Judaism 101

[Muslimwoman]

i don't think the problem is with muhammad exactly, i think it's with the compilers of the hadeeth and 'ayaat, to say nothing of the supposedly modern interpreters such as al-qaradawi. i know what book you'd like to read - karen armstrong's "the battle for G!D" which is a comparative history of fundamentalism. i also recommend her "a history of G!D" as a fantastic piece of comparative religious writing.

I hate to say this but I rather like al-Qaradawi. I know he has a totally unacceptable view on the Israel issue but to be honest this is the blind hatred all Egyptians are born with. That is no excuse for his view, I am just saying I know where it comes from. When you read what he says about Jews you see that his hatred is targeted toward the land issue and not Jews as a nation of people. He has many forward thinking ideas and whilst he has some bad ideas, overall it is thinking like his that will bring much needed change to Islam.

I just love Karen Armstrong, I have the History of G-d and refer to it often. I haven't heard of The Battle for G-d (english books are a bit hard to get here) but shall try to get hold of it.

then how does one explain the flood?

Personally I explain it as a punishment from G-d. I do not see it as G-d deciding He had got the message wrong and so He started over and came up with a new message.

that's not what i mean (although people believe he went to jerusalem, don't they?)

This comes from the Night Journey of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), however as with all things Islamic there are different views. If you are interested there is a short article suggesting the journey was from Mecca to Medina, not Mecca to Jerusalem:

Special Dispatch Series - No. 564

Of course I live in Egypt and this is from the Egyptian Ministry of Culture, so could easily be an attempt to draw any feeling of attachment away from Jerusalem. There are some very good points in the article including the issue of where was the al-Aqsa mosque.

i think it's been repealed, but i think it's still operating in the tribal areas and, as you should know, the shari'a courts are very much up and running - whether in parallel with regular law, i don't know, but either way, the version being taught is very much saudi-influenced.

Sorry I wasn't suggesting things are all hunky-dory there now. I was just suggesting that anyone wishing to introduce a new Islamic state would have that failure to contend with. Had it been a roaring success then we may have had more to worry about.

i really hope you're right, although people consider al-qaradawi, for example, to be moderate, whereas from my PoV there's not much difference between him and some foaming salafi obscurantist.

For a traditional Muslim scholar he is moderate but does have some extremist views based on his cultural background. What I meant though was that the strength of Islam will move from the middle east and become more global, as the ummah grows in the west. This will take time but I believe will inevitably water down some of the more extremist views that come out of the middle east.

Salaam

 

[Muslimwoman]

Hi Guys

Just a quick question and of little significance other than curiosity.

What is the significance of the black strap Jewish men wrap around their arms while they pray?

Salaam

 

[dauer]

It's not the straps so much as the boxes the straps hold on, or more particularly the texts inside. That type of amulet goes way back, that style of securing with leather straps. In the Jewish case it houses some pieces of parchment with passages on it, and is linked to some somewhat ambiguous passages in Torah. More info.... here:

Tefillin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dauer

 

[Muslimwoman]

It's not the straps so much as the boxes the straps hold on, or more particularly the texts inside. That type of amulet goes way back, that style of securing with leather straps. In the Jewish case it houses some pieces of parchment with passages on it, and is linked to some somewhat ambiguous passages in Torah. More info.... here:

Tefillin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dauer

Hi Dauer

Thanks, that clears that one up. It seems to an outsider a lovely way to remmber G-d every day.

Some more questions if I may.

Is the Talmud like the Muslim Sunnah but still in oral form?

In Judaism 101 site it refers in one place to prayers 2 times a day and in another place to something to be recited 3 times a day during prayers. How many times a day are Jews obliged to pray?

From Judaism 101 I have the impression that Jews do not believe in such definitive places as heaven and hell (ie an actual physical place) - please correct me if I have this one wrong. It then goes on to say the souls of all Jews were in existence at the Giving of the Torah. This would suggest a period of 'waiting to be born' - so where did you wait? Sorry that is very badly phrased as it assumes a physical place but I am not sure how best to ask the question, hope you understand what I mean.

