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I was wondering if a Baha'i could point out the differences between the Sufi faith and the Baha'i faith.
Difference between Sufi faith and the Baha'i faith
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BruceDLimber
Baha'i
Greetings, Peter! 
<I was wondering if a Baha'i could point out the differences between the Sufi and the Baha'i Faiths.
Well, the first and foremost difference is that Sufis are Muslim and part of Islam, and hence follow the Qur'an; whereas Baha'is, while they recognize and respect both Islam and the Qur'an, are members of an independant faith, the Baha'i Faith, and follow the Baha'i scriptures.
The administration and many other social laws differ between Islam and Baha'i.
Sufis are often considered to be mystics. Some Baha'is are as well, but this isn't such a clear-cut tendency with us, and the Baha'i Faith has both mystical and other aspeces.
I hope this helps!
Best regards,
Bruce
<I was wondering if a Baha'i could point out the differences between the Sufi and the Baha'i Faiths.
Well, the first and foremost difference is that Sufis are Muslim and part of Islam, and hence follow the Qur'an; whereas Baha'is, while they recognize and respect both Islam and the Qur'an, are members of an independant faith, the Baha'i Faith, and follow the Baha'i scriptures.
The administration and many other social laws differ between Islam and Baha'i.
Sufis are often considered to be mystics. Some Baha'is are as well, but this isn't such a clear-cut tendency with us, and the Baha'i Faith has both mystical and other aspeces.
I hope this helps!
Best regards,
Bruce
P
Popeyesays
Guest
Sufism is a branch of Islam, but it has many peculiar characteristics that set it apart from the other sects00particularly in the eyes of those other sects.
Technically one does not have to be Muslim to be Sufippthe basic quality of Sufism that sets it apart is the notion that one can enter into an ecstatic state and become one with God.
The picture of the "whirling dervish" using dance to grope for that state of ecstasy is world-wide. This union with God could be pursued through song, poetry, meditation and other means. Sufis, particularly those of the Sulamaniyyih school of Sufism revered Baha`u'llah as one of those individuals who could achieve Oneness with God. Baha`u'llah's Seven Valleys, The Four Valleys, and Ode to the Dove were all revealed by Baha`u'llah while He was in seclusion in the mountains during the early years of His exile to Baghdad.
The issue with Baha`i belief is that no one but the Manifestation is capable of such a union with God, and the rest of mankind must depend upon the Messenger for direct knowledge of God.
To a Baha`i the notion that anyone can achieve the state of union with God, is slightly heretical.
The Sufis have many similarities also with Hassidism in Judaic faith.
Regards,
Scott
Technically one does not have to be Muslim to be Sufippthe basic quality of Sufism that sets it apart is the notion that one can enter into an ecstatic state and become one with God.
The picture of the "whirling dervish" using dance to grope for that state of ecstasy is world-wide. This union with God could be pursued through song, poetry, meditation and other means. Sufis, particularly those of the Sulamaniyyih school of Sufism revered Baha`u'llah as one of those individuals who could achieve Oneness with God. Baha`u'llah's Seven Valleys, The Four Valleys, and Ode to the Dove were all revealed by Baha`u'llah while He was in seclusion in the mountains during the early years of His exile to Baghdad.
The issue with Baha`i belief is that no one but the Manifestation is capable of such a union with God, and the rest of mankind must depend upon the Messenger for direct knowledge of God.
To a Baha`i the notion that anyone can achieve the state of union with God, is slightly heretical.
The Sufis have many similarities also with Hassidism in Judaic faith.
Regards,
Scott
arthra
Baha'i
You will find allusions to Rumi, Saadi and other well known poets in the Baha'i Writings but this does not mean as above that Baha'is are Sufis. As mentioned we don't accept that the soul becomes united with God or becomes God this is a more pantheistic idea. We turn to the Manifestation of God.
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Postmaster
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thanks
I am a Baha'i who has the pleasure of spending a lot of time with the Ruhaniat Sufis who trace their lineage to Hazrat Inayat Khan who was a Persian master musician who grew up in India and is credited with having brought Sufism to the West. There are a lot of wonderful books with quotes from his public speaking abroad.
There are many different branches of Sufis, some who have never even heard of Hazrat Inayat Khan, who worship in different ways and have different traditions. That is one difference in that there is only one Baha'i faith. From what I have learned from the Ruhaniat, they do not think of their sufism as having branched off of Islam, they are Universal Sufis who believe in the unity of religious ideals and that it is all about following the path of the heart. They share with Baha'is the belief that we all worship the same God and are all part of one human family.
