Sin and Redemption

[inhumility]

Hi everybody!
On the Christian Board a thread in the name of Sin and Redemption is being discussed, I would have liked to discuss on the topic there but that might have infringed my Christian friend’s feelings which is not my intention. They are free to believe in whatever manner they like. However, I would like to give here my Ahmadia ( true Islamic) view on the topic which is deep routed in reason, human psyche, rationality and also the most secure and protected revelation of Quran.
The concept of the Christians friends that Jesus Christ came into this world to show love to the sinners by taking the curse of their sins on his own shoulders and for that very purpose he was killed for their sins. We don’t deny that as all ProphetsMessengers of GodAllahYHWH endeavored to make their followers virtuous , hence they told them ways and means how they could save themselves from the poison of sins, so did JesusYeshuaIssa. But to say that he died on Cross to lift their sins on his shoulders is not correct. First of all JesusYeshuaIssa never died on Cross, so that premise is proved untrue. Secondly, there is no established relationship between sins of one person with the sacrifice of another person. Religions are deep routed in the human psyche; no other religion is known to have knowledge of such sacrifice of a Son of God being brutally killed for their sins i.e. Hindus, Sikhs, Jews, Zoroastrians, Muslims etc; all are humans if at all it should have concerned their sins GodAllahYHWH must have told them also about it. Thirdly it presents a very cruel concept of God who cannot forgive sins of the human beings without sacrifice of his Son. All human beings are said to be created on the image of God, could a Christian friend here imagine of killing his son like this? So, human conscience rejects it totally. They say God is love, contrary to this if one accepts this concept that would mean God is cruel, He could not be kind and loving to his son, so how could He be kind and loving to others?! A point to ponder, please.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi - a peaceful faith in Islam

 

[Francis king]

well said, inhumility

 

[Prober]

Thank you, inhumility, for this post.

We don’t deny that as all ProphetsMessengers of GodAllahYHWH endeavored to make their followers virtuous , hence they told them ways and means how they could save themselves from the poison of sins, so did JesusYeshuaIssa. But to say that he died on Cross to lift their sins on his shoulders is not correct. First of all JesusYeshuaIssa never died on Cross, so that premise is proved untrue.

I feel differently but I'm listening...

Secondly, there is no established relationship between sins of one person with the sacrifice of another person.

well, not person, but God...

Thirdly it presents a very cruel concept of God who cannot forgive sins of the human beings without sacrifice of his Son.

I don't believe that it's His son, as in "progeny". I believe Jesus is spoken of as His son in the way that each of us is God's son (or servant).

All human beings are said to be created on the image of God, could a Christian friend here imagine of killing his son like this? So, human conscience rejects it totally. They say God is love, contrary to this if one accepts this concept that would mean God is cruel, He could not be kind and loving to his son, so how could He be kind and loving to others?! A point to ponder, please.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi - a peaceful faith in Islam

I believe He sacrifices Himself. There is only one God and there is no other. It's not that a human has to die. The only payment good enough for God is God so He makes a plan where He can come for a while to be with us.

Best Regards,
Mark

 

[inhumility]

Hi everybody!
It is neither justifiable nor rational at all that the curse of one’s sins should be put on someone else, not to speak of the collection of millions people’s sin on a single individual for nothing. Quran says it very categorically “wa la tazeru wazeratun wezra aukhraa” Sura Bani Israel, 17:16; meaning none would bear the burden of someone else. I want to elucidate Quranic guidance; I think it appropriate that I may show the mistake of this principle of the Christians so that a person who wants to make a comparison of teachings of Quran and NTBible he could do it with ease.
Let it be known that the Christians principle that God loved humankind so for their emancipation he thus arranged that the burden of sins of the disobedient, infidels and wrongdoer ones He put on his loving son Jesus. To free humankind from sins He made Jesus a cursed one and Jesus was hanged on the cursed tree. This principle is a bad one, from all aspects. If we weigh it on the scale of justice it would prove to be a sheer cruelty; would it make any sense to punish “y” for the crime committed by “x”? Human conscience does not approve it altogether that the actual culprit should be released and his punishment should be borne by someone else who has done no sin at all.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi - a peaceful faith in Islam

 

[Silas]

We don’t deny that as all ProphetsMessengers of GodAllahYHWH endeavored to make their followers virtuous , hence they told them ways and means how they could save themselves from the poison of sins, so did JesusYeshuaIssa.