It says in Olam Ha-Ba the world will recognise the Jewish G-d as the only true G-d and the Jewish religion to be the only true religion. Do Jews believe that the G-d I worship is the same G-d or that I worship a false G-d? Also I am unable to be a Jew, I was not born a Jew but a gentile, so I could never belong to the Jewish religion - so does this also exclude me from the life after this one and from worshipping the true G-d in this life?

Thanks for your patience with my questions.

Salaam

 

[dauer]

Is the Talmud like the Muslim Sunnah but still in oral form?

The Talmud is actually written. The traditional understanding is generally that an Oral Torah which has been passed down since Sinai is contained within and is the basis for the Talmud, in part supplying the tools the rest of the Talmud uses, but not that they're identical. The Talmud contains two parts, mishna and gemara. The mishna was compiled I think around 200 CE and depending on who you're asking, the gemara sometime between I think 600 and 1000 CE. Within a Jewish context, you really can't understand the Torah without the gemara, that is to say, if you only went by the Torah and not the gemara, you might arrive at a number of practices and beliefs, but you wouldn't arrive at Judaism as it is today. The Karaites are a group that reject the oral torah and so, for example, they mix milk and meat, but they're much more scrupulous about additives that contain those things expressly forbidden. In the Talmud you get some concepts that allow for more flexibility, like the idea that one thing can become another thing in certain circumstances, or that if something unkosher were added to food accidentally, less than a certain pecentage, and it didn't change the flavor, it would still be kosher. Of course that implies tasting it to find out.

In Judaism 101 site it refers in one place to prayers 2 times a day and in another place to something to be recited 3 times a day during prayers. How many times a day are Jews obliged to pray?

Often it's more like two times, because mincha and ma'ariv often get combined. There are three prayer services on a normal day. On some special days there can sometimes be more.

From Judaism 101 I have the impression that Jews do not believe in such definitive places as heaven and hell (ie an actual physical place) - please correct me if I have this one wrong.

That is somewhat correct, and there's less worry about the afterlife in general. It's more this-worldly. I mean, there's no concept of hell as it exists in Islam and Christianity. It's more like purgatory. And we don't have any concrete ideas about what might happen in either of those places. I think we could say more definitively that it's not considered something that's out there, part of the physical world, spatially. But that they may be a part of reality is certainly a Jewish idea.

It then goes on to say the souls of all Jews were in existence at the Giving of the Torah. This would suggest a period of 'waiting to be born' - so where did you wait?

That's a good question. And there's probably more than one answer. There is the idea of reincarnation in Judaism, and at the very least, if not every person was physically there, their soul root could have been. There's also a story that before birth, you know the whole Torah. But before you're born an angel puts its finger to your lips, and you forget it all, so that learning Torah is really in a sense remembering something forgotten. I wonder if the two concepts are linked, that one knows Torah from being present at Sinai, and that is why they are made to forget before birth.

It says in Olam Ha-Ba the world will recognise the Jewish G-d as the only true G-d and the Jewish religion to be the only true religion.

I've never been fond of jewfaq. It often tries to simplify something that's really not monolithic into something more definite and concrete, when a lot of Judaism just doesn't have definite answers. You might have better luck here:

MyJewishLearning.com: Week of May 14, 2007: Jewish American Heritage Month

If you look under special topics there's also a list of primers, that just cover the very basics, with room to explore further if you're interested in a particular subject.

Do Jews believe that the G-d I worship is the same G-d or that I worship a false G-d?

Most generally the same. Otherwise there wouldn't be permission for Jews to pray in mosques. But even Churches, where traditionally Jews aren't supposed to pray, the Christian God is considered the same. It's a bit easier in Judaism to say that, I think, where not everyone within the religion views God the same way anyway. Some people are really rationalist. Some people are really mystical. Some see God as Unmoved Mover, some see God as Everything and More. And lots of in-betweensviews. And now we also have forms of Judaism that are completely naturalist and what-have-you. Theology isn't very concrete for us.

