How do different vultures promote dignity differently?

[Francis king]

no-one is bored of u, muslimwoman, u are one of the most intelligent and forthright ppl to have graced these boards in a long time...

i know u perceive me to make assumptions and be full of misconceptions but.. u buy something to wear, as a good muslim u know whats okay and what isnt, but u will then dismiss ur own opinion and accept ur husbands arguement, to please Allah... u come across as an intelligent women who is confident and has good self esteem, but my discomfort comes from my assumption that, regardless of the fact u are an intelligent and godly woman u would defer to ur husbands arguement... to please Allah...

yet, as u say, it is not the Quran that tells us that a see through dress is not a good thing, but comes from these suposed sayings of the prophet, which, if tao equus is right, were like the new testament bible and the gnostic gospels are today, and so these saying of the prophet would be apochrypa... or pseudographia...

u say in the olden days that u "... used to wear short skirts and had a cleavage I was rather proud of, I liked to look pretty. Now that I wear hijab - guess what - no men ever bother me. "

and so, to me, this suggests that u are quite aware of the power of ur own femininity, and have used it to ur advantage over time, and rather than be a sin, to me, that is part of the empowerment of women... rather than cover ourselves, it is only right that we should use what we have to get by, after all, men have had the upper hand for quite some time, and it is time they got a taste of their own medicine, in my humble opinion...

i have, incidentally, recently purchased a copy of the Quran, and maybe, just maybe, i shall actually read it, so that I can make my mind up as to what it is all about... u see, I hear good things about Islam, as a religion, it seems like, on the surface, a decent religion, and not that different to christianity, but I do not know any real living muslims, so I have only got what I get from the news as my education in Islam.. I recognise this as a deficit, hence my purchase of a quran, but then I am confronted with what I perceive to be the truth of Islam, the partriarchy, the sin, the hate, the veil, the jihad, and I am dissapointed with Islam because of this...

I am not trying to twist ur words to suit myself, but just trying to rouse u to think independently of what I presume to be ur cultural bindings... i know u wouldnt condemn me for that...

okay, u say that "Allah tells us that if we dress modestly men will recognise us as Muslim and not give us unwanted attention"... but to me, I find that alarming. To think that women have to behave a certain way so that men do not touch them up and try to have sex with them, well, to me that is distasteful. Okay, u then counter that by saying that muslim men also have the same proscriptions, but to me, again, it seems wrong...

u are obviously very knowledgable and I am learning new things here, about Islam, for instance, I did not know that four men would need to see copulation with their eyes before stoning could happen, and I certainly did not know that it would take 8 decent muslim women or 16 infidels, by comparision... to me, that just cements my view...

regarding the "some guy thing"... I did not realise u were referring to Mohammed, and would not have been so low as to speak ill of the prophet...

peace be upon him, and of course, u and urs also

cheerio

 

[Muslimwoman]

no-one is bored of u, muslimwoman, u are one of the most intelligent and forthright ppl to have graced these boards in a long time...

As salaam aleykum Francis

What a very charming and nice thing to say, thank you so much.

i know u perceive me to make assumptions and be full of misconceptions but.. u buy something to wear, as a good muslim u know whats okay and what isnt, but u will then dismiss ur own opinion and accept ur husbands arguement, to please Allah... u come across as an intelligent women who is confident and has good self esteem, but my discomfort comes from my assumption that, regardless of the fact u are an intelligent and godly woman u would defer to ur husbands arguement... to please Allah...

Oh no Francis, you misunderstand me, clearly I am not explaining myself properly. Ok, so you understand, insh'allah. Unless my husband is with me, to protect my dignity, I never try clothes on in a shop because there is no guarantee that I cannot be seen in a state of undress (that is just my personal preference, not a requirement). I explain to the shop keeper that I wish to try the clothes at home and as I dress as a Muslimah, so far, the shops have always accepted this request without a problem. When in the shop I hold the clothes up to the light and put my hand behind them, to see if you can see through them. However, on occassion (I think just twice now), when I take the clothes home and try them on my husband points out that my legs can be seen with light behind me. I now have a choice, wear something under the dress (which would be too hot for me) or return the clothes and get something else. I ask my husband because I cannot see myself from far off.

