Destiny

[Tao_Equus]

How so, TE?

Beacause around the world every day there are thousands of cases where intervention would have saved suffering and life.

 

[InLove]

Beacause around the world every day there are thousands of cases where intervention would have saved suffering and life.

Well, like Postmaster was saying, what if it is we who cause the suffering? And if there is a God, is there life beyond this existence? And could the Christ be that intervention that has already taken place?

 

[Postmaster]

Oh, I see... So what do you make of Isaiah, 53: 2 - 12 ?

God granted humans with the ability of prophecy, which is a dodgy art anyhow ask the Jews.

I don't think that denying God has pre-planned everything takes away the truths regarded in Christinity the slightest bit. Because if its false its no longer a truth. Would you say that Christ pre exsisted in heaven with God before he came? An idea that can be comparable to the Buddha who some Buddishts believe lived a privious life the same way in another enviroment and repeated his life here as an example to people. Isaiah was not a Christian does this mean he is going to hell? Had he been alive the time of Christ do you think he would have realised his own prophecy?

 

[Dondi]

I'm kinda with Forrest Gump on this on. I think it's both destiny and freewill, but I think the freewill has boundaries. Well, how could freewill have boundaries, you ask? I like to think that God as Father is in control of the situation, but He has allowed us to run free in the fenced backyard. He set rules to keep us from destroying ourselves, like don't play into the street, but we don't always listen. Nevertheless, in the world scheme of things, He has a certain control over the political landscape toward an ultimate goal. And while He generally allows things to run freely, He will steer the course of history toward the final end. For example, I believe He stopped Hitler and the Axis powers in their tracks because the man got too powerful and had to be brought down (sounds kinda like Lucifer, huh?). Despite the evil that Hitler did, God used the situation to bring about good, in the formation of Israel after the migration of displaced Jews. Not that He approved of six million Jews suffering in the Holocost, He could have gathered them some other way, but He saw fit to enact that particular prophesy in that manner since the opportunity arose. You get what I'm saying? God works in the undercurrents of world events.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Well, like Postmaster was saying, what if it is we who cause the suffering? And if there is a God, is there life beyond this existence? And could the Christ be that intervention that has already taken place?

2000 years ago!! What meaning did that have for the natives of alaska, australia, kamchatka, patagonia? So they can find it now...ok.... but whose version of it is right? I have no doubt that it is the collective 'we' that causes some of it. But what about horrible painful child cancers? Natural disasters and chance accidents that result not in death but years of painful suffering? That these things take place shows that God is not a benevolent compassionate 'person' in the way you are, when you drew your above analogy.

TE

 

[InLove]

Hi—sorry this took so long. Something’s up with my computer. Every time I try to copy a quote, my screen freezes and I have to start all over! (I’ve tried the same post three times, so this time I put it into Word first. Hope it doesn’t come out looking funny.)

2000 years ago!! What meaning did that have for the natives of alaska, australia, kamchatka, patagonia? So they can find it now...ok.... but whose version of it is right? I have no doubt that it is the collective 'we' that causes some of it.

I understand what you are saying. But I truly think that much of the suffering and uncertainty could be alleviated if we didn’t spend so much time arguing over whose version is right. I know there are great big huge chunks of both historical and spiritual truth that have gone missing due to the human ambition to be right or powerful. One reason I know this is because in recent years, I have encountered some of these truths involving my own heritage that had been hidden from not only me, but also from the world—and to a great extent continue to be. Until which time we can see what we do to each other by insisting “we” are right and “they” are wrong, then humankind will continue to heap suffering upon itself. But there is something deep inside of me that tells me the intervention has taken place, we just cannot see it. So, perhaps there will be a time, either for us as individuals or all together or both, when that intervention will become clear—but it may indeed take a different kind of intervention this time. The intervention that causes us to realize all this stuff.

But what about horrible painful child cancers? Natural disasters and chance accidents that result not in death but years of painful suffering? That these things take place shows that God is not a benevolent compassionate 'person' in the way you are, when you drew your above analogy.

