My first reaction is to disagree with you, but I'm thinking...Romans 8:26-30 (KJV) source: BibleGateway.com - Passage Lookup: Romans 8
26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
(Sounds like something Silas would have said.)
Thanks for the thought, Tariki.
Best Regards,
Mark
Mark,
Always good to exchange a few thoughts, especially between those of differing (?) faiths. At least its one step up from bigotry and intolerance.....
I think there is also a short passage in Ephesians where St Paul speaks of "being chosen before the foundation of the world". I remember reading a comment by Bishop Desmond Tutu concerning this verse, where he said that "therefore there is nothing we can do that can make God love us more, nothing we can do that can make God love us less". Comfort indeed for tired souls striving for self justification!
For me it is important to experience our day to day life as the expression of gratitude for what eternally IS - and for what is eternally being given - rather than as some sort of misguided attempt to "secure" or "earn" enlightenment/salvation. Obviously existentially, there was/is a moment when we perhaps experience a time of "salvation", yet for myself I must say that ultimately this is to be seen as the recognition of a gift eternally ours and not as our own appropriation of a gift that has been only up until then been offered. The Pure Land writer Unno has said.........."it is a necessary step on the path when self-power is seen to be, on reflection, the working of Other Power."
"Self" embraced by "Other".............
Will you tell us of Other Power?
Yes, but there is neither self power nor Other Power.
What is, is the graceful acceptance only. (From the Pure Land "saint" Saichi)
In relation to this are some words I have already quoted by the Trappist monk Thomas Merton, on another thread. I transpose it here.....
The reification of faith. Real meaning of the phrase we are saved by faith = we are saved by Christ, whom we encounter in faith. But constant disputation about faith has made Christians become obsessed with faith almost as an object, at least as an experience, a "thing" and in concentrating upon it they lose sight of Christ. Whereas faith without the encounter with Christ and without His presence is less than nothing. It is the deadest of dead works, an act elicited in a moral and existential void. To seek to believe that one believes, and arbitrarily to decree that one believes, and then to conclude that this gymnastic has been blessed by Christ - this is pathological Christianity. And a Christianity of works. One has this mental gymnastic in which to trust. One is safe, one possesses the psychic key to salvation......
Obviously as a Christian Merton speaks of the encounter with Christ rather than Amida..................yet from my own reading in Inter-Faith dialogue between certain Christian theologians and Pure Land practictioners, they can potentially be seen as one and the same. Personally, I feel there are still some fundamental differences between our faiths, at least as both have been expressed and understood within history. Yet for me only mutual enrichment can come from dialogue. And it is the certainly of my being "embraced, never to be abandoned" by Infinite Compassion that gives me the confidence to look without fear....or favour!
Anyway, that is the end of today's sermon!
All the best
Derek
Mark,
Always good to exchange a few thoughts, especially between those of differing (?) faiths. At least its one step up from bigotry and intolerance.....
Absolutely. That which stays in the light is not darkness.
"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Roman 8:38,39
So far, for myself, I still believe that one is constantly in the position of accepting or rejecting the gift. I am able to accept the "isness" of everything except my salvation.
This, I believe, is the principle difference between our "faiths" - "Self embraced by Other" versus "no self, no other".
Whereas my religious convictions reflect the first idea, my spiritual ideas are closer to the second.
Anyway, that is the end of today's sermon!
All the best
Derek
I hold the yellow flower.
Thanks, Derek!
Best regards,
Mark
Dor
Bible Thumper
S
shadowman
Guest
I have a feeling inside that makes me think jesus is real. I describe it as a good feeling deep in the heart.
I just dont know what to think about the rest of the world, well intentioned athiests, hindus, muslims, south american and african indiginous groups.
I just feel that something is wrong. We are all human, were in this togethwer and our beliefs cause fighting and hate.
I cant help but question whether the whole thing is brainwashing, and that no one knows for sure if they are right. Its a difficult thing to think about, and everyone goes through these thoughts.
and if we are wrong we get hell.
somewhere it doesnt seem right.
I just dont know what to think about the rest of the world, well intentioned athiests, hindus, muslims, south american and african indiginous groups.
I just feel that something is wrong. We are all human, were in this togethwer and our beliefs cause fighting and hate.
