Quote from Bahaullah

Postmaster said:
I know that the objective of Baha'i awareness is to form a narrow view of the faith.
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It is indeed, that's why I have no interest in the site or its author. He's been here you know, and he was using Baha`i posts to hone his arguments against the faith, not in a legitimate way, but merely to post lies upon lies, upon misconceptions to polish his own ego.

Regards,
Scott
 
But regarding this in mind I still think he provides some accurate information.

He leaves reference to contradicitions

The Bahai Awareness Homepage, Bahaullah, Bab, Shoghi, Effendi, Haifa, Acca, Abdul Baha, Islam

The development of the Baha'i faith to me is theologically plausible, in much the same way as Christianity developed there were beta versions of the Baha'i faith i.e. Manichaeism, Freemasons and Sufi and Christianity had it's fair share. To me it's a pattern that shows divine thought unfolding but what I don't really accpet is a fabrication of how religions develope.
 
Hello, Peter!

Postmaster said:
There are contradictions between what Abdul-Baha said and Bahaullah on some things....
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I believe you're mistaken about this. If you think there are such, kindly state what/where so we can discuss this.

Nor am I the least interested in the site you named: not only is it run by an enemy of the Faith whose track record is hardly one of being accurate and reliable (save in a negative sense).

Peace,

Bruce
 
Hi again.

As to capital punishment, it should be noted that there are more nuances to it than most people realize!

In particular, this passage from the Baha'i scriptures is noteworthy:

152. “As to the question regarding the soul of a murderer, and what his punishment would be, the answer given was that the murderer must expiate his crime: that is, if they put the murderer to death, his death is his atonement for his crime, and following the death, God in His justice will impose no second penalty upon him, for divine justice would not allow this.”

(Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, page 179)

Please note that according to the above:

  1. One needs to consider very carefully whether one wants to punish the offender personally or prefers that God punish him because (as the passage makes clear) you can't have it both ways!
  2. And it may in fact be to the criminal's advantage to request capital punishment in order to have a "clean slate" (and presumably a far more positive existence) in the Next Life!
Food for thought, I suggest. . . .

Peace,

Bruce
 
Postmaster said:
... there were beta versions of the Baha'i faith i.e. Manichaeism, Freemasons and Sufi and Christianity had it's fair share.
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On the contrary, the faiths above had nothing to do with the Baha'i Faith (save that Christianity, alone among those on your list, was one of the precursors of the Faith).

Prophecies aside, there is no direct connection between them!

Peace,

Bruce
 
Postmaster said:
But regarding this in mind I still think he provides some accurate information.

He leaves reference to contradicitions

The Bahai Awareness Homepage, Bahaullah, Bab, Shoghi, Effendi, Haifa, Acca, Abdul Baha, Islam

The development of the Baha'i faith to me is theologically plausible, in much the same way as Christianity developed there were beta versions of the Baha'i faith i.e. Manichaeism, Freemasons and Sufi and Christianity had it's fair share. To me it's a pattern that shows divine thought unfolding but what I don't really accpet is a fabrication of how religions develope.
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No accurate information to be had, no more so than the NSDAP newspapers reporting world events in 1944.

One cannot prove or disprove anything if one reasons from the conclusion one desires to reach.

Regards,
Scott
 
It's best thing to do Postmaster is to do your own research and not depend on slanted biased sites.... It's patently irresponsible I would suggest to post a reference to a site that you cannot vouch for.

One of things that is manipulated is contrasting the laws of the Bab Whose dispensation lasted only a few years 1844-1863 with those of Baha'u'llah and any Baha'i will tell you that the reason for this is that Baha'i Faith is a NEW dispensation and that most of the laws of Bayan (revealed bythe Bab) were abrogated by Baha'u'llah.

Attacks against our faith are not that unusual especially on the internet from a few parties but what you will not see are Baha'is attacking other faiths...now this should I think suggest something.. and Abdul-Baha suggested this, if a tree has desirable fruit the children will throw stones at it to get the fruit, otherwise they will leave it alone.

