The Buddha was not a Buddhist, Jesus was not a Christian......
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Vajradhara
One of Many
Namaste tariki,
thank you for the post.
there are several things that are being communicated with such a statement. AG has already stated one view of this that i would agree with.
other things that are touched upon are things like time sequences... naturally, things were only Buddhist and Christian after the arise of said individuals. more to the point, the founders didn't codify the various rules and conventions that are found with the traditions that purport to adhere to the founders tradition.
of course... there is also the bit that penetrates dogma and doctrine and makes us wonder what is classifiying got to do with anything...
thank you for the post.
there are several things that are being communicated with such a statement. AG has already stated one view of this that i would agree with.
other things that are touched upon are things like time sequences... naturally, things were only Buddhist and Christian after the arise of said individuals. more to the point, the founders didn't codify the various rules and conventions that are found with the traditions that purport to adhere to the founders tradition.
of course... there is also the bit that penetrates dogma and doctrine and makes us wonder what is classifiying got to do with anything...
Susma Rio Sep
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Founders horrified!
I think it is more to the fact that it means if Buddha were alive today and Jesus, they would be horrified with Buddhists and Christians; and the latter would certainly murder them or have them certified insane and consigned to a pyscholpathic asylum.
At least that is what I mean if I were to say that line above.
Susma Rio Sep
Tariki said:
I think it is more to the fact that it means if Buddha were alive today and Jesus, they would be horrified with Buddhists and Christians; and the latter would certainly murder them or have them certified insane and consigned to a pyscholpathic asylum.
At least that is what I mean if I were to say that line above.
Susma Rio Sep
Vajradhara
One of Many
Susma Rio Sep said:
Namaste Susma,
you write some awfully strange things... this is one of them.
are you actually trying to assert that the historical Buddha, Guatama, were he alive today, would have the people that consider themselves Buddhists murdered?!?!?!
and if not murdered then comitted against their will to a psych hospital?
bananabrain
awkward squadnik
don't know about buddha, but as far as i'm concerned jesus was jewish - a heretic and false messiah, perhaps, but most of what is attributed to him (the sermon on the mount, for example) is not at all incompatible with traditional judaism. the early christians were simply the equivalent of the people that nowadays call themselves "messianic jews" - it is the act of a) accepting a false messiah and b) dropping the binding nature of jewish law that eventually put them outside judaism. however, i think this is somewhat beside the point that you're trying to raise here.
b'shalom
bananabrain
b'shalom
bananabrain
Anzac
Resident Anarchist
Religious leaders never know what they will create because it is only created after their deaths when people can appreciate what they've missed (this isn't to say that it was/wasn't a messiah figure, but an inspirational influence at least which has put a hand on history). They can teach and teach and teach, try and make people to understand but inevitably, humanity and so-called "free will" kick in and people alter things. After all, history is written by those who crushed everyone else and they can write what they want. Religion is a major part of the world and as such takes a prevailant role in it's functioning. If it were to drop out of functioning then I'm sure future historians would write a very different picture of the way things happen.
To me this is the epitome of "human error" as such, meaning that we can change and interpret things in our own way. Did Jesus want everyone to convert to Judaism and was Christianity just another cult of the era? No one will be able to answer the question with 100% certainty ever, which always allows for human alterations to religious belief.
To me this is the epitome of "human error" as such, meaning that we can change and interpret things in our own way. Did Jesus want everyone to convert to Judaism and was Christianity just another cult of the era? No one will be able to answer the question with 100% certainty ever, which always allows for human alterations to religious belief.
Thanks for the responses..........my reason for asking the question was that it was one of those things that I intuitively understand but always seem unable to truly articulate. The truth of anything always seems other than any formal expression.
In the Blue Cliff Record Yun Men is asked "What are the teachings of a whole lifetime?" and answers "An appropriate statement"...........which seems to point to the spontenaity of "truth", that "truth" is living and responding within each moment to reality as immediately comprehended/understood, with compassion and wisdom. Being a "Buddhist" or a "Christian" often seems the opposite of this, living by rote, by appeal to texts/creeds/tradition......missing the moment by appeal to the past.
Yet surely on the way to realisation texts/creeds/tradition have there place, and there is a need for them in some sense?