Also I am unable to be a Jew, I was not born a Jew but a gentile, so I could never belong to the Jewish religion - so does this also exclude me from the life after this one and from worshipping the true G-d in this life?

No. It is understood in Judaism that the rightous of all nations have a place in olam haba. And the brit with Jews is understood to be for the Jewish people. The traditional answer would be that everyone else is under the brit with Noah.

MyJewishLearning.com - Ideas & Belief: The Noahide Laws

Shalom u'vrachah.

--Dauer

 

[bananabrain]

The mishna was compiled I think around 200 CE and depending on who you're asking, the gemara sometime between I think 600 and 1000 CE.

i'd say the gemara was redacted by ravina and rav ashi more between 500-600, otherwise the muslims would probably have been mentioned. for the period after that, you're really talking about the ga'onim of babylon/iraq that i mentioned earlier.

I mean, there's no concept of hell as it exists in Islam and Christianity. It's more like purgatory.

although there is very definitely the idea that "gehinnom" involves flames (which are turned off on the sabbath), hence the rather pessimistic rabbi who used to sit on a stove in order to practice for when he got sent there, who was nicknamed "the little chap with the burnt legs".

That's a good question. And there's probably more than one answer. There is the idea of reincarnation in Judaism, and at the very least, if not every person was physically there, their soul root could have been.

think of it like the law of conservation of energy, but instead of physical energy, it's spiritual energy - souls are not atomic, they can be subdivided and recombined; it's like spiritual DNA.

But before you're born an angel puts its finger to your lips, and you forget it all, so that learning Torah is really in a sense remembering something forgotten. I wonder if the two concepts are linked, that one knows Torah from being present at Sinai, and that is why they are made to forget before birth.

again, if you consider the conservation of energy, that is a logical consequence.

I've never been fond of jewfaq. It often tries to simplify something that's really not monolithic into something more definite and concrete, when a lot of Judaism just doesn't have definite answers.

but with that said, it is "judaism 101" - i use it as a starting point, but one should never stop just there. i wouldn't necessary go for myjewishlearning.com unless i already knew about how different jewish opinions work. you need more knowledge to make effective use of it.

Most generally the same.[G!D]

definitely, although the stupider and more ignorant can often make the mistake. even rambam, who was no fan of muslims in general, considered islam to be bona fide monotheism whilst considering christianity to be polytheistic and therefore idolatrous - he's not the last word on that, of course, despite what some people seem to be taught.

Theology isn't very concrete for us.

yeah, we're not a dogma religion - the nearest we can get is stuff like rambam's 13 principles, which are really only the 13 atomic axioms of judaism which can only be supported by faith rather than logical reasoning or deduction. halakhah (ie matters of correct practice) must be resolved either one way or another. however, aggadah (ie matters of speculative theology, legend, mystical insight or illustrative analogy and symbolism) can be understood many different ways, there is no obligation to come up with an authoritative statement of faith.

Also I am unable to be a Jew, I was not born a Jew but a gentile, so I could never belong to the Jewish religion

you could also convert, but we would be prohibited from encouraging you to do so - there's no benefit to you, you see, because as dauer said you get your portion in 'olam ha-ba by keeping the 7 noahide laws, whereas if you became a jew, you'd have another 606 laws to keep. G!D doesn't Hold with making things more difficult than they already are or overcomplicating things. it is humans that do that.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[dauer]

but with that said, it is "judaism 101" - i use it as a starting point, but one should never stop just there. i wouldn't necessary go for myjewishlearning.com unless i already knew about how different jewish opinions work. you need more knowledge to make effective use of it.

