God is great at nailing 10 birds with one stone.

v/r

Joshua

 

[-James-]

I see your point about the faith issue, but I'm not sure what theme you're talking about. I was thinking Mustard seed in this passage, but only because that kind of faith has been on my mind lately. It seems all the themes blend into each other.

I'm curious about what you're speaking of, Q. That way I can measure it for myself. Where you suggest that if we keep coming at God he will answer. I'm not sure I'm familiar with that passage.


James

 

[-James-]

Is this it?

Luke 11

5. And he said unto them, Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go unto him at midnight, and say unto him, Friend, lend me three loaves;
6. For a friend of mine in his journey is come to me, and I have nothing to set before him?
7. And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee.
8. I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him as many as he needeth.
9. And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

 

[Quahom1]

I see your point about the faith issue, but I'm not sure what theme you're talking about. I was thinking Mustard seed in this passage, but only because that kind of faith has been on my mind lately. It seems all the themes blend into each other.

I'm curious about what you're speaking of, Q. That way I can measure it for myself. Where you suggest that if we keep coming at God he will answer. I'm not sure I'm familiar with that passage.


James

There was a judge, who feared neither God nor man. But a woman kept coming to him for judgement, over and over and over again. Finally he relented and granted her judgment. How much quicker the Lord who loves us will grant judgement....

In the case of the woman who "beseeched" the Lord...she knew the judge, and she would take "no" for no answer...just like the Roman Centurian. They both understood orders. They did not look to Jesus as a person to beg from. They simply said, "your will be done, but consider us, because we understand the laws you speak of sir...and we believe".

Open and shut cases. They didn't believe...they KNEW! They were beyond belief...

Where we all hope to be one day?...

v/r

Joshua

 

[-James-]

I see the similarity. Is it OT or New? It would make my search a bit easier, lol.


James

 

[Quahom1]

I see the similarity. Is it OT or New? It would make my search a bit easier, lol.


James

ahhhhh,

Luke 18

Now read it in it's entirety, James (last time I give you a gimme). You gotta search for yourself...

v/r

Joshua