Is Christianity a Negative Religion?

[lunamoth]

I do not believe that it is was part of Christ's original message that anyone who did fall into the lockstep march of churchianity - would meet with eternal punishment and damnation.

I don't believe it was part of His message either, in fact I think He taught just the opposite. Doing anything in lockstep (by law or decree alone) hinders the work of the Holy Spirit, IMO. However, I dont think that walking in lockstep is what all Christians do, or even what all denominations try to do. Can't argue with the fact, though, that this is how it is percieved and experienced by some.

This is no more than fear tactics.

When it happens like this...yes. The basis of fear is in judgement, I think.

 

[InLove]

Thank you to all who have replied so far.

To narrow the question a bit, is it your impression that Christian theology has a negative view of humanity (i.e., we are sinners in need of salvation) or positive view of humanity (i.e., we were created in God's image).

My view encompasses both. The way I see it, we have lost the purity of thought which exists in the mind of God. The opportunity to recapture this is within our reach, but in order to receive this back, we first have to realize or accept that we've lost it. Whether one reads the Bible in a completely literal fashion or a symbolic one, or a combination of these, the message, to me is the same.

If we observe just about any situation in earnest, we find both negative and positive elements. It is the way nature works. It is the way business works. It is how philosophy speaks. I could go on and on....I mean, we can harness electricity, but if we try to do it without both positive and negative charges, what do we have?

Truth is evident all around us. Even though we relate to it in differing and personal ways, it is still Truth. The Bible tells us--and this is one of those places that makes total sense to me--that if everything Jesus did while he was here were to be written down, there would not be enough room in the world to hold it all. That tells me that we (both Christians and non-Christians) place way too many limits on our Sacred Texts and this historical and timeless figure. We just don't yet have that purity of thought, but it is up to us to take the steps we need to take toward this end.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[lunamoth]

If we observe just about any situation in earnest, we find both negative and positive elements. It is the way nature works. It is the way business works. It is how philosophy speaks. I could go on and on....I mean, we can harness electricity, but if we try to do it without both positive and negative charges, what do we have?
InLove

Good points InLove...a number of people have so far hit upon this idea that there is both good and bad, positive and negative elements (ying and yang?) to Christianity and most everything else. And as others have said, I suppose it comes down to what we tend to emphasize, or have had emphasized upon us.

Movement depends upon disequilibrium and experience depends upon choice and diversity. One of the weaknesses of some flavors of liberal or strictly humanist Christianity is that there is no accounting for evil or the problems that we see in this world. No fall? What do you mean no fall...look around...does this seem like all is paradise? There was a lot of optimism in the very early 20th century with respect to what humans and technology could accomplish, and liberal Christianity had a heyday. Then the wars came and people were left feeling...if this is where human efforts get us how are we ever to be saved? Then there was a swing back toward orthodoxy as a result.

Meh, I'm just kind of rambling here (sorry). Guess what I'm saying is that we live in the tension between where we are and an ideal of what we could be, so we swing back and forth with optimism and pessimism as the prevailing attitude. Right now it seems that pessimism has the upper hand.

 

[LeoSalinas22]

hey, nick the pilot, have you ever considered how badly we have screwed up against God? read this scripture:

Jeremiah 3 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD. Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed. we as mankind are the unfaithful wife who has left her Husband to commit whoredoms with other lovers, being the world. we as mankind refuse to feel ashamed of ourselves. God keeps asking for us to come back to Him, to feel shame for how we have strayed off the path He has set for us. we have commited so many abominations in His eyes that isn't even funny. He has every right to forgive us for our transgressions because He did mold us out of clay? did He not? yet, we can't forgive one another at all because we would rather let "karma" take care of them. as surely as the Lord lives, vengeance belongs to Him and Him alone, not "karma"! i will have you know that i don't want Him taking vengeance on me, so i will repent and feel shame. i pray to God that you do the same.