It's true myjewishlearning presents a more complex and multi-faceted view of Judaism, but imo it's better than exposing someone to a lot of half-truths and generalizations stated in a rather matter-of-factly tone, especially when the amount to which someone is going to investigate into things is in question. The variety of information available on mjl helps to raise questions about black and white thinking about Judaism. And myjewishlearning has been developing more organized content to go over the basics, like the listing of primers:

MyJewishLearning.com: Introduction to Judaism

While the primers themselves do sometimes take an approach more informed by developments in archeology, detached textual analysis, and other modern approaches in the understanding of Judaism as history and as a living religion, unlike jewfaq if you choose to continue beyond the primers it offers more varied and nuanced voices in the matter, that address a much larger spectrum of jewish thought and practice without ever leaving the website, and with pointers to all of the relevant material on the matter, included guided journeys through the pages on the side in increasing levels of depth and complexity.

They also have other areas of interest, like a full section on interfaith issues:

MyJewishLearning.com: Interfaith Index

A section on denominations, which would probably be a decent starting point or near-starting point if one wants to be able to better tell us apart, understand the totality and, as you pinpoint quite accurately, make better use of the site:

MyJewishLearning.com: Denominations Index

Just seems a lot more helpful to give someone a more well-rounded place to start that's not making any claims to one particular voice for Judaism than to suggest something that's very partisan, one-sided, and limited in scope. Of course even as you probably disagree with some of the ideas on the website, it's much closer to your views than some of the stuff on mjl and leads people to first be exposed to more Orthodox ideas, at least the ones the author of the website most favors or is at least more accepting of. And as a limited approach to judaism, it's certainly better than the stuff chabad generally puts out, which is sometimes much more partisan, and true for an even greater minority of the Jewish people. As I see it though, even wikipedia's Jewish sections are a better source of information:

Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It even has a very large page on Islam and Judaism that both addresses mutual history and the ways in which beliefs are similar and different:

Islam and Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are of course, issues with wikipedia, generalizations for example, many of them lacking a countertext that even indirectly addresses the matter. And in that way it's biased both toward the more orthodox views and the more liberal views, depending primarily on who the major editors have been of particular pieces.

Dauer

 

[Prober]

There's also a story that before birth, you know the whole Torah. But before you're born an angel puts its finger to your lips, and you forget it all, so that learning Torah is really in a sense remembering something forgotten.

Isn't there a story that birth defects come from babies that wrestle with the angel so as not to have Torah removed (forgotten)?

 

[Prober]

although there is very definitely the idea that "gehinnom" involves flames (which are turned off on the sabbath)

Are you kidding? That's a cool (literally) concept - even "hell" rests on the sabbath.

 

[dauer]

Isn't there a story that birth defects come from babies that wrestle with the angel so as not to have Torah removed (forgotten)?

Not certain. There very well may be. As much as the legal literature of Judaism is a vast sea, the non-legal literature is also a vast sea. The indent above our lips is attributed to the angel who silences.

Are you kidding? That's a cool (literally) concept - even "hell" rests on the sabbath.

There a really in-depth review of jewish ideas about the afterlife as well as reincarnation I came across once. Let me see if I can find it. Despite being from Renewal, it's probably more in-depth than most anything else I've seen on the web, and of course, this is only one way of looking at it:

Judaism and Reincarnation

It looks like it's a different host, and possibly slightly abridged, but still good.

Dauer

 

[dauer]

also this link, which is where I located a link to that essay and is another informative page:

S.C.J. FAQ: Section 12.8. Jewish Thought: What do Jews say happens when a person dies? Do Jews believe in reincarnation? In hell or heaven? Purgatory?

 

[Tao_Equus]

Muslimwoman, Dauer & Bananabrain,

Just a note to say I have been following this thread and to thank you all for increasing my knowledge on the Hebrew Faith several thousand percent.

TE

 

[Muslimwoman]

But before you're born an angel puts its finger to your lips, and you forget it all, so that learning Torah is really in a sense remembering something forgotten. I wonder if the two concepts are linked, that one knows Torah from being present at Sinai, and that is why they are made to forget before birth.

As always thank you so much for your explanations.