I cant help but question whether the whole thing is brainwashing, and that no one knows for sure if they are right. Its a difficult thing to think about, and everyone goes through these thoughts.
and if we are wrong we get hell.
somewhere it doesnt seem right.
S
shadowman
Guest
History Lesson--Did the Early Church Believe in Eternal Punishment?
@ 09:27 PM (16 months, 12 days ago)
Even though scripture says it clearly enough this is just too good not to copy here. Written by Andrew Jukes in 1867 this is a compilation of early church history. This is chapter 15 of his book The Restitution of all things.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Many people today think that the entire subject of the Restoration of All Things as spoken by the prophets is a new doctrine. However, the opposite is true, as a serious study of the sayings of the Historical Church Fathers reveals. If the concept of Restoration seems to be a modern idea, it's only because the understanding of this glorious plan of God is new to our modern minds. Restoration, in fact, is as old as Scripture and is a Truth once taught to and received by the saints of antiquity. The modern church has become blinded to the facts of Restoration as given in the Scriptures, but this is not a blindness shared by the early church. The present-day understanding of Restoration is simply a return to the original truths as given by revelation to the apostles and prophets of old. Gary Amirault [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Did the early Church believe in eternal punishment? You be the judge! [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](1) The Catacombs give us the views of the unlearned, as Clement and Origen state the doctrine of scholars and teachers. Not a syllable is found hinting at the horrors of Augustinianism, but the inscription on every monument harmonizes with the Universalism of the early fathers. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](2) Clement declares that all punishment, however severe, is for purification; that even the "torments of the damned" are curative. Origen explains even Gehenna as signifying limited and curative punishment, and both, as all the other ancient Universalists, declare that "everlasting" (aionion) punishment, is in agreement with universal salvation. So that it is no proof that other primitive Christians who are less explicit as to the final result, taught endless punishment when they employ the same terms. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](3) Like our Lord and His Apostles, the primitive Christians avoided the words with which the Pagans and Jews defined endless punishment aidios or adialeipton timoria (endless torment), a doctrine the latter believed, and knew how to describe; but the early Christians called punishment, as did our Lord, kolasis aionios, which means discipline or chastisement, of indefinite, limited duration. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](4) The first comparatively complete systematic statement of Christian doctrine ever given to the world was by Clement of Alexandria, A.D. 180, and universal salvation was one of the tenets. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](5) The first complete presentation of Christianity as a system was by Origen (A.D. 220) and universal salvation was explicitly contained in it. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](6) Universal salvation was the prevailing doctrine in Christendom as long as Greek, the language of the New Testament, was the language of Christendom. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](7) Universalism was generally believed in the first three centuries when Christians were most remarkable for simplicity, goodness, and missionary zeal. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](8) Not a writer among those who describe the heresies of the first three hundred years intimates that Universalism was then a heresy, though it was believed by many, if not be a majority, and certainly by the greatest of the fathers. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](9) Not a single creed for five hundred years expresses any idea contrary to universal restoration, or in favor of endless punishment. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](10) With the exception of the arguments of Augustine, there is not an argument known to have been framed against Universalism for at least four hundred years after Christ, by any of the ancient fathers. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](11) While the councils that assembled in various parts of Christendom, anathematized every kind of doctrine supposed to be heretical, no ecumenical council, for more than five hundred years, condemned Universalism, though it had been advocated in every century by the principal scholars and most revered saints. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](12) As late as A.D. 400, Jerome says "most people" (plerique). and Augustine "very many" (quam plurimi), believed in Universalism, notwithstanding that the tremendous influence of Augustine, and the mighty power of the semi-pagan secular arm were arrayed against it. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](13) The principal ancient Universalists were Christian born and reared, and were among the most scholarly and saintly of all the ancient saints. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](14) The most celebrated of the earlier advocates of endless punishment were heathen born, and led corrupt lives in their youth. Tertullian, one of the first, and Augustine, the greatest of them, confess to having been among the vilest. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](15) The first advocates of endless punishment, Minucius Felix, Tertullian and Augustine, were Latins, ignorant of Greek, and less competent to interpret the meaning of Greek Scriptures than were the Greek scholars. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](16) The first advocates of Universalism, after the Apostles, were Greeks, in whose mother-tongue the New Testament was written. They found their Universalism in the Greek Bible. Who should be correct, they or the Latins? [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](17) The Greek Fathers announced the great truth of universal restoration in an age of darkness, sin and corruption. There was nothing to suggest it to them in the world's literature or religion. It was wholly contrary to everything around them. Where else could they have found it, but where they say they did, in the Gospel? [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](18) From the days of Clement of Alexandria to those of Gregory of Nyssa and Theodore of Mopsuestia (A.D. 180-428), the great theologians and teachers, almost without exception, were Universalists.
