Queen of Heaven

Caimanson said:
I've lived in some latin american countries, I can see why people are asking the question. As far as I can see the virgin Mary does seem to take the forefront, in terms of who people pray to and in terms of religious celebrations.
Now I'm not a catholic and have never been one, so I cannot speak from the inside. I am also aware that catholicism is huge and very diverse.

The way I see it latin american catholicism is heavily blended with the pagan traditions of the original inhabitants of the americas, and those of the african slaves, in some instances the boundary between say something like santeria is difficult to assert (I mean in the life of a an ordinary "catholic").
Check for example the story of the apparition of the Virgin of Guadalupe, it can't get more pagan than that. Check "los diablos de Yare" celabration on corpus christi as one of many religious celebrations that are heavily pagan in origin and content.

As far as I understand the catholic church is definetely aware of the pagan links and I think it was a deliberate evangelisation strategy during the colonisation of the americas, that is to christianise their pagan customs.

I think is the same phenomena in some asian countries where buddhism is heavily blended with traditional animistic and shamanistic traditions.

In places like the states or the uk where the culture has been predominatly protestant I think catholicism looks different, though I think mediterranean catholicism is closer to the latin american experience.

I just wonder how does catholicism accomodate all this variety in scriptural terms.
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Thanks for the confirmation. As far as the Papacy, the higher one is in the ozone, the less one cares. The concern for the masses is grass roots level. The Local priests must work with the faithful (and all bagage that comes with).

This is true no matter what the power or form of government.

maybe that's why I prefer middle management...
 
Excesses and arguments aside, the first step is to understand precisely what the theological poistion is addressing.

In the words of Anglican Oxford scholar, Dr. John Macquarrie:
My point 1:
"The matter [of Marian mediation] cannot be settled by pointing to the danger of exaggeration and abuse... "

My point 2:
"or by appealing to isolated texts of scripture ..."

My point 3:
"or by the desire not to say anything that might offend one's partners in ecumenical dialogue."

So we needd to get rid of those first. On Point2, before anyone suggests I'm implying get rid of scripture, I am not, but I am saying one cannot quote single verses as proof of anything without reference to the context of scripture as a whole. This is the kind of thing gnostics etc. do, they have their favourite verses – that 'prove' reincarnation for example, when it's a clear and undeniable fact of the totality of scripture that such waas never taught.

to continue:

"Unthinking enthusiasts may have elevated Mary's position to a virtual equality with Christ, but this aberration is not a necessary consequence of recognizing that there may be a truth striving for expression in words like Mediatrix and Co-redemptrix."

In short, people get carried away. That's why we have a Magisterium, and why we have theologians, and why we take a long time to deliberate. Of cource, we get criticised for not moving with the times, but too often 'moving' means enthusiasms for the latest novelty.

"All responsible theologians would agree that Mary's co-redemptive role is subordinate and auxiliary to the central role of Christ."

So let there be no doubt about that.

"But if she does have such a role, the more clearly we understand it, the better. And like other doctrines concerning Mary, it is not only saying something about her, but something more general about the Church as a whole, and even humanity as a whole."

I think that point sums it up.

Thomas
 
Thats a wonderful point, Thomas. It makes me think about how God created us to worship Him and if we arent worshipping Him we are worshipping something or someone else or even ourselves.
 
LeoSalinas22 said:
the church that doesn't worship the queen of heaven, the church that doesn't worship a crufifix made by the hands of man, the church that doesn't worship a mere man that calls himself the pope, whom i am certain puts on his underwear one leg at a time just like the rest of us. the true church is a body of people and not a building or a "organization". the true church is not of this world but of God. they don't support any governments of this world like the pope did with the nazis. they have found the narrow path that no one else doesn't seem to care to look for. that is the true church.
Click to expand...
i have found it
:)
 
QUEEN​
OF THE HEAVENS​

The title of a goddess worshiped by apostate Israelites in the days of Jeremiah.—Jer 44:17-19.
 
Thomas said:
the church that doesn't worship the queen of heaven,
Nor do Catholics. Get your facts right.

the church that doesn't worship a crufifix made by the hands of man,
Nor do Catholics. Get your facts right.

the church that doesn't worship a mere man that calls himself the pope,
Nor do Catholics. Get your facts right.

the true church is a body of people and not a building or a "organization".
What is a 'body of people' if not an organisation. A disorganisation? An unorganisation? Get your facts right.

the true church is not of this world but of God.
Then it doesn't exists at all, does it? And the 'Church of God' was founded here, by Christ, on the Faith of Peter. Read your Scripture. Get your facts right.

they don't support any governments of this world like the pope did with the nazis.
Again, get your facts right ...