Sorry I need the blonde version, I know Sinai as the place Moses received the tablets of stone and a great place to go scuba diving these days, beyond that I am a bit lost. What significance does Sinai have for Jewish people, other than the place Moses received the tablets? I don't mean to make that sound trivial.

You might have better luck here:

MyJewishLearning.com: Week of May 14, 2007: Jewish American Heritage Month

I will check out the various links you have given, thankyou. At the moment I shall try to work my way through the one site and then move on to these, so please don't think I am ungrateful.

No. It is understood in Judaism that the rightous of all nations have a place in olam haba.

Phew that's a relief.

Salaam

 

[Muslimwoman]

although there is very definitely the idea that "gehinnom" involves flames (which are turned off on the sabbath), hence the rather pessimistic rabbi who used to sit on a stove in order to practice for when he got sent there, who was nicknamed "the little chap with the burnt legs".

Hi BB

Oh bless him, I nearly fell off my chair laughing.

but with that said, it is "judaism 101" - i use it as a starting point, but one should never stop just there. i wouldn't necessary go for myjewishlearning.com unless i already knew about how different jewish opinions work. you need more knowledge to make effective use of it.

Am concerned about brain overload, it is a lot to take in. So I shall work my way through 101 before I move on to the links Dauer gave me. Let's be honest it is hard enough for me to understand all the 'views' in Islam without adding the Jewish ones to the melting pot.

definitely,

Do you mean we definately worship the same G-d?

yeah, we're not a dogma religion

Am having a bit of trouble with this one BB. My brain associates Judaism with rather a strict lifestyle and a very 'strong' faith, yet you and Dauer are making it sound a bit, dare I say, 'wishy washy'. Concepts do not seem very concrete or am I just misunderstanding you?

you could also convert

Would a convert be classed as one of the 'chosen'? Sorry I know how this works in Islam but I always associate Jews with 'birthright'.

Salaam

 

[Muslimwoman]

Muslimwoman, Dauer & Bananabrain,

Just a note to say I have been following this thread and to thank you all for increasing my knowledge on the Hebrew Faith several thousand percent.

TE

Hi TE

I only ask the questions but glad you're enjoying it. Really pleased to know that others are also here to learn and not just state their own views.

Salaam

 

[dauer]

What significance does Sinai have for Jewish people, other than the place Moses received the tablets? I don't mean to make that sound trivial.

It is the place of revelation where, traditionally, the whole Torah written and oral is given to the Jewish people and the covenant that was made previously is renewed. It's also the place where the most important basis for the Jewish concept of God appears in Judaism, the description given where Moses sees God's back, as it were, related to mercy and forgiveness. This is the way the passage is generally understood:

"1. HaShem (before the sin)

2. HaShem (after the sin)

(note from dauer: This is because the name used in the Hebrew here, YHWH, which Hashem "the name" is being used as a substitute for represents God's mercy. Elohim represents God's justice.)

3. Kel (power)

(Dauer's note: It's actually El but a k has been added here as a substitute, as is the practice of some outside of prayer. El is a very ambiguous word that can means someone of power, a god, or God.)

4. Rachum (merciful)

5. Chanun (grace)

6. Erech apayim (long-tempered)

7. Rav-chesed (great in mercy)

8. (Rav) emet (great in truth)

9. Notzer chesed l'alafim (keeps mercy for a thousand generations)

10. Nosei avon (bears iniquity)

11 (Nosei) pesha (transgression)

12. (Nosei) chata'a (sin)

(dauer's note: These are the three categories of sin in Judaism.)

13. Nakei (cleanse)."

13-eb

I will check out the various links you have given, thankyou. At the moment I shall try to work my way through the one site and then move on to these, so please don't think I am ungrateful.

I wasn't getting huffy in response to you. This is a continuing dialogue BB and I pick up every now and again and have done so probably for the past few years. It doesn't come up very often, but once in a while it does.

Phew that's a relief

lol.