No equal number in the same centuries were comparable to them for learning and goodness. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](19) The first theological school in Christendom, that in Alexandria, taught Universalism for more than two hundred years. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](20) In all Christendom, from A.D. 170 to 430, there were six Christian schools. Of these four, the only strictly theological schools, taught Universalism, and but one endless punishment. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](21) The three earliest Gnostic sects, the Basilidians, the Carpocratians and the Valentinians (A.D. 117-132) are condemned by Christian writers, and their heresies pointed out, but though they taught Universalism, that doctrine is never condemned by those who oppose them. Irenaeus condemned the errors of the Carpocratians, but does not reprehend their Universalism, though he ascribes the doctrine to them. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](22) The first defense of Christianity against Infidelity (Origen against Celsus) puts the defense on Universalistic grounds. Celsus charged the Christians' God with cruelty, because he punished with fire. Origen replied that God's fire is curative; that he is a "Consuming Fire," because he consumes sin and not the sinner. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](23) Justinian, a half-pagan emperor, who attempted to have Universalism officially condemned, lived in the most corrupt epoch of the Christian centuries. He closed the theological schools, and demanded the condemnation of Universalism by law; but the doctrine was so prevalent in the Church that the council refused to obey his edict to suppress it. Lecky says the age of Justinian was "the worst form civilization has assumed." [/FONT]
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@ 09:27 PM (16 months, 12 days ago)
Even though scripture says it clearly enough this is just too good not to copy here. Written by Andrew Jukes in 1867 this is a compilation of early church history. This is chapter 15 of his book The Restitution of all things.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Many people today think that the entire subject of the Restoration of All Things as spoken by the prophets is a new doctrine. However, the opposite is true, as a serious study of the sayings of the Historical Church Fathers reveals. If the concept of Restoration seems to be a modern idea, it's only because the understanding of this glorious plan of God is new to our modern minds. Restoration, in fact, is as old as Scripture and is a Truth once taught to and received by the saints of antiquity. The modern church has become blinded to the facts of Restoration as given in the Scriptures, but this is not a blindness shared by the early church. The present-day understanding of Restoration is simply a return to the original truths as given by revelation to the apostles and prophets of old. Gary Amirault [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Did the early Church believe in eternal punishment? You be the judge! [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](1) The Catacombs give us the views of the unlearned, as Clement and Origen state the doctrine of scholars and teachers. Not a syllable is found hinting at the horrors of Augustinianism, but the inscription on every monument harmonizes with the Universalism of the early fathers. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](2) Clement declares that all punishment, however severe, is for purification; that even the "torments of the damned" are curative. Origen explains even Gehenna as signifying limited and curative punishment, and both, as all the other ancient Universalists, declare that "everlasting" (aionion) punishment, is in agreement with universal salvation. So that it is no proof that other primitive Christians who are less explicit as to the final result, taught endless punishment when they employ the same terms. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](3) Like our Lord and His Apostles, the primitive Christians avoided the words with which the Pagans and Jews defined endless punishment aidios or adialeipton timoria (endless torment), a doctrine the latter believed, and knew how to describe; but the early Christians called punishment, as did our Lord, kolasis aionios, which means discipline or chastisement, of indefinite, limited duration. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](4) The first comparatively complete systematic statement of Christian doctrine ever given to the world was by Clement of Alexandria, A.D. 180, and universal salvation was one of the tenets. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](5) The first complete presentation of Christianity as a system was by Origen (A.D. 220) and universal salvation was explicitly contained in it. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](6) Universal salvation was the prevailing doctrine in Christendom as long as Greek, the language of the New Testament, was the language of Christendom. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](7) Universalism was generally believed in the first three centuries when Christians were most remarkable for simplicity, goodness, and missionary zeal. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](8) Not a writer among those who describe the heresies of the first three hundred years intimates that Universalism was then a heresy, though it was believed by many, if not be a majority, and certainly by the greatest of the fathers. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](9) Not a single creed for five hundred years expresses any idea contrary to universal restoration, or in favor of endless punishment. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](10) With the exception of the arguments of Augustine, there is not an argument known to have been framed against Universalism for at least four hundred years after Christ, by any of the ancient fathers. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](11) While the councils that assembled in various parts of Christendom, anathematized every kind of doctrine supposed to be heretical, no ecumenical council, for more than five hundred years, condemned Universalism, though it had been advocated in every century by the principal scholars and most revered saints. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](12) As late as A.D. 400, Jerome says "most people" (plerique). and Augustine "very many" (quam plurimi), believed in Universalism, notwithstanding that the tremendous influence of Augustine, and the mighty power of the semi-pagan secular arm were arrayed against it. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](13) The principal ancient Universalists were Christian born and reared, and were among the most scholarly and saintly of all the ancient saints. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](14) The most celebrated of the earlier advocates of endless punishment were heathen born, and led corrupt lives in their youth. Tertullian, one of the first, and Augustine, the greatest of them, confess to having been among the vilest. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](15) The first advocates of endless punishment, Minucius Felix, Tertullian and Augustine, were Latins, ignorant of Greek, and less competent to interpret the meaning of Greek Scriptures than were the Greek scholars. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](16) The first advocates of Universalism, after the Apostles, were Greeks, in whose mother-tongue the New Testament was written. They found their Universalism in the Greek Bible. Who should be correct, they or the Latins? [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](17) The Greek Fathers announced the great truth of universal restoration in an age of darkness, sin and corruption. There was nothing to suggest it to them in the world's literature or religion. It was wholly contrary to everything around them. Where else could they have found it, but where they say they did, in the Gospel? [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](18) From the days of Clement of Alexandria to those of Gregory of Nyssa and Theodore of Mopsuestia (A.D. 180-428), the great theologians and teachers, almost without exception, were Universalists.
No equal number in the same centuries were comparable to them for learning and goodness. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](19) The first theological school in Christendom, that in Alexandria, taught Universalism for more than two hundred years. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](20) In all Christendom, from A.D. 170 to 430, there were six Christian schools. Of these four, the only strictly theological schools, taught Universalism, and but one endless punishment. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](21) The three earliest Gnostic sects, the Basilidians, the Carpocratians and the Valentinians (A.D. 117-132) are condemned by Christian writers, and their heresies pointed out, but though they taught Universalism, that doctrine is never condemned by those who oppose them. Irenaeus condemned the errors of the Carpocratians, but does not reprehend their Universalism, though he ascribes the doctrine to them. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](22) The first defense of Christianity against Infidelity (Origen against Celsus) puts the defense on Universalistic grounds. Celsus charged the Christians' God with cruelty, because he punished with fire. Origen replied that God's fire is curative; that he is a "Consuming Fire," because he consumes sin and not the sinner. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](23) Justinian, a half-pagan emperor, who attempted to have Universalism officially condemned, lived in the most corrupt epoch of the Christian centuries. He closed the theological schools, and demanded the condemnation of Universalism by law; but the doctrine was so prevalent in the Church that the council refused to obey his edict to suppress it. Lecky says the age of Justinian was "the worst form civilization has assumed." [/FONT]
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S
shadowman
Guest
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](24) The first clear and definite statement of human destiny by any Christian writer after the days of the Apostles, includes universal restoration, and that doctrine was advocated by most of the greatest and best of the Christian Fathers for the first five hundred years of the Christian Era. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Quotes from Early Christian Leaders[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]St. Pantaenus (martyred c. 190) was the first known head of the catechetical school at Alexandria. Although none of his writings have survived, his leading disciple, who became the next head of the school, said that Pantaenus was "the man who understood and practised scripture." This disciple was St. Clement of Alexandria (150-215). He writes: We can set no limits to the agency of the Redeemer: to redeem, to rescue, to discipline, in his work, and so will he continue to operate after this life. All men are his...for either the Lord does not care for all men...or he does care for all. For He is Savior; not of some, and of others not...and how is He Savior and Lord, if not the Savior and Lord of all? For all things are arranged with a view to the salvation of the universe by the Lord of the universe both generally and particularly. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Listen to the words of Origen as he battles with a Greek philosopher named Celsus: The Stoics, indeed, hold that, when the strongest of the elements prevails, all things shall be turned into fire. But our belief is, that the Word shall prevail over the entire rational creation, and change every soul into his own perfection...for although in the diseases and wounds of the body, there are some which no medical skill can cure, yet we hold that in the mind there is no evil so strong that it may not be overcome by the Supreme Word and God. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The highly acclaimed Didymus writes: Mankind, being reclaimed from their sins...are to be subjected to Christ in the fullness of the dispensation instituted for the salvation of all. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]St. Gregory of Nyssa (332-398), a bishop and a leading theologian says in his Catechetical Orations: Our Lord is the One who delivers man (all men), and who heals the inventor of evil himself. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The great Latin Church Father, Jerome said, The nations are gathered to the Judgment, that on them may be poured out an the wrath of the fury of the Lord, and this in pity and with a design to heal.... in order that every one may return to the confession of the Lord, that in Jesus’ Name every knee may bow, and every tongue may confess that He is Lord. All God's enemies shall perish, not that they cease to exist, but cease to be enemies. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jerome says this next man, Titus, bishop of Bostra was, "one of the most important Church writers of his time." Titus writes: Abyss of hell is, indeed, the place of torment; but it is not eternal, nor did it exist in the original constitution of nature. It was made afterward, as a remedy for sinners, that it might cure them. And the punishments are holy, as they are remedial and salutary in their effect on transgressors; for they are inflicted not to preserve them in their wickedness but to make them cease from their wickedness. The anguish of their suffering compels them to break off their vices. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Next we have Diodore (c. 390), bishop of Tarsus and Jerusalem. In McClintock-Strong's Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, we read of Diodore: "A teacher of great repute in the school at Antioch, and afterwards bishop of Jerusalem, was also a Universalist, who, in opposition to the then general prevalence of allegorical interpretation, strictly adhered to the natural import of the text in his many commentaries on the Scriptures. He defended Universalism on the ground that the divine mercy far exceeds all the effects and all the deserts of sin." Diodore wrote: For the wicked are punished, not perpetual, but they are to be tormented for a certain brief period...according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness, having no end awaits them. The resurrection, therefore, is regarded as a blessing not only to the good but also to the evil. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Eusebius of Caesarea lived from 265 to 340 A.D. He was the Bishop of Caesarea in Palestine and a friend of Constantine, great Emperor of Rome. His commentary of Psalm II says: The Son 'breaking in pieces’ His enemies is for the sake of remolding them, as a potter his own work; as Jemniah 18;6 says: i.e., to restore them once again to their former state.
Ambrose, Bishop of Milan (340-397 A.D.), writes on Psalm I: Our Saviour has appointed two kinds of resurrection in the Apocalypse. ‘Blessed is he that hath part in the first resurrection,’ for such come to grace without the judgment. As for those who do not come to the first, but are reserved unto the second resurrection, these shall be disciplined until their appointed times, between the first and the second resurrection. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Theodoret the Blessed (c. 393-466) was consecrated bishop of Cyrrhus in Syria against his will. He was also a historian and continued the historian Eusibius' work down to 428. McClintock-Strong says that he was, "a pupil of Theodore of Mopsuestia, was also a Universalist holding the doctrine on the theory advocated by the Antiochian school." Theodoret writes: He shews the reason of penalty, for the Lord, who loves men, chastises in order to heal, like a physician, that he may arrest the course of our sin. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Peter Chrysologus (435), bishop of Ravenna, in a sermon on the Good Shepherd, says the lost sheep represents, The whole human race lost in Adam, and that Christ, followed the one, seeks the one in order that in the one he may restore all. Schaff-Herzog's Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge says that, "His influence for some centuries was more extensive than that of Augustine." Theodore, of whom the average modern Christian does not even know ever existed, has this to say: That in the world to come, those who have done evil all their life long, will be made worthy of the sweetness of the divine bounty. For never would Christ have said, 'Until thou has paid the uttermost farthing' unless it were possible for us to be cleansed when we have paid the debt. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Even Martin Luther said: God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“Many more early Christian leaders could be quoted who believed that nothing was too difficult for the Creator of all, but again, this is just an article, not a book. When one looks at the first 500 years of Christianity, not one creed even hinted at "Eternal Torment;" not one creed denied "Universal Restoration;" no Church council condemned "Universal Restoration" in the first several centuries. When one looks at the early Church leaders and at which ones exhibited the nature of Christ's love, one will find that the vast majority embraced the "Salvation of All Mankind." When one looks at the lives of those Church leaders who brought the doctrine of "Eternal Torment" into the Church, we find a long string of envyings, power plays, persecutions, character assassinations, book burnings, murders, and tortures. They became like the God they created--tormentors! Their story is for another article. They exchanged the truth for a lie and brought darkness to the world--the Dark Ages. Remember them? Idolatry, corruption, rewritten history, inquisitions, crusades, relics (cutting up dead bodies of Saints and making money off of them as good luck charms), indulgences (selling certificates to sin), pogroms, witch hunts, Mary worship, corrupt popes, and torment--much torment--all in the name of Jesus Christ.” Paragraph written by Gary Amirault. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Unfortunately in many ways, Protestantism is not much better than Roman Catholicism. We hold up men like Martin Luther and John Calvin almost as gods. It has been this reliance on the beliefs of fallible men and doctrinal statements that form most of our opinions today on what we consider “orthodox” teaching. We need to get back to studying the Word of God ourselves and stop trusting in what our leaders say. Men are fallible and systems aren’t perfect. But the Word of God is and we need to start seeking God for ourselves. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There is considerable evidence that the early Church up until the time of Augustine, as a whole, did not believe in eternal punishment. While any belief should be based on the Word of God alone, early Church history can lend credence (or cast doubt) on certain doctrines we hold to today. The closer in history we can get to the apostolic period, the higher the probability of that particular doctrine being the actual truth. While eternal punishment was believed by some early Christians, there is insufficient evidence to show that it was the predominant view of the Church. In fact, statements by Jerome, Augustine, and St. Basil show that the majority of believers actually believed in temporal punishment for unbelievers.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Quotes from Early Christian Leaders[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]St. Pantaenus (martyred c. 190) was the first known head of the catechetical school at Alexandria. Although none of his writings have survived, his leading disciple, who became the next head of the school, said that Pantaenus was "the man who understood and practised scripture." This disciple was St. Clement of Alexandria (150-215). He writes: We can set no limits to the agency of the Redeemer: to redeem, to rescue, to discipline, in his work, and so will he continue to operate after this life. All men are his...for either the Lord does not care for all men...or he does care for all. For He is Savior; not of some, and of others not...and how is He Savior and Lord, if not the Savior and Lord of all? For all things are arranged with a view to the salvation of the universe by the Lord of the universe both generally and particularly. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Listen to the words of Origen as he battles with a Greek philosopher named Celsus: The Stoics, indeed, hold that, when the strongest of the elements prevails, all things shall be turned into fire. But our belief is, that the Word shall prevail over the entire rational creation, and change every soul into his own perfection...for although in the diseases and wounds of the body, there are some which no medical skill can cure, yet we hold that in the mind there is no evil so strong that it may not be overcome by the Supreme Word and God. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The highly acclaimed Didymus writes: Mankind, being reclaimed from their sins...are to be subjected to Christ in the fullness of the dispensation instituted for the salvation of all. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]St. Gregory of Nyssa (332-398), a bishop and a leading theologian says in his Catechetical Orations: Our Lord is the One who delivers man (all men), and who heals the inventor of evil himself. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The great Latin Church Father, Jerome said, The nations are gathered to the Judgment, that on them may be poured out an the wrath of the fury of the Lord, and this in pity and with a design to heal.... in order that every one may return to the confession of the Lord, that in Jesus’ Name every knee may bow, and every tongue may confess that He is Lord. All God's enemies shall perish, not that they cease to exist, but cease to be enemies. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jerome says this next man, Titus, bishop of Bostra was, "one of the most important Church writers of his time." Titus writes: Abyss of hell is, indeed, the place of torment; but it is not eternal, nor did it exist in the original constitution of nature. It was made afterward, as a remedy for sinners, that it might cure them. And the punishments are holy, as they are remedial and salutary in their effect on transgressors; for they are inflicted not to preserve them in their wickedness but to make them cease from their wickedness. The anguish of their suffering compels them to break off their vices. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Next we have Diodore (c. 390), bishop of Tarsus and Jerusalem. In McClintock-Strong's Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, we read of Diodore: "A teacher of great repute in the school at Antioch, and afterwards bishop of Jerusalem, was also a Universalist, who, in opposition to the then general prevalence of allegorical interpretation, strictly adhered to the natural import of the text in his many commentaries on the Scriptures. He defended Universalism on the ground that the divine mercy far exceeds all the effects and all the deserts of sin." Diodore wrote: For the wicked are punished, not perpetual, but they are to be tormented for a certain brief period...according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness, having no end awaits them. The resurrection, therefore, is regarded as a blessing not only to the good but also to the evil. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Eusebius of Caesarea lived from 265 to 340 A.D. He was the Bishop of Caesarea in Palestine and a friend of Constantine, great Emperor of Rome. His commentary of Psalm II says: The Son 'breaking in pieces’ His enemies is for the sake of remolding them, as a potter his own work; as Jemniah 18;6 says: i.e., to restore them once again to their former state.