 

[lunamoth]

hey, nick the pilot, have you ever considered how badly we have screwed up against God? read this scripture:

Jeremiah 3 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD. Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed. we as mankind are the unfaithful wife who has left her Husband to commit whoredoms with other lovers, being the world. we as mankind refuse to feel ashamed of ourselves. God keeps asking for us to come back to Him, to feel shame for how we have strayed off the path He has set for us. we have commited so many abominations in His eyes that isn't even funny. He has every right to forgive us for our transgressions because He did mold us out of clay? did He not? yet, we can't forgive one another at all because we would rather let "karma" take care of them. as surely as the Lord lives, vengeance belongs to Him and Him alone, not "karma"! i will have you know that i don't want Him taking vengeance on me, so i will repent and feel shame. i pray to God that you do the same.

Actually Leo, from what Nick has shared we can see that karma is a harsher 'judge' than God as absolutely no one gets off the hook.

Also, I'd hoped we could keep the preaching out of this one thread. Makes it kind of unwelcoming and non-conducive to dialogue.

 

[LeoSalinas22]

Actually Leo, from what Nick has shared we can see that karma is a harsher 'judge' than God as absolutely no one gets off the hook.

Also, I'd hoped we could keep the preaching out of this one thread. Makes it kind of unwelcoming and non-conducive to dialogue.

 

[InLove]

Good points InLove...a number of people have so far hit upon this idea that there is both good and bad, positive and negative elements (ying and yang?) to Christianity and most everything else. And as others have said, I suppose it comes down to what we tend to emphasize, or have had emphasized upon us.

Movement depends upon disequilibrium and experience depends upon choice and diversity. One of the weaknesses of some flavors of liberal or strictly humanist Christianity is that there is no accounting for evil or the problems that we see in this world. No fall? What do you mean no fall...look around...does this seem like all is paradise? There was a lot of optimism in the very early 20th century with respect to what humans and technology could accomplish, and liberal Christianity had a heyday. Then the wars came and people were left feeling...if this is where human efforts get us how are we ever to be saved? Then there was a swing back toward orthodoxy as a result.

Meh, I'm just kind of rambling here (sorry). Guess what I'm saying is that we live in the tension between where we are and an ideal of what we could be, so we swing back and forth with optimism and pessimism as the prevailing attitude. Right now it seems that pessimism has the upper hand.

I honestly think that humans are so often afraid of anything that sounds too positive. Especially if it is something that goes against our experience. And we are all witness to so much negative experience in this world that when someone comes along and accentuates the positive, we tend to think that it can't possibly be. It just seems too "fluffy" or something, I guess. That this Great Spirit of Creation could also be One of such a Love that it could bring us out of our incompleteness and make us whole and show us each other and bring us together within that very Wisdom. So we remain broken. But I believe with all my heart that we can be fixed. Not just some, but all. And if I am wrong, then I suppose it doesn't matter, anyway.

There have been some really interesting thoughts posted on this thread. I find much to affirm. But I strongly believe that we have got to stop knocking one another over the head with doctrines that suppose the superiority of one group of folks over another. The problem seems to be that every time humanity begins to recognize this, we can't seem to help ourselves--we just make more doctrine, and then say it isn't from us. I don't know how we are going to get past that unless we allow one another the same freedoms we say our Teachers came to show us.

Now you have got me rambling, too, luna! Guess we are just a couple of rambling roses...or scrub vines...or morning glories...or any number of things, lol. We'll get there, growing toward the garden.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Luna,

You said,

"I find it surprising to see forgivness considered undesirable."

--> That is the value of inter-faith dialogue. We are slowly learning what the other person is thinking.

"To narrow the question a bit, is it your impression that Christian theology has a negative view of humanity (i.e., we are sinners in need of salvation) or positive view of humanity (i.e., we were created in God's image)."

--> I am afraid I go with the negative view. As a matter of fact, I must confess that my colleagues and I have characterized Christianity as a religion based mainly on fear.

