Corpus Sacramentum

No.

Creatio ex nihilo means the created order is absolutely other than the Trinity. There is no reason whatsoever for God to have anything to do with creation. He could just as easily set it all in motion, and walk away...

If the Trinity was 'in' creation, then the Trinity would be an object of reason, apprehendable by the intellect, and subject to proof ...

But it isn't, it's only by Revelation that we know of the Trinity ... so whether or not is immaterial, because the way the Trinity is immanent in creation is a mystery of the utmost reverence, it is by Grace and a Gift, not by right, nor by nature...

Thomas
 
Thomas said:
No.

Creatio ex nihilo means the created order is absolutely other than the Trinity. There is no reason whatsoever for God to have anything to do with creation. He could just as easily set it all in motion, and walk away...

If the Trinity was 'in' creation, then the Trinity would be an object of reason, apprehendable by the intellect, and subject to proof ...

But it isn't, it's only by Revelation that we know of the Trinity ... so whether or not is immaterial, because the way the Trinity is immanent in creation is a mystery of the utmost reverence, it is by Grace and a Gift, not by right, nor by nature...

Thomas
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Let's see, it is by revelation we know, but constantly by reason we attempt to prove?

But my revelation or understanding is superceded by your revelation or understanding and it is ok for yours to be unprovable by intellect but mine must be...are we on the same page?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by InLove
I don’t know how well this thought fits into the conversation, but when you spoke of the seed and the plant, I thought of the flowers and herbs in my garden. It gives me great hope when I observe them. The perennials are renewed, each in their season. The flowers and leaves from the season before have been shed, but new stalks and blossoms spring forth from the original. Same plant, new body. And the annuals—the seed packets say they only last for a season, but they frequently drop their seeds upon passing, and these also bloom again—same essence, new body. I guess that’s what I was trying to say. And it gives me hope, too.:)

InPeace,
InLove

lunamoth said:
That's why I love my gardens too...put love and work into it and the result is beautiful and rewarding, a pleasure to myself and others. It's not a perfect analogy, nothing is, but it is one I like.

Lol, when my Mom retired she said she was retiring to the three G's: God, garden and golf. Sounds good to me: Love, beauty and recreation.
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I like that. Love, beauty, and recreation. :) I have not played much golf in my lifetime, but I enjoyed dabbling when invited. That's okay, though--I got guitars....;)

InPeace,
InLove
 
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wil said:
Let's see, it is by revelation we know, but constantly by reason we attempt to prove?
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Well I don't think 'prove', rather fathom ... ?

wil said:
But my revelation or understanding is superceded by your revelation or understanding and it is ok for yours to be unprovable by intellect but mine must be...are we on the same page?
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No, not at all. It's not the revelation I question, it's the philosophy.

You show me good and rigorous philosophy, one that can counter the philosophy of the Fathers, for instance, and OK. But so far the New Age has been marked by a sad lack of rigorous thinking — certainly nothing to match Patristic and Scholastic theology — not by a long shot.

What is often misunderstood, is that the Fathers did not sit and spin doctrine to pass the time, nor were they a bunch of egomaniacs bent on world domination, or wrestling control of the hearts and minds of the simple faithful... Christian doctrine was born out of intense struggle to come to terms with the Data of Revelation ...

Remember that by the turn of the century Christ was either:
a - God but not man
b - Man but not God
c - God and man
d - Started man but became God
e - Started man, becoma God, then became man again...

Now which one is it? And it's not enough to say it doesn't matter, because that decision shapes everything.

And an answer is required. It was not enough to say 'whatever floats your boat' — people were going to the lions, people were being impaled on spikes, doused in oil and set alight to provide illumination for a walk in the park, people were being accused of child sacrifice and cannibalism — and the Christians you can find can't even make their minds up about what they're supposed to believe in ... history tells us otherwise ... in the Arian dispute, there were street riots, because it was that important ...

The problem of being sophisticated is its incipient sophistry.

Christianity now means anything anyone wants it to be - effectively, meaningless.

Thomas
 
Thomas said:
What is often misunderstood, is that the Fathers did not sit and spin doctrine to pass the time, nor were they a bunch of egomaniacs bent on world domination, or wrestling control of the hearts and minds of the simple faithful... Christian doctrine was born out of intense struggle to come to terms with the Data of Revelation ...
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lol, well they've done a good job 'the church' and churches own some prime real estate and they've done fairly well in regards to the population as well. Paul was an extraordinary marketer dropping 604 commandments and that troublesome knife requirement....

BTW I believe f. started out with a complete connection to G-d, but born onto earth as a man, and during life increased realization of oneness with all. Just like you...and you...and you...
 
wil said:
lol, well they've done a good job 'the church' and churches own some prime real estate and they've done fairly well in regards to the population as well. Paul was an extraordinary marketer dropping 604 commandments and that troublesome knife requirement....

BTW I believe f. started out with a complete connection to G-d, but born onto earth as a man, and during life increased realization of oneness with all. Just like you...and you...and you...
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604? Not 603?
 
your
Prober said:
You got me now...what are the two?
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When Jesus was asked/tested as to what the most important commandment was he didn't mention any of the ten, but more properly the two of the 613 that are tops in Jewish catechism...

"Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE. and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy might." Deut. vi. 4, 5. "

'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love thy neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD. Leviticus 19:18
 
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