Ambrose, Bishop of Milan (340-397 A.D.), writes on Psalm I: Our Saviour has appointed two kinds of resurrection in the Apocalypse. ‘Blessed is he that hath part in the first resurrection,’ for such come to grace without the judgment. As for those who do not come to the first, but are reserved unto the second resurrection, these shall be disciplined until their appointed times, between the first and the second resurrection. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Theodoret the Blessed (c. 393-466) was consecrated bishop of Cyrrhus in Syria against his will. He was also a historian and continued the historian Eusibius' work down to 428. McClintock-Strong says that he was, "a pupil of Theodore of Mopsuestia, was also a Universalist holding the doctrine on the theory advocated by the Antiochian school." Theodoret writes: He shews the reason of penalty, for the Lord, who loves men, chastises in order to heal, like a physician, that he may arrest the course of our sin. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Peter Chrysologus (435), bishop of Ravenna, in a sermon on the Good Shepherd, says the lost sheep represents, The whole human race lost in Adam, and that Christ, followed the one, seeks the one in order that in the one he may restore all. Schaff-Herzog's Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge says that, "His influence for some centuries was more extensive than that of Augustine." Theodore, of whom the average modern Christian does not even know ever existed, has this to say: That in the world to come, those who have done evil all their life long, will be made worthy of the sweetness of the divine bounty. For never would Christ have said, 'Until thou has paid the uttermost farthing' unless it were possible for us to be cleansed when we have paid the debt. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Even Martin Luther said: God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“Many more early Christian leaders could be quoted who believed that nothing was too difficult for the Creator of all, but again, this is just an article, not a book. When one looks at the first 500 years of Christianity, not one creed even hinted at "Eternal Torment;" not one creed denied "Universal Restoration;" no Church council condemned "Universal Restoration" in the first several centuries. When one looks at the early Church leaders and at which ones exhibited the nature of Christ's love, one will find that the vast majority embraced the "Salvation of All Mankind." When one looks at the lives of those Church leaders who brought the doctrine of "Eternal Torment" into the Church, we find a long string of envyings, power plays, persecutions, character assassinations, book burnings, murders, and tortures. They became like the God they created--tormentors! Their story is for another article. They exchanged the truth for a lie and brought darkness to the world--the Dark Ages. Remember them? Idolatry, corruption, rewritten history, inquisitions, crusades, relics (cutting up dead bodies of Saints and making money off of them as good luck charms), indulgences (selling certificates to sin), pogroms, witch hunts, Mary worship, corrupt popes, and torment--much torment--all in the name of Jesus Christ.” Paragraph written by Gary Amirault. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Unfortunately in many ways, Protestantism is not much better than Roman Catholicism. We hold up men like Martin Luther and John Calvin almost as gods. It has been this reliance on the beliefs of fallible men and doctrinal statements that form most of our opinions today on what we consider “orthodox” teaching. We need to get back to studying the Word of God ourselves and stop trusting in what our leaders say. Men are fallible and systems aren’t perfect. But the Word of God is and we need to start seeking God for ourselves. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There is considerable evidence that the early Church up until the time of Augustine, as a whole, did not believe in eternal punishment. While any belief should be based on the Word of God alone, early Church history can lend credence (or cast doubt) on certain doctrines we hold to today. The closer in history we can get to the apostolic period, the higher the probability of that particular doctrine being the actual truth. While eternal punishment was believed by some early Christians, there is insufficient evidence to show that it was the predominant view of the Church. In fact, statements by Jerome, Augustine, and St. Basil show that the majority of believers actually believed in temporal punishment for unbelievers.[/FONT]
S
shadowman
Guest
Savior of the World Series
if youve been left behind, look towards the future!
if you've been lleft behind, open your eyes and see!