Remember I was not born a Muslim and sometimes I do get it wrong. There was once that I bought a winter jumper and I thought it was lovely. My husband asked me to return it to the shop and I asked why, he explained that there are small flowers knitted into the jumper and my skin could be seen through the holes. When this was pointed out to me I understood and returned the jumper. It was not a question of my husband refusing to let me wear it, I just hadn't realised my skin could be seen.

yet, as u say, it is not the Quran that tells us that a see through dress is not a good thing, but comes from these suposed sayings of the prophet, which, if tao equus is right, were like the new testament bible and the gnostic gospels are today, and so these saying of the prophet would be apochrypa... or pseudographia...

Plus ask yourself what a veill is? The Quran tells believeing women to "draw their veils over their bosoms". A veil is worn on the head and it is this we must draw over our bosoms. So the Quran clearly states how we should dress. You could argue that a veil was normal dress in those days but that is a whole new conversation.

and so, to me, this suggests that u are quite aware of the power of ur own femininity, and have used it to ur advantage over time, and rather than be a sin, to me, that is part of the empowerment of women... rather than cover ourselves, it is only right that we should use what we have to get by, after all, men have had the upper hand for quite some time, and it is time they got a taste of their own medicine, in my humble opinion...

Yes I am fully aware of the power of my femininity and in the past I have certainly used it, very successfully, to get what I want. However I now choose to challenge men and their desire for dominance with my intellect not my boobs. What surprised me is that I now now not only get what I want but I also get much more respect, because by using my femininity to get what I wanted I was reinforcing the male ego 'give the little girly what she wants'. Now when I get what I want it is because I have worked for it, on an even playing field as men.

You talk so strongly of womens liberation, of not wanting to go back to the dark ages but women didn't win the right to vote by propping up their cleavage and adding extra lipstick. When you see a beautiful sexy woman driving a mercedes do you say "wow she must be intelligent and have a great job to have a nice car like that"? No, we all hold the same misconceptions and we think "wonder who she's humping to get that". Yet we dont think that when we see a modest woman driving the same car. Sorry but that is just life. If women truly want to be free they must stop using the power of femininity and start using brain power.

i have, incidentally, recently purchased a copy of the Quran, and maybe, just maybe, i shall actually read it, so that I can make my mind up as to what it is all about... u see, I hear good things about Islam, as a religion, it seems like, on the surface, a decent religion, and not that different to christianity, but I do not know any real living muslims, so I have only got what I get from the news as my education in Islam.. I recognise this as a deficit, hence my purchase of a quran, but then I am confronted with what I perceive to be the truth of Islam, the partriarchy, the sin, the hate, the veil, the jihad, and I am dissapointed with Islam because of this...

Francis I am delighted that you bought the Quran, even if you use it as a tool to argue with me, at least you will have made the effort to learn the truth of what Islam is (which is much more than most do). One of my major arguments against Muslims is that they say awful things about the Bible and the Torah but have never opened a book about either. How can you discuss modern art if you know nothing about the subject or have never seen a painting?!

The other point I would like to make is that I know Muslim women who choose not to wear hijab (unless praying) and I don't consider them sinful or anti Islamic. They hold the belief that life has moved on and they can dress modestly without wearing hijab. Each to their own belief and I am not in a position to judge anybody.

Reading the Quran is the right way to go, even if it is just for knowledge of what Islam is. The beauty of Islam is held within it's pages, not on the internet or by listening to the miriad of interpretations of shari'a. Also not by looking at what Muslims do now. I am afraid I believe, as many Mulsims do now, that the Ummah (all Muslim people) have gone astray in many ways but please do not judge Islam by the acts of ignorant or misguided people.