It seems to me that the Buddha lived a life of genuine search, and genuine finding...........and then compassionate teaching, striving to bring others to the same realization as himself. The "signposts" that guided him were not explicitly "buddhist" ones - obviously - yet they ARE now signposts we must follow. The trailblazer and the followers!
In relation to all this, there is an essay by Lama Anagarika Govinda in which he says......concerning various transformations within each religious tradition......
"....after such a process of transformation there are always people and groups who cling to the old...........who live in the consciousness of a past age, which they idealize in order to escape from the present.......out of a wish to live according to comfortable old patterns of behaviour."
Comfortable old patterns!
(Just another point........I did think after posting the original thread that I should have just mentioned the Buddha.......it does seem to me that the question as raised would have/does have different perspectives from a Christian position?)
Thanks
Derek
In the Blue Cliff Record Yun Men is asked "What are the teachings of a whole lifetime?" and answers "An appropriate statement"...........which seems to point to the spontenaity of "truth", that "truth" is living and responding within each moment to reality as immediately comprehended/understood, with compassion and wisdom. Being a "Buddhist" or a "Christian" often seems the opposite of this, living by rote, by appeal to texts/creeds/tradition......missing the moment by appeal to the past.
Yet surely on the way to realisation texts/creeds/tradition have there place, and there is a need for them in some sense?
It seems to me that the Buddha lived a life of genuine search, and genuine finding...........and then compassionate teaching, striving to bring others to the same realization as himself. The "signposts" that guided him were not explicitly "buddhist" ones - obviously - yet they ARE now signposts we must follow. The trailblazer and the followers!
In relation to all this, there is an essay by Lama Anagarika Govinda in which he says......concerning various transformations within each religious tradition......
"....after such a process of transformation there are always people and groups who cling to the old...........who live in the consciousness of a past age, which they idealize in order to escape from the present.......out of a wish to live according to comfortable old patterns of behaviour."
Comfortable old patterns!
(Just another point........I did think after posting the original thread that I should have just mentioned the Buddha.......it does seem to me that the question as raised would have/does have different perspectives from a Christian position?)
Thanks
Derek
zenmonk_genryu
Active Member
Buddhists don't follow the Buddha. They seek what he sought, which is somewhat different, and use what works to do that.
A
Avinash
Guest
Tariki said:
To me what is said here is that Gautama Buddha as well as Jesus did not found any religion. They may both have been reformers of the paths they witnessed in their surroundings, but they never sought to start a religion as an exclusive ideology that was "the only way to salvation".
First of all Buddha spoke of Dharma and not of religion. He started a new sangha (path) because he felt that that would be the best way for a person to follow their human dharma. His greatness lies in that he banished dogma, useless ritualism and superstition as well as the abuse of power by self-serving priests from his path.
Jesus did pretty much the same but his mission was cut short, so his ideology was kidnapped by other forces that eventually twisted and moulded it into a fully fledged religion that bears less resemblance to the original mission than Buddhism does.
Mus Zibii
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Regardless of whether either figure would be happy with the doctrines followed in their name, they existed as finite figures, and as great as they are/were/might've been they in themselves were not the sum of the religions that came after them.
inhumility
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Re: Founders horrified!
Originally Posted by Tariki
It has often been said that the Buddha was not a Buddhist.............that Jesus was not a Christian.
We find two such examples given by God in Quran; the most secured and protected religious Revealed Book. One is of the Muslims and the other one is of the Christians, the dialogue at the Day of Judgments.
Muslims:The Holy Quran: Chapter 25: Al-Furqan [25:28] On that day the wrongdoer will bite his hands and will say, 'O, would that I had taken a way along with the Messenger! [25:29] 'O, woe is me! would that I had never taken such a one for a friend! [25:30] 'He led me astray from the Reminder after it had come to me.' And Satan always deserts man in the hour of need [25:31] And the Messenger will say, 'O my Lord, my people indeed treated this Qur'an as a thing to be discarded.' [25:32] Thus did We make for every Prophet an enemy from among the sinners; And sufficient is thy Lord as a Guide and a Helper.
Christians: The Holy Quran : Chapter 5: Al-Ma'idah
[5:117] And when Allah will say, 'O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?' he will answer, 'Holy art THOU, I could never say that which I had no right. If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. It is Thou alone Who art the Knower of all hidden things; [5:118] 'I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me - Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou, hast been the Watcher over them, and Thou art Witness over all things; [5:119] 'If Thou punish them, they are Thy servants; and if Thou forgive them, Thou surely art the Mighty, the Wise. ' [5:120] Allah will say, 'This is a day when only the truthful shall profit by their truthfulness. For them are Gardens beneath which streams flow; therein shall they abide forever. Allah is well pleased with them, and they are well pleased with Him; that indeed is the supreme achievement.'