I certainly don’t have all the answers, TE. But I do think that if we, the human race, had been paying more attention to what is actually important, rather than on who is right or how to make money, promote ourselves, and be worshipped by others for it, we might have come a lot farther in alleviating a lot of things. Maybe not everything—I just don’t know. There are some folks who believe we choose to suffer from before the time we are born. I suppose that could be one way of looking at it. There are others who might say that the suffering in this world is there so we can look upon it and be moved to do something about it. There are lots of explanations. I don’t think any one in itself is complete, maybe. But there is something when it is all pieced together. Perhaps we are just still missing so many pieces?

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Postmaster]

2000 years ago!! What meaning did that have for the natives of alaska, australia, kamchatka, patagonia?

Non but the sophistication of there civilisation was not comparable to ancient Palestinians or Romans either. What you find is civilisation and religion corresponds in a scary way. By saying this I do not undermine less sophisticated civilisation in any sense but surely advancements since then benefits all today and how about that great drug morphine discovered.

 

[bananabrain]

G!D's perspective is incomprehensible from ours, the same way as we cannot see both sides of a painting at once - it's simply not how our eyes work. G!D, however, can See and Actualise all possible outcomes of all possible combinations at all possible times. imagine looking at someone and seeing them at all possible ages, doing everything they've ever done and being good or evil or both as a result - all at once. it would quite simply blow your circuits. "knowing the future", then, in G!D's terms, is no contradiction, as from G!D's perspective, future and past are one.

judaism suggests that whilst G!D has a Divine Plan for Creation, what is known as "general providence", this is coexistent with private free-will. thus a prophecy would make a prediction, but the free choices that would be made to make this prophecy come true would be just that. this does not mean, of course, that the prophecy could only come true one way, but that this, in hindsight, is how it happened, as a result of choices. for without free will and free choice there can be no sin and no repentance. of course, as i said before, because future, present and past are all One to G!D, there is only the state as G!D perceives it both in the past, present and future. in other words G!D knows what you will do in an hour's time because, from the Divine Perspective, it has always been done. without a healthy appreciation for paradox, this will always be a knotty one.

Take Jonah for example..... He tried the best he could to avoid god... And became annoyed by god...... He was a prophet.... Who had his arm twisted lol to tell the information he was given... He deserve's praise.... (Just trying to get an understanding of your concept.) Isn't all praise and glory to go to god? This isn't something you personally believe in?

what we have here, i suppose, is an example of something happening through free choices despite those free choices being intended to create the opposite effect. at no point did jonah give up his free will - he only started getting up G!D's nose when he questioned the functioning of the system.

G!D granted humans with the ability of prophecy, which is a dodgy art anyhow ask the Jews.

hah, you've got that right.

Beacause around the world every day there are thousands of cases where intervention would have saved suffering and life.

i agree - but why did humans not take this intervention upon themselves? it is like what some people say about the shoah (holocaust) - we shouldn't say "where was G!D?" but rather, "where were people?". you cannot possibly argue that free will has been suspended in these cases. it is simply a rejection of humanity that we should expect G!D to come charging out of the clouds and save us from ourselves. we are an evolved enough species now to know better than this.

I believe He stopped Hitler and the Axis powers in their tracks because the man got too powerful and had to be brought down(sounds kinda like Lucifer, huh?). Despite the evil that Hitler did, G!D used the situation to bring about good, in the formation of Israel after the migration of displaced Jews. Not that He approved of six million Jews suffering in the Holocost, He could have gathered them some other way, but He saw fit to enact that particular prophesy in that manner since the opportunity arose. You get what I'm saying? God works in the undercurrents of world events.

nonsense. it was the combined might of the allied forces. if G!D was not prepared to save the victims of the holocaust, it was because we had the power to do so ourselves - it is to our discredit that we failed to act until it was too late. i actually find it deeply offensive that G!D used the victims of the holocaust to create israel - israel was well on the way to being created well before the second world war; the shoah and its survivors simply brought a "no surrender, no compromise, give one inch and we'll all be back in the ovens" attitude to the middle east.

without the shoah, israel (if not the state thereof) would still be necessary.

without anti-semitism, israel would still be necessary.

if it is G!D's plan, as we believe, that the jews return to zion, then that is what will happen. this may not be the return - we have seen the jewish commonwealth destroyed twice before - but this is what we have decided to do, for better or for worse, at this point. please G!D it should be for good rather than for evil - unfortunately, we can't be 100% sure.