If you do read it and have questions please let me know, I may not have the knowledge to answer you but I have some knowledge where to look for the answers.

I am not trying to twist

ur words to suit myself, but just trying to rouse u to think independently of what I presume to be ur cultural bindings... i know u wouldnt condemn me for that...

I thoroughly enjoy your challenges. I am more than capable of thinking independantly and I hope always do. As I explained I have no cultural bindings, I am european born and bred, brought up with a completely free mind. I choose how I live, I accept what I believe and reject what I don't - that is why I don't follow a particular Islamic school.

okay, u say that "Allah tells us that if we dress modestly men will recognise us as Muslim and not give us unwanted attention"... but to me, I find that alarming. To think that women have to behave a certain way so that men do not touch them up and try to have sex with them, well, to me that is distasteful. Okay, u then counter that by saying that muslim men also have the same proscriptions, but to me, again, it seems wrong...

You said in one of your posts that we should be able to walk down the street naked, being unmolested and I agree but can you? No, that is just human nature. I will make a deal with you, the day you walk around the streets naked and no-one calls out or stares or has rude thoughts about you, then I will go outside without my hijab.

If G-d had wanted us to be naked wouldn't He have given us a means of protecting ourselves from the elements (as He did with animals).

u are obviously very knowledgable and I am learning new things here, about Islam, for instance, I did not know that four men would need to see copulation with their eyes before stoning could happen, and I certainly did not know that it would take 8 decent muslim women or 16 infidels, by comparision... to me, that just cements my view...

Please don't say I am knowledgable, I only know the tip of the iceberg and I am learning everyday. G-d blessed me with a good logical brain and I just try to use it.

There is nothing in the Quran about stoning, not one verse, not even one that can be misinterpreted to mean stoning, read the Quran you will see. Again it is the Ahadith that refer to stoning and many Muslim scholars are debating the issue of stoning and looking into the ahadith to establish (or not) it’s authenticity – basically looking for a way out.

Stoning used to be used by the ancient Greeks, the Jews and then Islam. Stoning is still used in Saudi, Afghanistan, UAE, Nigeria and Sudan. (a very small percentage of the Muslim population). Even Iran has now placed a moratorium on this practice, although it still remains a possibility on their statute books. Reports still come from Iran that the people will stone to death but this is not done by the state any more, if we can believe what we read but even if we can’t at least their judiciary are officially taking a stand about this.

It is of course cruel and abhorrent and another example of people following something other than the Quran. This point just emphasises what I have said, judge Islam by the Quran rather than the acts of Muslims.

regarding the "some guy thing"... I did not realise u were referring to Mohammed, and would not have been so low as to speak ill of the prophet...

Thank you for saying that, I had assumed you had read the name of the person quoting the hadith and not realised it was the Prophet himself that said this. I do not think the Prophet Mohammad was without sin, he sinned (the Quran says this) but like Jesus (pbuh) I believe he was inspired by G-d and must therefore be respected.

So that you know, if someone quotes a hadith it may not mention the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) specifically. It may give the name of the person quoting the Prophet and may also give the name of the scholar who’s book/collection of ahadith it is taken from. But all ahadith are referring to an act, tradition or saying of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh).

Salaam

 

[Muslimwoman]

We are seriously hijacking this thread.

Yes Abu Bakr who on Muhammads death and his succession to power immediately launched what I believe is called the War of Apostacy. Apparently there were many in the area at the time who were claimimg 'divine dialogue' with the Almighty. Muhammad had through force and diplomacy, (and, from a cynics viewpoint such as mine, through claim of 'divine sanction'), united the tribes of the area. He was first and foremost a warlord. His death basicly ended that. Leading to this War of Apostacy.