As a matter of fact, I do a lot of work helping ex-Christians get rid of their fear. Once they get rid of their fear, things go a lot better.

Theosophy teaches many of the same ideas as Christianity, but without the fear and the negativity. This is what I like about Theosophy.

I would like to take a moment, and emphasize what we have in common. You said,

"What do you mean no fall...look around...does this seem like all is paradise?"

--> On this point, Theosophy agrees with you. This is an ugly world, full of suffering. The Garden we left was much better. (You and I just disagree on why we left the Garden.)

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Luna,

Zeras said,

"... everyone is a sinner even a new born??"

--> This takes us into an entirely different criticism of Christianity. Is this something you also want to explore?

 

[Nick the Pilot]

"...anyone that doesn't believe in Jesus as their saviour is headed to hell."

--> This is another idea that goes on the list.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Andrew,

Gandhi's quote,

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

is very profound.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Pathless,

"God: Every time I try to talk to someone it's sorry this and forgive me that and I'm not worthy..."

--> That is very profound.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

InLove,

You said,

"That this Great Spirit of Creation could also be One of such a Love...."

You have described by belief system perfectly.

"The way I see it, we have lost the purity of thought which exists in the mind of God."

--> In essence, I agree with your idea. However, I would say we are learning to appreciate such purity of thought. I see learning to appreciate such purity of thought as a positive experience.

 

[lunamoth]

Luna,

You said,

"I find it surprising to see forgivness considered undesirable."

--> That is the value of inter-faith dialogue. We are slowly learning what the other person is thinking.

I agree.

As a matter of fact, I must confess that my colleagues and I have characterized Christianity as a religion based mainly on fear.

As a matter of fact, I do a lot of work helping ex-Christians get rid of their fear. Once they get rid of their fear, things go a lot better.

It strikes me that way too, that there is a lot of misuse of fear in some branches of Christianity, but in defense I also would like to point out that it is not so for all Christians. Along with the message "Repent for the Kingdom of God is near" Jesus taught love and 'fear not!' I love 1 John 4:

7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for[c] our sins. 11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

13We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. 16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

19We love because he first loved us. 20If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.

Theosophy teaches many of the same ideas as Christianity, but without the fear and the negativity. This is what I like about Theosophy.

That is commendable.

I would like to take a moment, and emphasize what we have in common. You said,

"What do you mean no fall...look around...does this seem like all is paradise?"

--> On this point, Theosophy agrees with you. This is an ugly world, full of suffering. The Garden we left was much better. (You and I just disagree on why we left the Garden.)

But the world is beautiful too. Somehow we must strike the balance between loving the world now but also not settling for things as they are. We must also love it as it is meant to be, peaceful and safe for all. The Kingdom of God is within us and it is now, and not yet.

 

[lunamoth]

Luna,

Zeras said,

"... everyone is a sinner even a new born??"

--> This takes us into an entirely different criticism of Christianity. Is this something you also want to explore?

I don't believe anyone is born with sin but all humans just by being human are born with the tendency toward, the potential for, sin. And we start to sin just as soon as we start to judge and we have to judge to adapt to our world and sruvive. So, it's a catch-22 and it is the character of a 'fallen' world. Please realize that I am using the terms Garden and 'fallen world' metaphorically. I don't think there ever was an actual Garden of Eden nor a single first human Adam. To me Adam represents our evolution into self-knowledge. Where there is morality and law there is sin (missing the mark, falling short). FWIW, I don't think Christians are under any law but the command to love one another, and we have quite enough on our hands trying to live up to that one. Also FWIW, I view hell as our separation from God, heaven as being close to/in harmony with God. And God is Love.

A baby is born human and with very selfish needs that it has to express for survival. As it grows it (hopefully) learns trust (faith) and love (give and forgive). If a baby is neglected (its needs not met, not loved) it may not learn trust and love, but instead its natural selfishness (required for survival) will become his or her dominant way of interacting with the world. Thus, we really are born as 'sinners,' and it is love that saves us from this fate.