Jews:
Moses went to the mountain, and in his absence, the Jews made a golden calf to worship, though Moses had been preaching them to worship One God, and he had given very explicit instructions in this regard. If they, the Jews, could get spoiled so much in just forty days, one could guess what could have happened in these three thousand years. Moses was so much angry at this that he got three thousand Jews killed for that as per Bible.
Similar for others
Say Buddhists, they have a tradition for coming of a Maitreya, a long prophecy consisting of 1298 words made by Buddha Shakyamuni, yet they don’t believe him as a prophet of God. Who is a prophet; one who makes a prophecy, there is no other good source than God, so it automatic, logically, proves that Buddha Shakyamuni believed in God, he received revelation from God so he made a prophecy, he was a prophet of God, yet he Buddhist don’t believe that he was a theist. So if Buddha comes to this world, will he recognize the Buddhists as his followers?
We all have to accept the realities and facts, whatever the priesthood may say. And believe and worship one God, believe in all the prophets, all the Revealed Books, angels and the Day of Judgment. God and His prophets are not racial, nor they know favoritism, they recognize follower believers from the teachings they have acted upon and the moral and attributes they possess.
That is my belief, others could believe what they think is the truth, no compulsion.
Thanks
Originally Posted by Tariki
It has often been said that the Buddha was not a Buddhist.............that Jesus was not a Christian.
Well that is true in a way. The prophets put forward realities revealed to them by God, and the followers, must accept the realities whenever these come their way, but the followers instead of accepting those realities followed the priesthood. God is not bound of what the priesthood thinks God will support the realities and facts. The followers have to reconcile with God, the creator, and not the other way round. If Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Moses, Muhammad would have happened to come to this world (which is religiously not possible in physical terms) they would have failed to recognize their followers due to their deviations from their original teachings , rather horrified as to what they are doing in their name. Similarly if their followers die and are presented before God, and their prophets are called as a witness on their faiths, the prophets would refuse to recognize them as their followers.Susma Rio Sep said:
We find two such examples given by God in Quran; the most secured and protected religious Revealed Book. One is of the Muslims and the other one is of the Christians, the dialogue at the Day of Judgments.
Muslims:The Holy Quran: Chapter 25: Al-Furqan [25:28] On that day the wrongdoer will bite his hands and will say, 'O, would that I had taken a way along with the Messenger! [25:29] 'O, woe is me! would that I had never taken such a one for a friend! [25:30] 'He led me astray from the Reminder after it had come to me.' And Satan always deserts man in the hour of need [25:31] And the Messenger will say, 'O my Lord, my people indeed treated this Qur'an as a thing to be discarded.' [25:32] Thus did We make for every Prophet an enemy from among the sinners; And sufficient is thy Lord as a Guide and a Helper.
Christians: The Holy Quran : Chapter 5: Al-Ma'idah
[5:117] And when Allah will say, 'O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?' he will answer, 'Holy art THOU, I could never say that which I had no right. If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. It is Thou alone Who art the Knower of all hidden things; [5:118] 'I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me - Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou, hast been the Watcher over them, and Thou art Witness over all things; [5:119] 'If Thou punish them, they are Thy servants; and if Thou forgive them, Thou surely art the Mighty, the Wise. ' [5:120] Allah will say, 'This is a day when only the truthful shall profit by their truthfulness. For them are Gardens beneath which streams flow; therein shall they abide forever. Allah is well pleased with them, and they are well pleased with Him; that indeed is the supreme achievement.'
Jews:
Moses went to the mountain, and in his absence, the Jews made a golden calf to worship, though Moses had been preaching them to worship One God, and he had given very explicit instructions in this regard. If they, the Jews, could get spoiled so much in just forty days, one could guess what could have happened in these three thousand years. Moses was so much angry at this that he got three thousand Jews killed for that as per Bible.