But what about horrible painful child cancers? Natural disasters and chance accidents that result not in death but years of painful suffering? That these things take place shows that G!D is not a benevolent compassionate 'person' in the way you are, when you drew your above analogy.

cancer cannot exist and avoid affecting children - that would disrupt the rules of nature that G!D Established. G!D does not violate the laws of nature except in exceptional circumstances and, i am afraid, even horrible things happening to children is far from exceptional. i am also bound to point out, btw, that you may well bring cases of child cancer and so on to the table, but you cannot bring cases where perhaps the child might have got cancer, but didn't, for some other reason, maybe to do with G!D's larger Divine Plan. the point is that one can't actually tell what G!D is involved in at the level of cause and effect.

But I truly think that much of the suffering and uncertainty could be alleviated if we didn’t spend so much time arguing over whose version is right.

i disagree. we could alleviate the suffering and uncertainty by getting together and removing injustice and ending war and curing cancer and all these things, by *human action* - what are we waiting for? then we could happily continue arguing about the meaning of Texts. perhaps G!D might approve of such a course of action.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Tao_Equus]

Ty for your reply InLove,

As always I am moved by your own sensitive and compassionate aproach. And there are no "but's". I agree with your outlook on many issues and wish the world would listen to the message you speak. Unfortunately so many will not, indeed cannot, because few are capable of holding such good intent in their every waking moment.

I read once somewhere that all politicians are sociopaths. That only sociopaths seek power. Personaly I dont agree with that and think many go into politics for all the right reasons. Unfortunately they dont go far. Mankind has politicised belief to the extent that a genuine wish to know God has become a fringe issue within the churches. I liken your average church member to these politicians that go into it for all the right reasons. Unfortunately they are entering a corrupt institution where though they talk about the message often, they never really talk about it. And never listen to it. So I believe a church/religion to be a poor place to start looking for answers. Like you I think that search must be made within us and in finding faith, put into practice in our every action.

I do not believe Jesus was the son of God anymore than every child ever born was. The Christ message was not a holy one it was a human one. And it subsequently got hijacked by ecclesial politics. As long as we require it to be the message of God it will not be the message of Man. And it is the message of fellowship of man that can save us. That alone. Salvation seeking in the everafter in this sphere is a red herring propogated by the ecclessiatical power structures and serves contrary to its percieved intention. Like the rich of medieval Italy who would cheat and steal and exploit the serfs on their estates but employ a monk to assure their salvation. You cannot petition the Lord with prayer, you can only do that in your every action. And turning up at church of a sunday will not absolve you from the crime of being a shareholder in a company exploiting in the developing world. And this is the nub of it, the churches, mosques and synagogues of the world are full to overspilling with hypocracy. And the leaders love this hypocracy, they feed it by promoting the idea of sin in almost every pleasure. Its a horrible circular sick-logic, one honed to perfection down centuries.

God is the smell of a baby, the sight of the first crocus in spring, the welling of compassion for someone in pain, the beauty of a perfect sunrise, the joy of seeing a dear freind after a long time, the musical babble of a brook, the hug from your lover after a hard day, a clear starry night with shooting stars, the smile of gratitude from the old lady you give your seat to on the bus..... God is in our everyday. He is hard to find in the institutions that would own Him.

TE

 

[Tao_Equus]

Bananabrain,

i am also bound to point out, btw, that you may well bring cases of child cancer and so on to the table, but you cannot bring cases where perhaps the child might have got cancer, but didn't, for some other reason, maybe to do with G!D's larger Divine Plan. the point is that one can't actually tell what G!D is involved in at the level of cause and effect.