Was Jesus born of a virgin? Also, did he live a sinless life?

But to say that he died on Cross to lift their sins on his shoulders is not correct. First of all JesusYeshuaIssa never died on Cross, so that premise is proved untrue.

The Qura'n says that Isa was taken up to Heaven and did not die on the cross. This is quite different from that of Jewish history, Christian history, and secular history, that all testify to a crusfied Christ. Now certainly, none but the Christians believe that He - speak of the Christ - rose on the 3rd day, but it is still interesting that all three admit the crusifixion. Why should we believe Islam that came years later?

Secondly, there is no established relationship between sins of one person with the sacrifice of another person. Religions are deep routed in the human psyche; no other religion is known to have knowledge of such sacrifice of a Son of God being brutally killed for their sins i.e. Hindus, Sikhs, Jews, Zoroastrians, Muslims etc; all are humans if at all it should have concerned their sins GodAllahYHWH must have told them also about it.

Here again your comments are deeply rooted in your supposition that Christanity is false. Fine. Let's take it back to the Old Testament. As a Muslim, you should know the Law. What did Moses do to the door post in Egypt that the death angel may pass over them? Why did he do it?

Thirdly it presents a very cruel concept of God who cannot forgive sins of the human beings without sacrifice of his Son.

That may be true. You may, in fact, precieve God to be cruel for not forgiving sins without being propetiated. Still, however, your "feelings" about the situation should be used to judge God, especially if it goes against what God has said about himself. Do not try to make God into what you think He ought to be. Your ways arent his ways and His thoughts infinitely dwarf yours. "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!" - Romans 11:33

All human beings are said to be created on the image of God, could a Christian friend here imagine of killing his son like this? So, human conscience rejects it totally.

The Everlastingly immutable and uncreated God has a wisdom that is infinte. Would you, a mere finite being, try to bring a charge against God? You would do well to think on Isa 55:8-9..."For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

They say God is love, contrary to this if one accepts this concept that would mean God is cruel, He could not be kind and loving to his son, so how could He be kind and loving to others?! A point to ponder, please.

You're argument is very small and trite. You argue from a nonsensical point that assumes the Creator has the mind of his created. To be honest, that is the height of arrogance. Futhermore, the premise from which you build your argument on is wrong - here's how: You assume that because God is love, he has to love no matter what and therefore forgive sinners. Yet, God says of Himself that He is love and hates wickedness. He loves righteousness and holiness. He loves good and abhors what is evil. Therefore, the Lord punishes those who do evil. You will do well to ponder God's introduction of himself in Holy writ. Notice how God introduces Himself:

"The LORD passed before him and proclaimed, 'The LORD, the LORD, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation.'" - Exo 34:6

 

[Pico]

Nice post, Silas.

There are other aspects of Cristianity and God's Character that need to be understood to understand the concept of forgiveness:

First of all, is God's character: God is completely Holy, and undeniably just. It's part of his very nature. He is so perfectly Holy that he demands perfection and cannot look upon sin. Being Just, means he has to punish wrongs. His very nature demands nothing less.

Now, the foundation of Christianity is that God made Adam and Eve in a perfect world without pain, sin, and death. Adam disoebyed God ('sin' means to fail to stand up to God's standard of perfection), and God told him that the penalty of sin is death (both physical and spiritual). Man was completely cut off from God. Man brought sin into the world, and everybody afterward was born in the image of their sinful parents. Humans have a sinful nature. And because everyone sinned, God had to punish that with being cut off from him (in Hell).