Am having a bit of trouble with this one BB. My brain associates Judaism with rather a strict lifestyle and a very 'strong' faith, yet you and Dauer are making it sound a bit, dare I say, 'wishy washy'. Concepts do not seem very concrete or am I just misunderstanding you?

Some concepts are more wishy-washy than others, not to say that people's personal beliefs are very variable, but that beliefs from person-to-person are. It may help to understand that when Judaism was first forming in the way it exists today, in the time of the mishna, there were really a lot of Judaisms, and they varied quite a bit. I don't think rabbinic Judaism one out entirely by out-surviving all of them, but also by absorbing a lot of those people over time, even though a lot of those other beliefs eventually faded out. The focus then is on practice and some generally unified ideas about God that leaves more room for flexibility in a person's personal understanding of those ideas. So take the concept of Oneness for example. Some would say that God, being One, is completely separate from the world. When we talk about God's presence, we're not talking about the world. More like the world is a candy wrapping and God is the candy, but the world is also submerged in a vat of chocolate. And from this perspective one could talk about God on a personal level or that God is much more impersonal. One could also say instead that the wrapper is an edible candy. It is God too to some degree. The similarities between the two views that are most important are God's Oneness and that God's truest nature is not accessible to us. Even if the person who sees God as the candy, the vat of chocolate, and the edible wrapper has an experience of all of these things as God and a sublime Oneness, that would still not be an awareness of God's true nature, or the level at which God knows Godself. There is also the concept of the sefirot in kabbalah, which suggests multiplicity within the godhead itself. Today, these are always understood as emanations from God by which God interacts with the world with His true nature beyond them, and sometimes beyond beyond. Some systems of kabbalah work things up very complexly to further disassociate God from what is understood, and that can really be seen as a concerted attempt on their part to maintain the understanding that Godself is unknowable at that most ultimate of levels.

I think one of the things that helped this flexibility to develop is the primary emphasis in Torah and Gemara on action, what is observable. Even looking at the word tzedakah, charity, it has more to do with justice, righting a wrong, than what one feels in their heart. Theology is often transmitted via stories, and stories are much more open to interpretation than dogma. It's also not telling you what to believe in a story. It's hinting at the mechanisms of reality. And a story cannot be understood without the person doing hte understanding, which is where the interpretation and illucidation and flowering over time comes in. Imo it's one of the things that's allowed Judaism to grow so much and change with the times, without getting hung up on things like the world being flat, 7 literal days of creation, an anthropomorphic Deity, etc.

What some more traditional folk would suggest is at least some if not all of these changes aren't really change at all, and were either always there to be found, or always done that way, or according to a particular set of guiding and inflexible principles. My suggestion instead would be that it's happened that way a lot over time, and now we're simply more self-conscious when making change that our own ideas are a part of it. So for people that hold Judaism doesn't change so much, that makes continuing its evolution a lot more difficult.

Within Orthodoxy, you get Rambam's' 13 principles of faith, which were mentioned earlier, that do not become any sort of guiding principle until a ways down the line, and only when understood flexibly, and with some disagreement about them entirely by some other wise guys. Outside of Orthodoxy, some of those are still generally applicable when understood flexibly, and others less so. As I think I said before, it really seems to me like the entire reason to formulate them was to have a response to Islam and Christianity, which are more dogmatic, Jewish peoplehood and commonality being more defined by what we do than what we believe. And that's a bit flexible too, moreso outside of Orthodoxy than within, but with the same general structure for everyone who takes it seriously.

Would a convert be classed as one of the 'chosen'? Sorry I know how this works in Islam but I always associate Jews with 'birthright'.