True but you cant prove it to be true tha God does intervene either

 

[bananabrain]

And this is the nub of it, the churches, mosques and synagogues of the world are full to overspilling with hypocracy[sic]. And the leaders love this hypocracy, they feed it by promoting the idea of sin in almost every pleasure. Its a horrible circular sick-logic, one honed to perfection down centuries.

the thing is, t_e, is that i feel this is a rhetorical point. i can't speak for mosques and churches, but i don't see this stuff going on in synagogues. what people are concerned about in synagogues is precisely what i was complaining about in my earlier post - that we are not acting enough, but waiting for G!D to sort everything out for us instead of sorting it out for ourselves. your argument seems to me to be a sort of warmed-over C18th anti-clerical straw man which doesn't actually seem to reflect the reality i live in. quite apart from the fact that judaism doesn't see religion as going on in the synagogue, but as something that happens in even the smallest and mundane places and actions of life.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[bananabrain]

True but you cant prove it to be true tha G!D does intervene either

didn't you read what i said? i said that we believe that G!D wants us to sort this stuff out for ourselves (i.e. find a cure for cancer) rather than wait for the Divine Health & Safety Executive. G!D has established natural laws but if we don't like the results from them then it is within our power to attempt to alter the outcome for good. thus we may break the laws of the sabbath to save a life.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Tao_Equus]

didn't you read what i said? i said that we believe that G!D wants us to sort this stuff out for ourselves (i.e. find a cure for cancer) rather than wait for the Divine Health & Safety Executive. G!D has established natural laws but if we don't like the results from them then it is within our power to attempt to alter the outcome for good. thus we may break the laws of the sabbath to save a life.

b'shalom

bananabrain

Yes i did read what you said, and my response was to one part of it not the whole.

I have stated openly to you that my knowledge of Judaism is poor, to the extent that it is almost non-existatant. What I do know tho is that Jewish children attend Jewish schools and are schooled from a very young age in Jewish faith. By your own words they are taught that they are Gods children and that God is the God of Jews and Jews alone. So there is supremacy instilled from the begining. In that it is no different than Christianity or Islam. Whether or not Jews, like yourself, learn that it is in action not in thought that the real compliance with God's plan is excersised in practice powerful Jews dont give a hoot. They care about power and are as corrupt and nepotic as any other group.

TE

PS, I sort of resent being called a warmed up facist. I am anything but.

 

[InLove]

Hi Guys

Just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in....wait, no, that's not right...that's a First Edition tune. What I meant to say is that I just dropped in to say that I have to drop out for a couple of days (gotta go pack). But I'll come check here when I get back, and maybe I can comment some more then. I just wanted you to know I'm not ignoring your observations.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Tao_Equus]

Hi Guys

Just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in....wait, no, that's not right...that's a First Edition tune. What I meant to say is that I just dropped in to say that I have to drop out for a couple of days (gotta go pack). But I'll come check here when I get back, and maybe I can comment some more then. I just wanted you to know I'm not ignoring your observations.

InPeace,
InLove

Ok dear, wherever you are off to I wish you a wonderful time

 

[bananabrain]

i didn't call you any kind of fascist. i did say that you were basically lumping me in with every other "abrahamic" in order to impute to me notions of supremacy that i do not, in fact, hold. if anyone was calling anyone else fascist, it was you to me, at least by implication.

By your own words they are taught that they are G!D's children and that G!D is the G!D of Jews and Jews alone.

eh??? if that is what you have understood, you have seriously, seriously misread what i said. i said that *judaism* is for jews. *G!D*, on the other hand, Is by *definition* G!D for *everyone*, not just us. however, our *way of worshipping* G!D is intended for us alone, in contradistinction to that of islam and christianity, which maintain, to lesser and greater degrees, that their way is the best way for everyone.

all children are G!D's children, just as all humans are made in the Divine Image, as it says in genesis, from which we understand that "whoever saves one life, saves an entire world". and being "schooled from a very young age in jewish faith" means being taught how to *keep the laws*, not about the finer points of theology. furthermore, not all jewish children attend jewish schools. i myself did not. i am intending to send my son to a jewish primary, but if i found that he was being taught supremacism i a) be very surprised and b) would withdraw him immediately, complain to the governors and report it to the papers.