Now, what God did to save us was that he himself (Jesus) was born of a woman, a decendent of Adam (Jesus is reffered to as the "Last Adam" a few times). Being God, he doesn't have the sinful nature of humans, his nature is pure and holy, and although he was tempted he simply cannot sin because it's just not apart of his nature. What God then did was he placed the sin of the entire human race upon himself (Jesus), and pured out his judgement for that sin on Jesus. Since the justice that God's nature demands has been paid for, now anyone who wants to can get into heaven simply by faith.

One thing that's a dificult concept for many people is the trinity. There's the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It's not 3 "parts," they are all God (like how space is made up of 3 dimentions) but 3 distinct centers of consciousness with distinct roles. The names Father, Son and Holy Spirit are used as a way for humans to understand the concept, but Jesus is not the litteral son as we understand it.


Now this is the part that completely blows my mind. For all eternity, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have always been together (for they are one). God made man knowing man would disobey Him. God didn't have to do anything for us, we willingly disobeyed him and deserve to be sent to Hell. Before Jesus was arrested, he pleaded with the Father not to let what was about to happen happen to him (he was just being honest; he was human, he was scared). The thing that grieved him the most and caused im so much distress was that he would have to be completly cut off from the Father (a fate so horrible that Jesus who's seen and known everything was completely and utterly terrified of). Which is something that never had happened in all eternity. Jesus pleaded "You can do ANYTHING! Anythign is possible with you. But I want your will, not my own." God said this is the only way. God did this to show us how much he loved us that he would do such a thing for us.

 

[Silas]

Nice post, Pico!

 

[Amica]

Well said, Inhumilty.

Islam teaches that one does not bear someone else's sins on his/her shoulder, so from islamic point of view: Jesus pbuh could not have died because of the sins of others.

I think that Christians started believing in the sacrifice because that went along with their belief in the divinity of Jesus pbuh. If they did not believe in the sacrfice on the cross, that would bring into question Jesus pbuh 'divinity.' The Divine One (God Allmighty) lives and always lived and will never die. Jesus pbuh died. Even Christians, while believing he was divine, admit that he died. Except that they needed the resurrection and the sacrifice to continue the belief in the 'divinity.'

Repetenance, belief and prayer to One God is what helps one get Salvation. A human cannot cause Salvation to another human being. He/she can only help a person come to the path of the Truth, teach them the Truth that he/she knows, but cannot save them. Only God Allmighty saves His creation. Not Jesus pbuh.

 

[Pico]

Well said, Inhumilty.

Islam teaches that one does not bear someone else's sins on his/her shoulder, so from islamic point of view: Jesus pbuh could not have died because of the sins of others.

I think that Christians started believing in the sacrifice because that went along with their belief in the divinity of Jesus pbuh. If they did not believe in the sacrfice on the cross, that would bring into question Jesus pbuh 'divinity.' The Divine One (God Allmighty) lives and always lived and will never die. Jesus pbuh died. Even Christians, while believing he was divine, admit that he died. Except that they needed the resurrection and the sacrifice to continue the belief in the 'divinity.'

Repetenance, belief and prayer to One God is what helps one get Salvation. A human cannot cause Salvation to another human being. He/she can only help a person come to the path of the Truth, teach them the Truth that he/she knows, but cannot save them. Only God Allmighty saves His creation. Not Jesus pbuh.

I think you missed the part that Jesus was God. He claimed to be God and proved it by his miricales. He also said after his ressurection that "your sins are forgiven."

 

[Amica]

Hello.

Pico, just because Jesus pbuh performed miracles did not prove him to be divine. Many Hebrew prophets performed miracles:

Moses divided the sea.
Abraham, it was mentioned in the Qur'an, survived fire.
Solomon could speak to the birds and commanded the spirts of the unseen.
etc.