Put it this way: I could say, with a much greater degree of 'accuracy', that the US Government supported the Nazis. But that would be to present a one-sided view of what happened, and distort the truth of the affair, but nevertheless, the US poured significant amounts of cash and material support into National Socialism to bolster a crumbling state.

they have found the narrow path that no one else doesn't seem to care to look for.
Again ... who ...

i say this in the most humble and truethful way.
It doesn't read like it. Quite the reverse, in fact. I suggest you examine what you've beed fed as 'truth' as most of it appears to be propaganda.

Thomas
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thomas, i have seen with mine own eyes, that people worship her and look for answers to her, instead of our Father in heaven, we should always look to Him for all of our answers. i have seen these things with mine own eyes. don't believe everthing you read, man. you have to let our Father reveal and witness these things for yourself. i am blessed to have these things revealed to me right in front of me. you can't tell me that you haven't seen people worshipping the virgin mary statues or praying to them or the crucifix. i have seen it. people look to the pope for answers instead of looking for our Father in heaven. i have seen this with mine own eyes. when you look for answers to someone or something or you give praise and glory to that someone or something that is called worshipping. remember that the Lord our God, is a jealous God. if man organized a "group" or church then it is not of God's will but of man's. it has to be done by His will and His will alone. the Christ Himself says he is not of this world. if He is not of this world, then neither am i because i will follow Him and not the pope. i am pretty sure that His church is not of this world either. do you know what Christ meant by Him not being of this world? you shouldn't concern yourself with the politics or things of this world. instead, concern yourself with the Creator of heaven and earth. above all, i love you, i don't care what anyone thinks. lets exalt His Name together into all of eternity. Amen
 
thomas, i have seen with mine own eyes...
Then you have seen people in error. I am talking about doctrine.

I have known many Catholics with the most profound devotion to the Blessed Virgin, and I have known many with the most profound devotion to other saints, and I have known of miracles performed in the name of those saints, and I have my own devotion to favoured saints ...

... but these are family friends ... we do not worship them, we ask their intercession on our behalf with our Heavenly Father ... they have gone before us, after all ...

don't believe everthing you read, man.
And don't believe everything you see.

you have to let our Father reveal and witness these things for yourself.
And if he chooses to reveal them through his saints? They worked in His name for us in their lives and by their lives ... and as they now live in Him, is it not that they might continue to work in His name?

i am blessed to have these things revealed to me right in front of me. you can't tell me that you haven't seen people worshipping the virgin mary statues or praying to them or the crucifix. i have seen it.
I can tell you that I have seen people praying for the Blessed Virgin to pray for us on our behalf ... as she interceded witrh her Son at Cana.

As for praying to the crucifix, do you think they pray to a piece of wood, or do they pray to the person depicted upon that piece of wood. Does Christ crucified mean nothing to you, then?

people look to the pope for answers instead of looking for our Father in heaven.
The Popse is the shepherd of the Shepherd:

John 21:15-17
"Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs ... He saith to him again the second time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep ... He saith unto him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep."

if man organized a "group" or church then it is not of God's will but of man's. it has to be done by His will and His will alone.
As it was. Founded by Christ, on Peter, as told in the Gospels:
Matthew 16:18
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
That is a church built on Peter, who was very much of this world.

Matthew 18:15-17
"Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone ... And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."

If Christ says He founded a Church on Peter, and here He tells his followers that the Church is the final arbiter of dispute, then I am faithful to the church that He founded, and not to any teachings of men that say otherwise.

If I am not to listen to any man ... why should I listen to you?

And how would you or I have come to know of Him, had we not listened?

Thomas
 
Thomas said:
thomas, i have seen with mine own eyes...
Then you have seen people in error. I am talking about doctrine.

I have known many Catholics with the most profound devotion to the Blessed Virgin, and I have known many with the most profound devotion to other saints, and I have known of miracles performed in the name of those saints, and I have my own devotion to favoured saints ...

... but these are family friends ... we do not worship them, we ask their intercession on our behalf with our Heavenly Father ... they have gone before us, after all ...

don't believe everthing you read, man.
And don't believe everything you see.

you have to let our Father reveal and witness these things for yourself.
And if he chooses to reveal them through his saints? They worked in His name for us in their lives and by their lives ... and as they now live in Him, is it not that they might continue to work in His name?

i am blessed to have these things revealed to me right in front of me. you can't tell me that you haven't seen people worshipping the virgin mary statues or praying to them or the crucifix. i have seen it.
I can tell you that I have seen people praying for the Blessed Virgin to pray for us on our behalf ... as she interceded witrh her Son at Cana.