Similar for others
Say Buddhists, they have a tradition for coming of a Maitreya, a long prophecy consisting of 1298 words made by Buddha Shakyamuni, yet they don’t believe him as a prophet of God. Who is a prophet; one who makes a prophecy, there is no other good source than God, so it automatic, logically, proves that Buddha Shakyamuni believed in God, he received revelation from God so he made a prophecy, he was a prophet of God, yet he Buddhist don’t believe that he was a theist. So if Buddha comes to this world, will he recognize the Buddhists as his followers?
We all have to accept the realities and facts, whatever the priesthood may say. And believe and worship one God, believe in all the prophets, all the Revealed Books, angels and the Day of Judgment. God and His prophets are not racial, nor they know favoritism, they recognize follower believers from the teachings they have acted upon and the moral and attributes they possess.
That is my belief, others could believe what they think is the truth, no compulsion.
Thanks
Eudaimonist
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Tariki said:
Perhaps it is that Buddhists emulate Buddha, and Christians emulate Jesus Christ, however Buddha and Jesus did not emulate anyone -- they led the way.
eudaimonia,
Mark
Eudaimonia said:
Perhaps it is that Buddhists emulate Buddha, and Christians emulate Jesus Christ, however Buddha and Jesus did not emulate anyone -- they led the way.
This is the whole point. Buddha did not follow an ideal, he lived it. The same goes for all leaders - 'Buddhism' or 'Christianity' then defines the way they demonstrated - the attempt of people to follow the way as emulated in the lives they witnessed.
I disagree with the notion that Buddhists would murder the Buddha, or Christians would murder Christ. This may well be the 'way of the world' which seeks to serve itself, rather than a higher cause, but in so saying one should discriminate between common opinion and the unspoken faith of true believers.
To assume that to be Christian is to be Christ, or to be a Buddhist is to be Buddha, is asking for your neighbour to be perfect.
Christ lives in everyone - "In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." (John 1:4-5) - and who is Buddha but an enlightened being?
The world seeks to put out the light of Truth so that its own light is the only illumination - a glimmer against the 'supernal darkness' - darkness is a condition of self-willed ignorance, and "empty vessels make the most noise."
But they also serve, who only stand and wait." Milton.
The Word is Truth, and Beauty - the world is hollow, but with a seductive glamour. Meanwhile there are those who attempt to live the beatitudes, and they are reviled by the world, silenced by the world, ridiculed by the world ... and ignored ... the world makes a big deal of the murderer, and proclaims its shock and its horror and revulsion ... but more people die daily at the hands of the world, killed by callous indifference ... the world lives in utter denial of the reality of itself, for were it to look in the mirror, were it to listen to the voice of faith, it would slink away in the shame of its inhumanity.
Worry not, Jesus said:
"I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine."
(John 10:14)
When He speaks, those who carry Him in their hearts will recognise His voice.
God speed the day,
Thomas
Perhaps it is that Buddhists emulate Buddha, and Christians emulate Jesus Christ, however Buddha and Jesus did not emulate anyone -- they led the way.
This is the whole point. Buddha did not follow an ideal, he lived it. The same goes for all leaders - 'Buddhism' or 'Christianity' then defines the way they demonstrated - the attempt of people to follow the way as emulated in the lives they witnessed.
I disagree with the notion that Buddhists would murder the Buddha, or Christians would murder Christ. This may well be the 'way of the world' which seeks to serve itself, rather than a higher cause, but in so saying one should discriminate between common opinion and the unspoken faith of true believers.
To assume that to be Christian is to be Christ, or to be a Buddhist is to be Buddha, is asking for your neighbour to be perfect.
Christ lives in everyone - "In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." (John 1:4-5) - and who is Buddha but an enlightened being?
The world seeks to put out the light of Truth so that its own light is the only illumination - a glimmer against the 'supernal darkness' - darkness is a condition of self-willed ignorance, and "empty vessels make the most noise."
But they also serve, who only stand and wait." Milton.
The Word is Truth, and Beauty - the world is hollow, but with a seductive glamour. Meanwhile there are those who attempt to live the beatitudes, and they are reviled by the world, silenced by the world, ridiculed by the world ... and ignored ... the world makes a big deal of the murderer, and proclaims its shock and its horror and revulsion ... but more people die daily at the hands of the world, killed by callous indifference ... the world lives in utter denial of the reality of itself, for were it to look in the mirror, were it to listen to the voice of faith, it would slink away in the shame of its inhumanity.