Does that make any one of them to be divine?

The New Testament was written after Jesus's Prophethood years. Based on this, there is no proof that he claimed to be divine. Why would God come to flesh to kill himself (God forgive me!) to prove a point? Would not it be easier to reveal Himself to the humanity like He did to some of the previous prophets? Why does God need to become a human to save humanity from their sins when He can send a Revelation stating so?

There were many before Jesus savs who were believed to be divine and resurrected. One of them was Mithra. Mithraism was roman religion before Christianity became the offical religion of Roman Empire. After horrible genocide towards early Christians, their religious was usurped and blended into the pagan tradition of godman belives. In order to make Jesus 'be divine' they needed the Mithra's sacrifice and resurrection story. And that is what they did to Christianity back then.

 

[Pico]

Hello.

Pico, just because Jesus pbuh performed miracles did not prove him to be divine. Many Hebrew prophets performed miracles:

Moses divided the sea.
Abraham, it was mentioned in the Qur'an, survived fire.
Solomon could speak to the birds and commanded the spirts of the unseen.
etc.

Does that make any one of them to be divine?

The New Testament was written after Jesus's Prophethood years. Based on this, there is no proof that he claimed to be divine. Why would God come to flesh to kill himself (God forgive me!) to prove a point? Would not it be easier to reveal Himself to the humanity like He did to some of the previous prophets? Why does God need to become a human to save humanity from their sins when He can send a Revelation stating so?

There were many before Jesus savs who were believed to be divine and resurrected. One of them was Mithra. Mithraism was roman religion before Christianity became the offical religion of Roman Empire. After horrible genocide towards early Christians, their religious was usurped and blended into the pagan tradition of godman belives. In order to make Jesus 'be divine' they needed the Mithra's sacrifice and resurrection story. And that is what they did to Christianity back then.

The ability to perform miracles means that that person is from God; Jesus himself said that. Jesus claimed to be God (there are 4 different accounts of this in the New Testament). Now, assuming he was not God, such a claim would be blasphemy, and if Jesus blasphemed, why would God give him the power to perform miracles?

Now the reason God became a man was because it was necessary for the atonement. In the Old Testament the priests sacrifices innocent animals as a covering for their sins, only animals couldn't take away the sins of humans. So God took it upon himself to provide the perfect sacrifice: himself, Jesus, God in the flesh. God became a descendant of Adam and suffered God's punishment for mankind's sins; and since our debt has been paid, we can get to heaven for free, just by having faith. Jesus was that revelation. He was the Messiah that God had revealed to the prophets of old.

So the Romans had a religion where someone was resurrected from the dead. How long was that story passed around by word of mouth before it was written? Being told by word of mouth over many years legendary embellishments would inevitably arise. The gospel was written by first-hand eyewitnesses and/or the person talked with many people who were eye witnesses to the accounts. There was simply not enough time from Jesus' resurrection to the accounts being written for legendary embellishments to form.

 

[Amica]

Hello again.

So, miracles from God does not make something be a god. Humanity as a whole is a miracle from God, just like animals, plants, unseen and unseen. Everything in the universe is a miracle of God, because He created everything. Being a miracle or performing miracles with the help FROM God does not make one divine.

Mithra legends were around long enough for Romans to be included in the roman version of Christianity. Ancient pagans did not care much about accuracy, after all they did not follow God's Law as monotheistic teachings present people with.

One of the main charges against the Christians in the old times was the Mithra legend. They accused that Christians copied the pagan old traditions and tales.