As for praying to the crucifix, do you think they pray to a piece of wood, or do they pray to the person depicted upon that piece of wood. Does Christ crucified mean nothing to you, then?

people look to the pope for answers instead of looking for our Father in heaven.
The Popse is the shepherd of the Shepherd:

John 21:15-17
"Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs ... He saith to him again the second time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep ... He saith unto him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep."

if man organized a "group" or church then it is not of God's will but of man's. it has to be done by His will and His will alone.
As it was. Founded by Christ, on Peter, as told in the Gospels:
Matthew 16:18
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
That is a church built on Peter, who was very much of this world.

Matthew 18:15-17
"Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone ... And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."

If Christ says He founded a Church on Peter, and here He tells his followers that the Church is the final arbiter of dispute, then I am faithful to the church that He founded, and not to any teachings of men that say otherwise.

If I am not to listen to any man ... why should I listen to you?

And how would you or I have come to know of Him, had we not listened?

Thomas
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you say that it is okay to pray to graven images even when our Father says not to? even if they are of His Christ? His sacrifice means everthing to this worthless sinner, namely me. no where in His instruction and discipline does He appoint man to name His saints for Him and on top of that, then ask them to intercede for us. we pray and seek His face only thru His Christ. no where in His Infinite Wisdom does he say to appoint a pope as our shephard. only our Father is our Shephard.
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. Proverbs 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct thy paths. acknowledge Him, not the pope or man appointed saints. look, i didn't know you were catholic and i never said for you to listen or trust me. i am a sinner, just like you and everyone else on this planet. as i have mentioned before, i love Him and only Him. more than my own family and friends. just like Lot or Abraham. everything i have was given to me by Him and for Him. for His glory. no one elses. i don't know about you, but i listened to my heart, to His Voice. not to man.
 
Hi LeoSalinas22 –

no where in His instruction and discipline does He appoint man to name His saints for Him...
Check your Scripture:
Psalm 106:16 "They envied Moses also in the camp, [and] Aaron the saint of the LORD."

Daniel 8:13 "Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain [saint] which spake ... "

Philippians 4:21 "Salute every saint in Christ Jesus... "

The Hebrew is 'qadosh' which is translated as 'holy one, one set apart, saint.'

... and on top of that, then ask them to intercede for us.

Well, then we disagree, for I think He does just that, and more –

Matthew 16:19
"And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

And again –

Matthew 18:18-19
"Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven."

I think His love knows no bounds, and whatever those who love Him ask of Him, it is theirs ...

After all, did not Abraham intercede with God, for the righteous in Sodom and Gomorrah? (Genesis 18) I think there is a long history of intercession.

Thomas
 
I have known many Catholics with the most profound devotion to the Blessed Virgin, and I have known many with the most profound devotion to other saints, and I have known of miracles performed in the name of those saints, and I have my own devotion to favoured saints ...
Click to expand...

I would like to share these.

John 4:48 Then Jesus said to him, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe."

Acts 4:30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus."

Mrk9:39 But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.

2The2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,

I have never heard of people performing miracles in the name of someone other than Christ Jesus and I have to be honest that I got that wrong feeling that Ive learned to trust. I looked everywhere for biblical examples of miracles being performed in the name of someone other than Jesus and I could not find anything. As I was looking for examples the scriptures I posted jumped out at me. Now.. I am not saying that anyone Thomas saw performing miracles was of the enemy.. what I am saying is that we cant use that as an argument for validation.. satan can certainly perform seemingly miraculous deeds and I believe he has done so.

THe first scripture I posted was something I strongly believe.. do we really need miracles to validate our faith? Blessed is the one who believes without seeing.

All I can do is look to the scriptures to base my beliefs on and I check everything against the scriptures.. if there happens to be one saying we can do miracles in the name of someone else could you please post it.. thanks. :)
 
Faithfulservant said:
I found this sometime back and this is a bit where I based my impression in regards to the obsession with Mary by the Marian followers. The apparitions of Mary start 9 mins into this hour and half video. Its called Messaged from Heaven.

Messages from Heaven - Google Video
Click to expand...

It also leads in with cheesy shots of "alien" film droppings(cuts) taken from some hollywood movie editor's floor. At least they didn't show Mary's face baked into some hot crossed buns.
 
Faithfulservant said:
I would like to share these.

John 4:48 Then Jesus said to him, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe."

Acts 4:30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus."

Mrk9:39 But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.