Yes. There is no difference. Some people understand this by saying that the convert had a Jewish soul to begin with, and the soul just found its way home. I really think that at its root, it's got more to do with the tribal nature of Judaism. When someone converts, they're joining a new people, accepting upon themselves all of their history, everything associated with them. The one thing a convert could not be is a kohein, because that's inherited. But I couldn't be a kohein either. My father isn't a kohein. If he were, I would be automatically. There's a custom in Judaism. Hebrew names are the person's name followed by "son of ____." Converts will sometimes take on the name "son of Avraham" which is to say that they may not be physical descendants, but on a spiritual or metaphysical level they're adopted into the Jewish family.

I think the focus maybe should be placed less on "birthright" than on "covenant." If someone's already in the covenant, then it's their birthright. But if someone's not, they can still be cut into it. And with the way the world is today, everyone's really a Jew-by-choice anyway. It would be very easy for me if I wanted to, to leave Judaism, as others have. After a number of generations of not being Jewish my line would no longer be considered Jewish by the Jewish community. I guess that's a bit like voiding a contract.

Dauer

 

[Muslimwoman]

Absolutely fascinating Dauer, thank you so much.

In the Jewish mind, what was the covenant with G-d that the Jews broke? I only know this from the Islamic perspective.

I am off to do more reading, I shall keep you busy for a while I am afraid.

Salaam

 

[dauer]

In the Jewish mind, what was the covenant with G-d that the Jews broke? I only know this from the Islamic perspective.

A better word might be violated. Broken to me sounds more permanent. It's understood to be an eternal covenant with the Jewish people. I guess my answer to your question would be: at what time? In the Tanach it seems one of the really big problems is avodah zarah, foreign worship/service which is what you'd call idolatry and other things related to it.

I am off to do more reading, I shall keep you busy for a while I am afraid.

lol. That's no problem. This part of the forum is usually pretty quiet. *brushes away some cobwebs*

Dauer

 

[bananabrain]

I know Sinai as the place Moses received the tablets of stone and a great place to go scuba diving these days, beyond that I am a bit lost. What significance does Sinai have for Jewish people, other than the place Moses received the tablets? I don't mean to make that sound trivial.

bear in mind that the whole peninsula is called "the sinai". the mountain generally known as "mt sinai", where the monastery is, is not 100% certain
to actually be the mountain concerned. i slept the night on top of it nearly 20 years ago and got nothing but cold feet, although truth be told my mind probably wasn't on Revelation at the time, but on girls.

Do you mean we definitely worship the same G!D?

yes.

Am having a bit of trouble with this one BB. My brain associates Judaism with rather a strict lifestyle and a very 'strong' faith, yet you and Dauer are making it sound a bit, dare I say, 'wishy washy'. Concepts do not seem very concrete or am I just misunderstanding you?

the short version of what dauer said is that we are very big on orthopraxy, whereas what goes on inside people's heads is far harder to police, so generally we haven't really bothered with that.

Would a convert be classed as one of the 'chosen'? Sorry I know how this works in Islam but I always associate Jews with 'birthright'.

a convert is 100% kosher in every respect. there is only one thing i think they are not allowed to do, which is for a converted woman to marry a kohen (priest) which is because this is a similar status to being divorced, i believe. being jewish is so much of a sociological thing as well as a religious thing that it is the lifestyle that really determines whether you fit in.

This is a continuing dialogue BB and I pick up every now and again and have done so probably for the past few years. It doesn't come up very often, but once in a while it does.

this is because i am a foaming beardy fundamentalist and dauer is a bleeding-heart liberal hippy layabout with some funny ideas. hur hur hur. he does keep me on my toes of course and he is welcome for dinner at mine any time he visits london.

In the Jewish mind, what was the covenant with G!D that the Jews broke? I only know this from the Islamic perspective.

like dauer says, G!D has undertaken to never let the Covenant lapse, although we have failed to fulfil our end of the deal many times. that's part of G!D being All-Merciful and Forgiving of Transgression. the Covenant, however, remains.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[dauer]

this is because i am a foaming beardy fundamentalist and dauer is a bleeding-heart liberal hippy layabout with some funny ideas. hur hur hur. he does keep me on my toes of course and he is welcome for dinner at mine any time he visits london.

lolol.