Jesus pbuh grew up with the Old Testament teachings. Being a prophet pbuh we can say that he was a follower of the OT tradition in many aspects with some new teachings. Jesus proclaiming to be a god would be blasphemy because according to the OT, believers are not to be worshipping idols or humans. Considering the fact that Jewish people used/use the methaphor 'children of God' I suspect Jesus did the same. If he ever said he was 'son of God' he meant it metaphorically.
Today's Christians consider themselves to be 'children of God.' Should the future generations hundreds of years from now (if humanity is given that much time) think that there were once people calling themselves 'children of God' and therefore they were 'gods'? Of course not. With all their miracles of mushroom cloud bombs, warfare, etc? Nope! Still not 'gods.' Because they are mortals. Of course unless Christians later invent the idea that the old Christians resurrected, that is.

 

[Amica]

Also...

Humanity will resurrect on The Day... resurrection does not make one a 'god.'

And, was not there a Hebrew Prophet pbuh who was actually taken away from Earth? I forgot his name, but it is interesting that he was never said to have died physically. Now, remembering him how can people call Jesus pbuh divine when there was a man before him who did not even die physically?

God is Eternal, He never dies. Humans are mortals and they die, and later are resurrected BY God Almighty! It is God's choice whether He resurrects someone early or not, but definately, it something allowed to happen to humans (the resurrection).

What about angels? The messangers from God? His army? Certainly they help miracles manifest in the human world, but no one is calling them divine?

What about satan? Christians believe him to be the opposite of God. Do Christians view satan to be divine as well?

Miracles are from God just like everything else: His creation. It does not come from humans.

God has no one to answer to, because He is above all. Why did Jesus pray to God? What kind of 'god' would pray to himself? What kind of 'god' would ask himself on the cross: "God, why have you forsaken me?" What kind of 'god' would commit a suicide to help others? Based on the 'suicide sacrifice' of the Christian teachings about the Jesus crucifixion, then today's disgrace of suicide bombers among the Muslim populations have something to use to prove their believes, because after all they claim they commit suicide bombings for Islam, God, and Muslims. But of course, are they really?

 

[Pico]

God has no one to answer to, because He is above all. Why did Jesus pray to God? What kind of 'god' would pray to himself? What kind of 'god' would ask himself on the cross: "God, why have you forsaken me?" What kind of 'god' would commit a suicide to help others? Based on the 'suicide sacrifice' of the Christian teachings about the Jesus crucifixion, then today's disgrace of suicide bombers among the Muslim populations have something to use to prove their believes, because after all they claim they commit suicide bombings for Islam, God, and Muslims. But of course, are they really?

Jesus prayed because he was a human, and humans should pray all the time. Jesus was the example to follow, a human life lived perfectly. Jesus said "Why have you forsaken me" because God had left him, Jesus was human and he felt human emotions (i'm sure you've probably felt forsaken at some point).

The kind of God who would willingly give up his life for others is a God who truely loved mankind. There is no greater love than to give up your life for someone, and that's what Jesus, who is God (God is love, after all), did.


Suicide is a sin because only God has the right to take someone's life (God gave life, only he can take it away), not man. Jesus gave up his life because it was part of God's plan for the redemption of mankind.

 

[inhumility]

well said, inhumility

Hi
Salam
Hi
Thanks for you appreciation. In fact I would like that everybody, a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, a Hindu, a Zoroastrian etc, etc all of Revealed Religions should participate in this discussion freely, in this Islamic board, yet within the normal moral codes of their religions. First we should endeavor to set principled criteria on the topics under discussion which should be reasonable, acceptable and understandable to everybody of whatever religion or faith/sect one belongs to. Then one should prove that the religion one belongs to is the best of all others with rational arguments which are reasonable, acceptable and understandable to others. Then of course one can claim on merit that such and such religion is outstanding or is great, or greater than others or the greatest of the all. We are not jealous or hostile to any religion that is why we have chosen this Comparative Religions forum for our discussions. If we hate others then what is the need to write or post in a discussion forum. One could sit pretty at home without indulging into any discussion and assume that one’s religion is the greatest of all. That is my sincere approach, others may think differently.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam

 

[inhumility]

Thank you, inhumility, for this post.