-wck the dominican bouyon kings! from the song so hi so lo
wisdom everywhere!
if youve been left behind, look towards the future!
if you've been lleft behind, open your eyes and see!
-wck the dominican bouyon kings! from the song so hi so lo
wisdom everywhere!
So far, for myself, I still believe that one is constantly in the position of accepting or rejecting the gift. I am able to accept the "isness" of everything except my salvation.
This, I believe, is the principle difference between our "faiths" - "Self embraced by Other" versus "no self, no other".
Whereas my religious convictions reflect the first idea, my spiritual ideas are closer to the second.
I hold the yellow flower.
Thanks, Derek!
Best regards,
Mark
Mark,
Perhaps the existential reality is best summed up in the words of Thomas Merton.......................for we are already what we need to be.........all is grace.......a grace that nevertheless can never be finally claimed, but needs to be realised afresh in each moment.
To move away from empathy with others, to cast aside the search for a present reconciliation and move instead towards judgement and division...........This is a day to day reality, at least for me. Yet it is in seeing this and acknowledging it that sets the true light into greater relief. Just an on-going deepening of the full recognition of the True Compassion and therefore the ever deeper response of gratitude, hopefully expressed in life as it is lived and experienced each day.
"Self embraced by Other".....................Just as non-dualism is not the opposite of dualism but embraces the opposites, Other Power is not the opposite of self-power, but embraces the self and its experienced sense of "other". No self no other.......well, there is certainly talk in the Pure Land tradition that concerns the eventual unity of the redeemed with the redeemer, part of the "realized eschatology" of Buddhism - realized within the present life, not projected onto an imagined future.
Anyway, perhaps enough! (Talk of non-dualism always does my head in.............!!) Just one to finish, a quote from the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart.........
They do him wrong who take God in just one particular way. They have the way rather than God
P.S And many thanks to Shadowman. Very interesting posts.
Again, Derek/Tariki, I thank you for sharing the Pure Land teachings as they have deepened my understanding of matters such as grace and surrender. I am inclined to believe that any Divine name which engenders one to fully surrender the limitations of self has salvific power, as it is in the opening up of one's being that we reach deeper into our Source. I'd shared a piece by former zen monk turned Pure Lander, Clark Strand, re the power of surrender on another thread. I'll share another short piece of his which illuminates this proposition I made as well:
YogaJournal.Com: The Way of the Name
take care all, earl
YogaJournal.Com: The Way of the Name
take care all, earl
Earl,
Thanks for the link. Seemed to speak for myself in many ways. Though I have heard that the ultimate task is to jump from the top of a hundred foot pole without a safety net, personally I need to know a couple of arms are there.......
And given the unique circumstances of each, some arms just seem easier to trust than others. My own weak mind - easily led by minds stronger in "conviction" and apparently immune to any form of doubt concerning any belief of their own - carries far too much negative baggage as far as the Christian "arms" are concerned. And though I do go a little overboard concerning the aspect of "gift", the reality is that our path will always involve both gift and task..........though perhaps the only task is to open and see/acknowledge the sometimes terrible depths within us, the capacity for "evil" and judgement of others. It does seem to be that Mercy only allows us to see such depths in the light of infinite compassion - to have it revealed in any other way would perhaps destroy rather than "save". With such seeing, the "task" as path seems to sort itself out, the road to joy which is mysteriously revealed to us without our exactly realizing - or as we Pure Landers have it, the way of "non-calculation", where "no-working is true working". We begin to see other human beings, each with their own faults, in the same light that has embraced ourselves..........and as I never cease from quoting..............mutual foregiveness of each vice opens the gates of paradise
Well, hope all is well.
Derek