Worry not, Jesus said:
"I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine."
(John 10:14)
When He speaks, those who carry Him in their hearts will recognise His voice.
God speed the day,
Thomas
My name is wil, only one L a little less L in me than there used to be but a little L left as well. I chuckled as I read your note Thomas, add a little L to the word and you get the worLd...Thomas said:
Vajradhara
One of Many
Namaste all,
indeed, with an understanding of the concept of Ahisma, it is quite clear that such deeds would not be done. moreover, it is a specific injunction which is found as part of the Precepts which one attempts to adhere to whilst being a Buddhist.
metta,
~v
indeed, with an understanding of the concept of Ahisma, it is quite clear that such deeds would not be done. moreover, it is a specific injunction which is found as part of the Precepts which one attempts to adhere to whilst being a Buddhist.
metta,
~v
ardenz
Well-Known Member
I found this thread way back in the archives while I was looking at connections between The Buddha and Jesus. I wonder if some of their original message is altered by the labelling, the books, the sects, the divisions of the religions over the years.
Why say Buddhism or Christian at all ? When the original teachers had no labels?
Personally I am a little "a la carte"- I follow aspects of the Buddha and aspects of Jesus. The Buddha had sorted out some pretty good methods for calming the mind. Jesus was good on "love thy neighbour". They both were searching for a greater whole.
Francis king
Well-Known Member
...yes, the buddha wasn't a buddhist, and nor was Jesus a christian...
...and the lesson there is...
..the message of buddha and jesus is theirs, but the rules of the game were written by other ppl... focus on the message and not the ROG's, and u'll be okay...
...so many ppl tie themselves up in striving to be the archetypal perfect holy being, get hung up on being good "christians" or good "buddhists", instead of just being good ppl... religion can become a trap all by itself, something which is supposedly liberating yet ends up binding us tightly to a load of neurosis, and I know this because not only do I see other ppl do it, but I have done it myself...
I am a krsna, so I better not eat onions, I must use hing instead... even though hing tastes like old socks, and I am a fan of baked onions...I must be charitable, that's what christians do... even though I haven't got two pennies to rub together, I should feel bad that I haven't given my coat away yet... I can't be angry and raise my voice, as that's not what buddhists do... even though I am right to be angry here, while I am being mugged at the station...
how can I be a real christian if I am jealous of my neighbours new car? How can I be a real buddhist if I eat meat? I must not be real enough, so I should alter my behaviour and then I will not experience cognitive dissonance...
and so we sublimate these normal human feelings because they do not seem to fit in with our belief system, but the more we do the more we have to do, as we up the ante for ourselves... eventually we become false or brainwashed or tired from tying ourselves up in knots, and then we're missing the point entirely...
as Krsna says himself- "if a person should offer me anything in devotion, a leaf, water, I shall accept..." so why worry that there might be a few slivers of onion in ur prasadam? does Krsna really care? I don't think he does...
...and the lesson there is...
..the message of buddha and jesus is theirs, but the rules of the game were written by other ppl... focus on the message and not the ROG's, and u'll be okay...
...so many ppl tie themselves up in striving to be the archetypal perfect holy being, get hung up on being good "christians" or good "buddhists", instead of just being good ppl... religion can become a trap all by itself, something which is supposedly liberating yet ends up binding us tightly to a load of neurosis, and I know this because not only do I see other ppl do it, but I have done it myself...
I am a krsna, so I better not eat onions, I must use hing instead... even though hing tastes like old socks, and I am a fan of baked onions...I must be charitable, that's what christians do... even though I haven't got two pennies to rub together, I should feel bad that I haven't given my coat away yet... I can't be angry and raise my voice, as that's not what buddhists do... even though I am right to be angry here, while I am being mugged at the station...
how can I be a real christian if I am jealous of my neighbours new car? How can I be a real buddhist if I eat meat? I must not be real enough, so I should alter my behaviour and then I will not experience cognitive dissonance...
and so we sublimate these normal human feelings because they do not seem to fit in with our belief system, but the more we do the more we have to do, as we up the ante for ourselves... eventually we become false or brainwashed or tired from tying ourselves up in knots, and then we're missing the point entirely...
as Krsna says himself- "if a person should offer me anything in devotion, a leaf, water, I shall accept..." so why worry that there might be a few slivers of onion in ur prasadam? does Krsna really care? I don't think he does...