- Art
 
Postmaster said:
...but you should never take it upon yourself to retaliate also working towards forgiving and helping a person who commits such an evil act should be promoted.
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I've read through the thread and hadn't seen any comment about the angle on this comment - the law of the Baha'i Faith is not to be implemented by individuals. This isn't about revenge. Such laws would be administered through institutions. Individuals are in fact to be as forgiving as you hint - there are many statements about how forgiving individuals are supposed to be - but also to note that society cannot run on the forgiveness of individuals. There must also be justice.

Here's a quote about the depth of forgiveness we are to pursue:

"You must manifest complete love and affection toward all mankind. Do not exalt yourselves above others, but consider all as your equals, recognizing them as the servants of one God. Know that God is compassionate toward all; therefore, love all from the depths of your hearts, prefer all religionists before yourselves, be filled with love for every race, and be kind toward the people of all nationalities. Never speak disparagingly of others, but praise without distinction. Pollute not your tongues by speaking evil of another. Recognize your enemies as friends, and consider those who wish you evil as the wishers of good. You must not see evil as evil and then compromise with your opinion, for to treat in a smooth, kindly way one whom you consider evil or an enemy is hypocrisy, and this is not worthy or allowable. You must consider your enemies as your friends, look upon your evil-wishers as your well-wishers and treat them accordingly. Act in such a way that your heart may be free from hatred. Let not your heart be offended with anyone. If some one commits an error and wrong toward you, you must instantly forgive him. Do not complain of others. Refrain from reprimanding them, and if you wish to give admonition or advice, let it be offered in such a way that it will not burden the bearer. Turn all your thoughts toward bringing joy to hearts. Beware! Beware! lest ye offend any heart. Assist the world of humanity as much as possible. Be the source of consolation to every sad one, assist every weak one, be helpful to every indigent one, care for every sick one, be the cause of glorification to every lowly one, and shelter those who are overshadowed by fear.

In brief, let each one of you be as a lamp shining forth with the light of the virtues of the world of humanity. Be trustworthy, sincere, affectionate and replete with chastity. Be illumined, be spiritual, be divine, be glorious, be quickened of God, be a Bahá’í."

But there is the whole question of tolerance... and justice.
 
smkolins said:
But there is the whole question of tolerance... and justice.
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For example from the Justice link .... "It is not advisable to show kindness to a person who is a tyrant, a traitor or a thief because kindness encourages him to become worse and does not awaken him. The more kindness you show to a liar the more he is apt to lie, for he thinks that you know not, while you do know, but extreme kindness keeps you from revealing your knowledge."

Elsewhere it is said:"Let us also bear in mind that the keynote of the Cause of God is not dictatorial authority but humble fellowship, not arbitrary power, but the spirit of frank and loving consultation. Nothing short of the spirit of a true Bahá'í can hope to reconcile the principles of mercy and justice, of freedom and submission, of the sanctity of the right of the individual and of self-surrender, of vigilance, discretion, and prudence on the one hand, and fellowship, candour, and courage on the other."
 
"I've read through the thread and hadn't seen any comment about the angle on this comment - the law of the Baha'i Faith is not to be implemented by individuals. This isn't about revenge. Such laws would be administered through institutions. Individuals are in fact to be as forgiving as you hint - there are many statements about how forgiving individuals are supposed to be - but also to note that society cannot run on the forgiveness of individuals. There must also be justice."

Individuals can only deal in vengeance and forgiveness.

Society must deal with justice and punishment.

The victim of a drivby shooting might practice vengeance by shooting one of his attackers, but he can never practice justice bydoing so.

Society has a greater burden.

Regards,
Scott
 
That phase Bahaullah wrote about burning someone for justice gives the UHJ justification to implement it.

My point is regardless for what reason to suggest such punishment, I think it was irresponsible regarding the nature of his works.