The words of Muhammad had not at that time been collected together as a single volume, being that he only said things oraly, being unable to write. In order to secure his (Abu Bakr) position and have complete control over the legacy of Mohammad he ordered as a part of his war that any and all written refferences to what Muhammad said be collected and given to him. What did not fit with his ideas did not make it in. So who knows what Muhammad really said?

In my view Islam has it's foundations built on political scheming, it was the tool of warlords excersising whatever and all methods they could to seize power in that region at that time. That it ever became such a huge organised religion is a testament to the folly of mans irrationality.

I have discussed this same subject at length previously here at CR but cant recal which thread and have not yet been able to track it down. I did a bit of research on that one and cited my sources there. When I find it I will let you know.

Regards

TE

Please do let me know when you find it, as you can imagine I might have a thing or two to say about it.

Maybe we should move it to a different thread though, not a lot about dress or dignity in the warlord conversation.

Salaam

 

[Tao_Equus]

Please do let me know when you find it, as you can imagine I might have a thing or two to say about it.

Maybe we should move it to a different thread though, not a lot about dress or dignity in the warlord conversation.

Salaam

I managed to trace one of my sources down...see link below.


Legacy of Abu Bakr: Compilation of the Qur'an « IBN AL HYDERABADEE


As you can see here what I stated before is plainly a fair interpretation. I.E. that the Quran is not the Word of God revealed to Mohammad by Gabrial. But the assimilated writings of any number of individuals at war and wishing to promote and justify their given positions.

I draw such a conclusion as a sceptic of course. The claim of 'divine dialogue' during fits or seizures was common practice for wannabee spirtualists and soothsayers at that time. So Muhammad, to my thinking, employed the same tomfoolery to validate his claims. He did not write it down though and left his companions or 'political allies' to do so. Given the context that this was incontravertably a time of power struggles and political wrangling I find it disengenious to state that the writings were not subject to political tampering. So I feel just in my assertion that the Quran is not verifiably even the work of Mohammad, let alone Allah.

If you wish to discuss it further though I think it deserves its own thread.

Regards

TE

 

[Muslimwoman]

I managed to trace one of my sources down...see link below.


Legacy of Abu Bakr: Compilation of the Qur'an « IBN AL HYDERABADEE


As you can see here what I stated before is plainly a fair interpretation. I.E. that the Quran is not the Word of God revealed to Mohammad by Gabrial. But the assimilated writings of any number of individuals at war and wishing to promote and justify their given positions.

I draw such a conclusion as a sceptic of course. The claim of 'divine dialogue' during fits or seizures was common practice for wannabee spirtualists and soothsayers at that time. So Muhammad, to my thinking, employed the same tomfoolery to validate his claims. He did not write it down though and left his companions or 'political allies' to do so. Given the context that this was incontravertably a time of power struggles and political wrangling I find it disengenious to state that the writings were not subject to political tampering. So I feel just in my assertion that the Quran is not verifiably even the work of Mohammad, let alone Allah.

If you wish to discuss it further though I think it deserves its own thread.

Regards

TE

as salaam aleykum TE

Okay give me a new thread, no way can I let that one past me.

Salaam

 

[Tao_Equus]

as salaam aleykum TE

Okay give me a new thread, no way can I let that one past me.

Salaam

Ok Authenticity of Religious Books... Same category, Comparative, dont want to start in Islam section as it may offend there.

Regards

TE

 

[Francis king]

when I have read my quaran I will be back, muslimwoman! thank u for being a good woman and a decent muslim...

peace be upon u

 

[Muslimwoman]

when I have read my quaran I will be back, muslimwoman! thank u for being a good woman and a decent muslim...

peace be upon u

wa aleykum salaam Francis

I am no authority or scholar but if you have any questions and would like my personal thoughts please feel free to PM me. Thank you for your kind words, Insh'allah we all try to be the best person we can and serve Allah as well as we are able.

I know you will enjoy reading the Quran, there is a message for all mankind held inside (as there is in all scriptures).

Best wishes
Salaam