 

[lunamoth]

Luna,

Zeras said,

"... everyone is a sinner even a new born??"

--> This takes us into an entirely different criticism of Christianity. Is this something you also want to explore?

This reminds me of a question I have. In Theosophy is every person born with a karmic debt left over from a previous life?

 

[Caimanson]

I don't think christianity is negative or positive, it is.
It becomes something else as soon as anyone interprets it and lives it, with good bits and bad bits.
I think it is more a reflection of the bearer than the faith in itself, and I think it is the same for all other beliefs imo.

The way my mind works is that I am an unrepentant literalist, either the whole thing is true or else I reject it.
I could pick and choose from the bible, but that is too much hard work, and since I now don't believe the myth or some of the supposed facts it just doesn't work for me anymore.
I am only left with my belief in god, and that is a very personal one.

My experience is of the fundamentalist type.
For example, in my old church they preached the unconditional forgiveness of god, but as soon as you become "saved" the tune changes dramatically, and then it is more about the law and works. Too much manipulation, but that is a human thing. But I must also say that not everything was about using you, they also loved and cared.

Nick, you mentioned that forgiveness is no responsibility.
The way it was taught to me was that god may wipe away the sin, but you still have to live with the consequences of sin.
True repentance is changing your ways, good deeds, love your neighbour, etc. Some people abuse forgiveness but that is their problem.
For example, if you abuse your family god may forgive you, but you and your family still have to live with the consequences of your actions.
So you are still under pressure to make ammends if you want to change your situation.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Luna,

You said,

"I don't believe anyone is born with sin...."

--> Isn't this a fundamental Christian teaching?

"In Theosophy is every person born with a karmic debt left over from a previous life?"

--> Yes they are, although they do not carry the brunt of the entire load in that lifetime.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Caimanson,

You said,

"...either the whole thing is true or else I reject it."

--> Theosophy takes a different approach. We say the Bible has been re-written, and wrongly translated into English. The actual story is in there somewhere. It is our job to find that true story. (And, getting to the true story, after being denied it for years, is fun!)

"The way it was taught to me was that god may wipe away the sin, but you still have to live with the consequences of sin."

--> That, by definition, is not forgiveness. Either all repercussions are wiped out, or they are not. (I have definitely noticed a shift in Christian belief of forgiveness/karma over the years. Even my fundamentalist Christian dentist told me he believes in karma. I thought to myself, "We are making progress!")

"For example, if you abuse your family god may forgive you, but you and your family still have to live with the consequences of your actions."

--> This is an interesting mix of forgiveness and responsibility. It also begs the question: what about people who do bad things and get off scott free? The example that keeps coming back to me is the mall-shooters and school-shooters who kill, then turn their gun on themselves, and kill themselves. If, at that last second they repent, they are off "scott-free", and they do not have live with the consequences of their killings either, as you suggest. (Fortunately for me, my belief system teaches quite a different end to the story.)

One of the problems I have with Chrisitianity is that I always come up with examples that just do not work. Sorry, I have decided to go with a system that handles every example I can throw at it.

 

[lunamoth]

Luna,

You said,

"I don't believe anyone is born with sin...."

--> Isn't this a fundamental Christian teaching?

The idea of Original Sin started in the Western Chruch with St. Augustine. It was never recognized by the Eastern Orthodox Church, and I think that now it is even debated in Roman Catholocism. I have never heard it preached in the Episcopal Church although it is one of the 39 Articles of the Anglican Communion. In the AC article (note this is a historical document and not a confession of faith), the definition of 'Birth-Sin' is not inherited guilt but a 'fault of nature' of every man (in my words, a propensity toward sin, which is as I have described a few posts ago).

I find the concept of Original Sin absolutely useless when it is used to say that we inherit sin and have it when we are born, although that does seem to be similar to what Theosophy believes. I find though that it does describe the predicament of humans, that we have a hard time doing what we know to be right.