The New Testament only suggests punishments that occur in the afterlife. And people are still disturbed with that.
 
Postmaster said:
That phase Bahaullah wrote about burning someone for justice gives the UHJ justification to implement it.

My point is regardless for what reason to suggest such punishment, I think it was irresponsible regarding the nature of his works.

The New Testament only suggests punishments that occur in the afterlife. And people are still disturbed with that.
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Baha`u'llah assumes the House of Justice will act responsibly. The reason for equating the punishment of death and life imprisonment is to allow the courts to act responsibly. In no case is the death sentence mandatory, it is always mitigated with the phrase (or life in prisonment).

From the Christian viewpoint the death sentence comes into play under the guidelines of "rendering unto Caesar".

Regards,
Scott
 
Popeyesays said:
From the Christian viewpoint the death sentence comes into play under the guidelines of "rendering unto Caesar".

Regards,
Scott
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In much the same way Bahaullah tells people to follow the laws of the land?

Rendering on to Caesar could mean a whole range of duties, from paying Tax, going to War, but to assume it means taking a punishment gracefully I'm not too sure.
 
Postmaster said:
That phase Bahaullah wrote about burning someone for justice gives the UHJ justification to implement it.
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Certainly - that was my point. You objected to it earlier on the basis of a kind of turn the other cheek approach. My point is that for the individual that very much is the standard we are to seek. But institutionally there is a preservation of society that is needed.

Postmaster said:
My point is regardless for what reason to suggest such punishment, I think it was irresponsible regarding the nature of his works.
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Whose works?

Define irresponsible - in the case of both Baha'u'llah and 'Abdul-Baha the claim is that their decisions are the guidance of God. How were they irresponsible?

There is also understanding of degree in the matter.

I found an extended discussion on the whole matter here.

The New Testament only suggests punishments that occur in the afterlife. And people are still disturbed with that.
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"Only"?! It implies eternal punishment and estrangement from God or at least that is the stance most Christians take.
 
Right right, I think I'm grasping the view now Smoklins, as to before I didn't I admit. What Bahaullah actually ment was that if one burns something then by some karamatic justified balance of the universe they have made themselves susceptible to the same crime?
 
Postmaster said:
In much the same way Bahaullah tells people to follow the laws of the land?

Rendering on to Caesar could mean a whole range of duties, from paying Tax, going to War, but to assume it means taking a punishment gracefully I'm not too sure.
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Not in this instance 'taking' a punishment, but society 'giving' the punishment. The criminal by his own act places himself under the authority of the law.

. O SON OF SPIRIT!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

This puts a new light on responsibility to society.

Regards,
Scott
 
What also disturbs me is "If a man were falsely condemned to die, can we not believe Almighty God would compensate him a thousandfold, in the next world, for this human injustice?"

In England where I live capital punishment is illegal, I have grown up to believe the American penal system is wrong. It goes to show for me that a society can take a different approach to criminals and that prescribing death or burning even as an option is wrong. The time Bahaullah wrote it, it might have been valid but I will use the progressive truth card against Bahaullah on this issue. Also to me it shows people do not need guidance on this issue. As we know the Koran is full with social laws and punishments, whereas the bible isn't.
 
Hi, Peter!

Postmaster said:
Rendering on to Caesar could mean a whole range of duties, from paying Tax, going to War, but to assume it means taking a punishment gracefully I'm not too sure.
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Then I refer you back to what I said in post 24 about the interesting fact that in some cases it may well be to the offender's advantage to request such punishment!

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts about this.

Regards,

Bruce
 
Postmaster said:
As we know the Koran is full with social laws and punishments, whereas the bible isn't.
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Which simply goes to show that the earlier religions primarily addressed the individual's spiritual growth, whereas beginning with Islam society also became a central topic, a fact arguably even more the case in the Baha'i Faith to the point where it now ranks equal with individual spirituality!

Best, :)

Bruce
 
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