Dor
Bible Thumper
Sorry truth to me is from the bible and the Holy Spirit.
I could care less what any man says truth is supposed to be. Whether his name is preceded by Pope or if he is seen on 40 million TVs means nothing.
Reasonable faith
- Thread starter Dondi
- Start date
I could care less what any man says truth is supposed to be. Whether his name is preceded by Pope or if he is seen on 40 million TVs means nothing.
Dondi
Well-Known Member
JosephM said:
Is love just mere acceptance? Does God accept the vilest offender without recourse? On what basis is His forgiveness?
When it comes to salvation? I believe "yes".
The way I see it, G-d is the "absolute standard".
Hi,
This is, to me, an interesting topic; but I would have liked to see it in a broader forum for people of other faiths to engage in it perhaps.
s.
Dondi
Well-Known Member
I'll go for that. Can the moderators would move this in, say, the Belief and Spirituality forum?
pattimax
Somewhat returning
JosephM
Well-Known Member
Hi Thomas,
Very entertaining.
It seems to me, the falling or standing of philosophies has little to do with memorable or not. It follows the whims of the times. The bloke down the pub has as much a right to be heard as Plato. Who you listen to or deem reasonable is your choice.
To me, Yes, this does render the world entirely subjective.
No, I am not saying every man for himself. You said that. I said what I said.
Yes, it seems to me that everything is relative and negotiable, and perhaps it can be negotiated away.
Peace,
JM
JosephM
Well-Known Member
Hello Dondi,
It seems to me, Yes, God loves all equally and accepts all of his creation equally without prejudice. His forgiveness is without need for basis yet our forgiveness of others dictates our own forgiveness (spritual law of God's perfect self-regulating universe). God created the heavens and the earth and all therein and saw that it was Good. He has not changed his mind even as regards what one might consider the vilest. In my view, It is not HE who needs to forgive, it is us. His mercy and forgiveness is without question.
Love in Christ,
JM
Hi,
Not sure what you mean by this; I would have thought that since Christianity is a religion and can be found all around the world, that it constitutes one of the “world religions” (as opposed to being geographically localised). In fact, numerically speaking it is one of the “Big 3”, together with Islam and Hinduism.
s.
I agree. I would express this as saying that we create our world from birth and our world dies with us. (But maybe you wouldn't express it like that. Damn that subjectivity.)
s.
JosephM
Well-Known Member
Dondi
Well-Known Member
So what is the basis for eternal life, forgiveness for each other? What if we were not capable of doing such?
pattimax
Somewhat returning
JosephM
Well-Known Member
Hello again Dondi,
God is the basis of eternal life. (the foundation upon which eternal life rests)
In my view, whether one forgives others or not, life is eternal. The conditions may differ at a given moment in time but the spirit is eternal and not subject to death except in the duality of one's mind.
In my view, "What if" is a hypothetical situation that has no basis in reality. All things are possible therefore "not capable" is an oxymoron.
Peace,
JM
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
In the view of the bible and the Holy Spirit
Jesus is not a liar.. He said people will perish.. in two places right off the top of my head He said it TWICE in the same breath..
Luke 13:5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise
perish."
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Jesus is not a liar.. He said people will perish.. in two places right off the top of my head He said it TWICE in the same breath..
Luke 13:5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise
perish."
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
JosephM
Well-Known Member
Hello Faithfulservant,
It seems to me that you are correct. Jesus was not a liar. Perhaps though, he was often missunderstood. That which is spirit is spirit and that which is flesh is flesh. The flesh will perish whether you believe or not but the spirit is eternal. Whether in hell/torment or heaven, eternal is eternal with no beginning or end. To perish is only a figure of speech. Life eternal in Bible context is nothing more than to know God.
John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Not knowing God is spoken of in the Bible as separation or death but in reality there is no death or separation except in the mind of flesh. God is present everywhere from the lowest depths to the highest high. He is omnipresent. Death has a sting to him who lives in sin but no reality to the eternal spirit. It seems to me that in reality it is impossible to separate yourself from God for by him all things are made and consist. Existence is only possible in the presence of God of which there is no place by definition that he isn't.
Just a view to consider,
Peace,
JM
It seems to me that you are correct. Jesus was not a liar. Perhaps though, he was often missunderstood. That which is spirit is spirit and that which is flesh is flesh. The flesh will perish whether you believe or not but the spirit is eternal. Whether in hell/torment or heaven, eternal is eternal with no beginning or end. To perish is only a figure of speech. Life eternal in Bible context is nothing more than to know God.
John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Not knowing God is spoken of in the Bible as separation or death but in reality there is no death or separation except in the mind of flesh. God is present everywhere from the lowest depths to the highest high. He is omnipresent. Death has a sting to him who lives in sin but no reality to the eternal spirit. It seems to me that in reality it is impossible to separate yourself from God for by him all things are made and consist. Existence is only possible in the presence of God of which there is no place by definition that he isn't.
Just a view to consider,
Peace,
JM
There are two arguments going on here ...
One is saying there are no absolutes that can be known, everything is relative, it's the argument of the Enlightenment and modernity.
The term reasonable then becomes meaningless. Everybody considers themselves reasonable. No one has the right to say they are not. As someone said, 'everything is permissable'.
The other is saying God is absolute.
Because God is absolute, I can make absolute statements.
What you cannot prove, however, is that the voice you hear is the voice of God. You may well think it is. You may think you're handsome.
I am saying:
Where God is concerned, as in science, there are absolutes that can be known.
We cannot individually assert them authoritatively.
The community agrees to an authoritative/absolute standard.
Those standards can change.
But some here argue that the community has no right to set a standard – that is seen as invasive, hierarchical and tyrannical.
And we know that individual standards are fallible.
So there are no 'standards' as such.
There is simply a state of complacency in which we're happy to live as long as 'they' do not make conditions too uncomfortable, personally.
So the argument of reason is invalid.
Pattimax pointed out that the West does not own 'wooly thinking'. I agree. But we set the standard for complacency, I think.
Thomas
One is saying there are no absolutes that can be known, everything is relative, it's the argument of the Enlightenment and modernity.
The term reasonable then becomes meaningless. Everybody considers themselves reasonable. No one has the right to say they are not. As someone said, 'everything is permissable'.
The other is saying God is absolute.
Because God is absolute, I can make absolute statements.
What you cannot prove, however, is that the voice you hear is the voice of God. You may well think it is. You may think you're handsome.
I am saying:
Where God is concerned, as in science, there are absolutes that can be known.
We cannot individually assert them authoritatively.
The community agrees to an authoritative/absolute standard.
Those standards can change.
But some here argue that the community has no right to set a standard – that is seen as invasive, hierarchical and tyrannical.
And we know that individual standards are fallible.
So there are no 'standards' as such.
There is simply a state of complacency in which we're happy to live as long as 'they' do not make conditions too uncomfortable, personally.
So the argument of reason is invalid.
Pattimax pointed out that the West does not own 'wooly thinking'. I agree. But we set the standard for complacency, I think.
Thomas