Whether or not Jews, like yourself, learn that it is in action not in thought that the real compliance with G!D's plan is excersised in practice powerful Jews dont give a hoot. They care about power and are as corrupt and nepotic[sic] as any other group.

what exactly is your point here? that jews are not immune to being chauvinistic, greedy and corrupt? or that their religion does not prevent them being so? either way it does not make the religion mistaken unless it is the religion itself that teaches that such behaviour is acceptable - and it doesn't. what you are describing here is people who are, by any stretch of the imagination, committing some pretty major sins which they will have to answer for sooner or later. or have you some specific jews in mind? and are you suggesting that jews are nepotistic? if so, i think i ought to ask for some examples, before i let you get away with some rather unpleasant generalisations. george soros, for example, is about as powerful as jews get. so is alan greenspan. both feel pretty free and liberal about criticising other jews when they want to.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Tao_Equus]

i didn't call you any kind of fascist. i did say that you were basically lumping me in with every other "abrahamic" in order to impute to me notions of supremacy that i do not, in fact, hold. if anyone was calling anyone else fascist, it was you to me, at least by implication.

When did I liken your thoughts to the ideaology of C18? No, not by implication or otherwise. It was you that did so to me.

what exactly is your point here? that jews are not immune to being chauvinistic, greedy and corrupt?

Exactly that.


I think what I say is pretty clear. People are people regardless of their affiliation.

I can easilly compile a list of high profile people who are Jewish. People that excrsise great power in the world, are in effect unaccoutable to anyone and are most definitely corrupt and see nepotism as their right. One in the news at the moment, Paul Wolfowitz, architect of the Iraqi invasion and sacked from the World Bank for.......yes nepotism. Infact looking closely there are an inordinate number of Jews in high power postions in the US, UK and elsewhere given population demographics. I dont claim some semetic conspiracy nor brand all Jews with one mark. But it is undeniable that there is a powerful elite there and many of them, most of them, are Jews. Do I believe this to be because of their religion? No of course I dont. Alan Greenspan may criticise other jews, I dont know, but I know he was the architect of Black Friday and the Dot Com bubble in which joe-punter shareholders were ripped off to the tune of billions. His history leads right back to the Kissinger gang. So if this guy be a hero....well i dont think much of your choices.


TE

 

[Postmaster]

Sometimes its always idiots that make it to material glory before everyone else, regardless of there faith and help through fellowship help can be seen everywhere though, you miss the biggest group Tao, the Anglo.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Sometimes its always idiots that make it to material glory before everyone else, regardless of there faith and help through fellowship help can be seen everywhere though, you miss the biggest group Tao, the Anglo.

I think them far from idiots. They are clever, calculating and manipulative. They have to be to get to the top,

 

[Tao_Equus]

Bananabrain,

This has been stewing with me all night. You clearly associated me with C18, a group of Nazi style anti-Zionist thugs. And then when I challenge you on it you try to turn it round and call me the fascist!! Now in the heat of a debate I might ignore that from most people but not from the Jewish section moderator on these forums.

I make no secret of my dislike of Israeli policy toward the Palestinians. This dislike is on humanitarian grounds and nothing else. I am troubled by the foreign policy of the Republican party leadership in the US, which is disproportionately heavy with Jewish policy makers. Again this is on humanitarian grounds.

I have till date found your postings lucid and informative and where you have argued a point you do so with vigour and logic. But I will not be bullied down with slurs of anti-semitism by you or anyone else because they are simply not true.

If you read back over what I was saying I never at any stage singled out the Jews as a special case. I have no anti-semetic thoughts, let alone agenda and I find that comment of yours an effort of intimidation. I have stated throughout my knowledge of Jewish faith is poor and I appologise for any misconceptions I may have put across. But a man of your intellect should be able to correct my mistakes without such inflamatory slurs.

TE