Hi Prober/Mark!
I thank you for your appreciation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by inhumility http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/sin-and-redemption-6764.html#post95488
We don’t deny that as all ProphetsMessengers of GodAllahYHWH endeavored to make their followers virtuous , hence they told them ways and means how they could save themselves from the poison of sins, so did JesusYeshuaIssa. But to say that he died on Cross to lift their sins on his shoulders is not correct. First of all JesusYeshuaIssa never died on Cross, so that premise is proved untrue.


Prober : I feel differently but I'm listening...
inhumility : That is the beauty of discussion and enjoyment of it. This way we learn from one another. I would shortly start a thread here in this forum “Jesus did not die on Cross, or he died on Cross?”. You shall have to wait until such time.
Thanks for waiting patiently.
Quote:
Secondly, there is no established relationship between sins of one person with the sacrifice of another person.


Prober : Well, not person, but God...
inhumility : Could you please disclose your denomination in Christianity?
If you or your denomination subscribe to the OTBible, then one cannot rationally believe that a blemish of becoming physical could be attributed to God. The creator cannot become a creature. Kindly reflect on it, and then you would understand, please.
Quote:
Thirdly it presents a very cruel concept of God who cannot forgive sins of the human beings without sacrifice of his Son.


Prober : I don't believe that it's His son, as in "progeny". I believe Jesus is spoken of as His son in the way that each of us is God's son (or servant).
inhumility : That is the same as I believe, but other Christian posters on CR like our freinds Silas, and Pico do not. Son of God was a common usage and proverbial in OTBible. It is Paul, and those who followed him, who took it to be literally. Jesus never meant it literally. But most of the Christians believe it to be physically, to me ,there they are wrong.
Thanks for your good views.
Quote:
All human beings are said to be created on the image of God, could a Christian friend here imagine of killing his son like this? So, human conscience rejects it totally. They say God is love, contrary to this if one accepts this concept that would mean God is cruel, He could not be kind and loving to his son, so how could He be kind and loving to others?! A point to ponder, please.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi - a peaceful faith in Islam

Prober : I believe He sacrifices Himself. There is only one God and there is no other. It's not that a human has to die. The only payment good enough for God is God so He makes a plan where He can come for a while to be with us.
inhumility : I would rather differ with you here, most respectfully.
He never has to come physically or literally. That’s why he since the time of Adam to date, has been sending PerfectMen, ProphetsMessengers as his representatives. You know that the Jews of the time of Moses wanted to see GodAllahYHWH physically and asked for that to Moses. They had to revert from their irrational stand as no one could see God with physical eyes. Through arguments, through signs through dreams, through visions and through Words; yes, one could strengthen one’s belief in him.

Prober: Best Regards,
Mark
inhumility : Thanks
I am an Ahmadi - a peaceful faith in Islam

 

[inhumility]

Hi everybody!
This is further to my post # 4 on this thread.
I want to tell my friends here that I am a follower of the rational and reason based concepts of the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi written by him mostly in Urdu and only few have been translated in English. My writings intenionally or unintentionally are influenced by him. His writings are based on Quran and other religious scriptures . If I make a mistake that is mine not his. Now coming to the topic, sin and redemption:

When we contemplate on the nature of sin from the aspect of inherent spiritual philosophy behind it and its reality our research also confirms this fact that this belief is a bad belief. The sin in reality is a poison created when a human is dispossessed of the obedience of God and deprived of His fervent love and loving memory of Him and is totally unfortunate in this respect. Like a tree when it is uprooted and is unable to suck in water from the earth its process of becoming dried up starts and all its greenery gets ruined. Just like it the individual whose heart is uprooted from the love of God, that dryness of sin prevails over him, hence its cure lies in God’s law of nature in three distinct ways:

• Love
• Istighfar which means the natural desire to press something or to remain covered and sheltered. As long as a tree has its roots imbedded in earth it hopes to get green again.
• The third cure is repentance i.e. to suck water of life with utmost humility and to bend towards God and to draw near Him to get respite from the sinful posture by doing appropriate and good works and repentance is not mere with the tongue but the completeness of repentance is with good and appropriate actions. All virtues are done with a desire to complete the repentance as all are done to draw one near God. Praying is also a means of repentance and with it we endeavor nearness to God. It is for this that God created the spirit in humans and named it soul as its real comfort is affirmation with God and His love and His obedience and that’s why it was named nafus (in Arabic diction nafus means the image of the same thing and hence it is destined to unite with God. To have connection of heart with God is like a tree in the garden which is steadfastly embedded in the earth. This is what is called heaven of a man. Like a tree that sucks in water from earth and draws water inwards from earth and through it casts out its poisonous fumes, the heart of a human is just like that he sucks in love of God by drawing water and by ousting poisonous substances and gets flourished and with great ease it throws out such hazardous substances and in God it grows and from Him it flourishes and gets its power and spreads and shows its very beautiful greenery and bears good fruits. But he who is not rooted in God he cannot draw and suck nourishing water and hence gets dried up eventually and at last drops its leaves and gets dried up and what is left are only ill shaped branches. The dryness of sin is created because of losing contact and hence its cure lies in straight and consistent contact. The law of nature stands witness to it. GodAllahYHWH hints towards it when He says in The Holy Quran : Chapter 89: Al-Fajr:

[89:28] O, thou soul at peace!
[89:29] Return to thy Lord, thou well-pleased with Him and He well-pleased with thee.
[89:30] So enter thou among My chosen servants,
[89:31] And enter thou My Garden.
Unquote.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi - a peaceful faith in Islam

 

[Prober]

Prober : I feel differently but I'm listening...
inhumility : That is the beauty of discussion and enjoyment of it. This way we learn from one another.

I completely agree!

inhumility : Could you please disclose your denomination in Christianity?
If you or your denomination subscribe to the OTBible, then one cannot rationally believe that a blemish of becoming physical could be attributed to God. The creator cannot become a creature. Kindly reflect on it, and then you would understand, please.

I'm a Seventh-day Adventist. We believe in the OT, but I don't see your point. I'll think...

Thanks for your good views.

You are welcome!

inhumility : I would rather differ with you here, most respectfully.
He never has to come physically or literally. That’s why he since the time of Adam to date, has been sending PerfectMen, ProphetsMessengers as his representatives. You know that the Jews of the time of Moses wanted to see GodAllahYHWH physically and asked for that to Moses. They had to revert from their irrational stand as no one could see God with physical eyes. Through arguments, through signs through dreams, through visions and through Words; yes, one could strengthen one’s belief in him.

I see what you're saying here...

inhumility : Thanks
I am an Ahmadi - a peaceful faith in Islam

Thank you, again.

Best Regards,
Mark

 

[Pico]

The creator cannot become a creature. Kindly reflect on it, and then you would understand, please.

Why couldn't he? God is soverign, meaning he can do whatever he wants. He has total and complete power and control. Why couldn't he be born a man if he wanted to? In fact, God told us he became a Man. Jesus said "If you see me you see the Father," "The Father and I are one."

 

[inhumility]

Why couldn't he? God is soverign, meaning he can do whatever he wants. He has total and complete power and control. Why couldn't he be born a man if he wanted to? In fact, God told us he became a Man. Jesus said "If you see me you see the Father," "The Father and I are one."

Prober : I don't believe that it's His son, as in "progeny". I believe Jesus is spoken of as His son in the way that each of us is God's son (or servant).
inhumility : That is the same as I believe, but other Christian posters on CR like our freinds Silas, and Pico do not.

I would like to ask my frieds Silas and Pico : do you also believe as I and Prober believe that Jesus only in a metaphoric sense was Son of God, not literally?
What are your denominations in Christianity, please?
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi - a peaceful faith in Islam