2The2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,

I have never heard of people performing miracles in the name of someone other than Christ Jesus and I have to be honest that I got that wrong feeling that Ive learned to trust. I looked everywhere for biblical examples of miracles being performed in the name of someone other than Jesus and I could not find anything. As I was looking for examples the scriptures I posted jumped out at me. Now.. I am not saying that anyone Thomas saw performing miracles was of the enemy.. what I am saying is that we cant use that as an argument for validation.. satan can certainly perform seemingly miraculous deeds and I believe he has done so.

THe first scripture I posted was something I strongly believe.. do we really need miracles to validate our faith? Blessed is the one who believes without seeing.

All I can do is look to the scriptures to base my beliefs on and I check everything against the scriptures.. if there happens to be one saying we can do miracles in the name of someone else could you please post it.. thanks. :)
Click to expand...
There are two distinct camps of thought here. Jesus tells us that miracles done in His name are genuine (that is from Him). Revelation tells us miracles will be done by other than Jesus, but they will not be done in His name. It is also said that there will be those to try to do miracles but will fail, because they do not prepare, or are false.

My concern is the linking of miracles to the "Queen of Heaven" concept as originated by the author of this thread. I think we are starting to drift abit (all of us).

v/r

Joshua
 
Dor said:
In 1954, Pope Pius XII officially declared Mary the Queen of Heaven.Here is the full text of his encyclical AD CAELI REGINAM.
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Dor said:
Now my question is why would he do that when we are told who was considered the queen of heaven in scripture?
Read Jeremiah 7 and 44 if you do not know.
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Hi
Just a little insertion, please; the matters of heaven are or would be, decided by GodAllahYHWH. Does it become necessary upon God, to acting upon what Pope has decided for Him? I think my Christian friends won’t mind it.
Love to JesusYeshuaIssa and the Christians!
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam
 
inhumility said:
Hi
Just a little insertion, please; the matters of heaven are or would be, decided by GodAllahYHWH. Does it become necessary upon God, to acting upon what Pope has decided for Him? I think my Christian friends won’t mind it.
Love to JesusYeshuaIssa and the Christians!
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam
Click to expand...

No, the Pope is the "vicar" for God. That is to say the pope acts as representitive of, but in recognition to what God has decided for he, the Pope to do. The pope does not tell God what to do. And any pope who has ever thought otherwise as met a rather ignoble end.

v/r

Joshua

p.s. did you know that Emperor/Pope Constantine refused to wear royal purple after he was baptised a Christian, despite the fact that he was Emperor of Rome? He died wearing his baptismal robes of simple white linen. He also had his whole family baptised and "prayed" they would accept the Christian faith. He never forced them.
 
Quahom1 said:
There are two distinct camps of thought here. Jesus tells us that miracles done in His name are genuine (that is from Him). Revelation tells us miracles will be done by other than Jesus, but they will not be done in His name. It is also said that there will be those to try to do miracles but will fail, because they do not prepare, or are false.

My concern is the linking of miracles to the "Queen of Heaven" concept as originated by the author of this thread. I think we are starting to drift abit (all of us).

v/r

Joshua
Click to expand...

That was not my intention Josh which is why I posted it in two seperate posts. My first post was in response to something Thomas said.. My second post was in line with the topic of this thread.
 
Faithfulservant said:
That was not my intention Josh which is why I posted it in two seperate posts. My first post was in response to something Thomas said.. My second post was in line with the topic of this thread.
Click to expand...

Understood. My comment was at large...

v/r

Joshua
 
Thomas said:
Hi LeoSalinas22 –

no where in His instruction and discipline does He appoint man to name His saints for Him...
Check your Scripture:
Psalm 106:16 "They envied Moses also in the camp, [and] Aaron the saint of the LORD."

Daniel 8:13 "Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain [saint] which spake ... "

Philippians 4:21 "Salute every saint in Christ Jesus... "

The Hebrew is 'qadosh' which is translated as 'holy one, one set apart, saint.'

... and on top of that, then ask them to intercede for us.

Well, then we disagree, for I think He does just that, and more –

Matthew 16:19
"And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

And again –

Matthew 18:18-19
"Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven."

I think His love knows no bounds, and whatever those who love Him ask of Him, it is theirs ...

After all, did not Abraham intercede with God, for the righteous in Sodom and Gomorrah? (Genesis 18) I think there is a long history of intercession.

Thomas
Click to expand...

seek His face, thomas, and meditate on His law, day and night. inscribe His Word on the tablet of your heart. seek Him only for His Name is Jealous. see you on another thread.
 
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