To support one another on the path, Sufis choose who will be their Sufi Guide and develop a mentoring relationship with that person who may give them devotional assignments and consultation. That can provide its own challenges as even Rumi apparently had struggles with his teacher/guide but those challenges are seen as part of the learning of the soul and effacement of the ego. In the Baha'i faith, it is incumbent on the individual to continually study the teachings of Baha'u'llah, his son and interpretor Abdul-Baha, and the critical guidance that has come since, including from our democratically elected spiritual assemblies at different levels. Sufis, at least this group that I am most familiar with, put the most value on following the heart and the individual teacher. Baha'is follow their hearts also but if they are Baha'is, their hearts have found Baha'u'llah and that is their highest teacher---they would not and could not entrust their spiritual guidance to another normal human being because they are responsible for implementing as best they can the guidance directly from Baha'u'llah.
Baha'is are people of the Word---striving to be fully obedient to the teachings from the One they believe to be the latest in a great series of universal educators revealing the love and will of God throughout the ages. It is through developing virtue through tests and difficulties as well as cleaving to the teachings of Baha'u'llah with obedience that the soul develops its greatest gems and life of the humankind is revitalized. The laws make up the structure of the path. The Ruhaniat sufis are less interested in obedience and more comfortable with doing what feels right for the individual and the relationship. They honor the spiritual teachings/essence of many religions but are not much interested in laws or belief per say. Baha'is and Sufis (again--the ones I know, I am only a novice in knowing about them so I cannot presume to know about all the other groups) share many values and like Sufism the Baha'i faith is fundamentally mystical in nature.
Baha'u'llah spent a lot of time with the Naqshbandi(sp?) Sufis when he was in the Mountains of Kurdistan and wrote a beautiful book for them ("the 7 valleys and the 4 valleys") in which in the course of illuminating the journey of the soul with such transcendent eloquence as "...make thy soul to shake with a flashing light, and draw thee from the earthly homeland to the first, heavenly abode in the Center of Realities, and lift thee to a plane wherein thou wouldst soar in the air even as thou walkest upon the earth, and move over the water as thou runnest on the land." He also, incidentally, explains himself what is the same--(and mind you, this is merely my opinion from my limited understanding--I am not a scholar nor could I "explain" Baha'u'llah's words. In the Baha'i faith, everyone reads Baha'u'llah's writings for their own understanding--we talk about them and study them but no one preaches about them.) What I understood from "the 7 valleys" in comparing the Sufi path to the Baha'i faith was that many of the experiences of the soul in its quest such as the earnest yearning for God, delighting in His presence, willingness to do what is required and deepening levels of proximity on the journey are the same but Baha'u'llah also explains the difference in what he was teaching--namely how following the current Manifestation of God is a precious aid and safeguard to that path.
Sufis spend a lot of time in deep remembrance of God often chanting and praying. I like to think that if Baha'u'llah had not had a monumental, God given mission to save the world and give humanity the final installment needed to create heaven on earth, he would have just stayed up there with the Sufis in the mountains communing with God because that is the deepest desire of any individual soul. Thankfully for us, though, he did come down from the mountains.
That thought brings me to another difference. Baha'is see themselves as the bearers of information critical for the healing of the entire planet and feel deeply responsible for doing their part. Many things that are optional and just joyfully encouraged by invitation among Sufis or done as groups so they just naturally happen---like chanting a name of God or having interfaith devotionals, are actually required for Baha'is as part of fulfilling Baha'u'llah's blue print for creating a Divine civilization and they are the same across the entire world for Baha'is--not variable depending on area and local leadership.
That leadership point is a big difference. I confess to not really know how someone ends up head of a Sufi organization. Thankfully, the Ruhaniats have a wonderful current head. I hope that those who follow will be as wise, discerning, altruistic, and genuinely affectionate. There is never a question re: who will be the head of the Baha'i Faith because ultimately it will just be Baha'is. There is a lot of structure and mindfulness that goes into yearly spiritual elections that assure a spreading of responsibility and maintenance of humility. They say that in the Bahai faith, you do not find the position--it finds you.
These are some of the comparisons that come to mind from what I have learned. I am sure there are more. Certainly, these spiritual paths are highly compatible---both appreciate friendship whether one joins or not and both value interfaith association and common endeavors. I feel very blessed to be both a Baha'i and a friend of the Ruhaniat Sufis.
There are many different branches of Sufis, some who have never even heard of Hazrat Inayat Khan, who worship in different ways and have different traditions. That is one difference in that there is only one Baha'i faith. From what I have learned from the Ruhaniat, they do not think of their sufism as having branched off of Islam, they are Universal Sufis who believe in the unity of religious ideals and that it is all about following the path of the heart. They share with Baha'is the belief that we all worship the same God and are all part of one human family.
To support one another on the path, Sufis choose who will be their Sufi Guide and develop a mentoring relationship with that person who may give them devotional assignments and consultation. That can provide its own challenges as even Rumi apparently had struggles with his teacher/guide but those challenges are seen as part of the learning of the soul and effacement of the ego. In the Baha'i faith, it is incumbent on the individual to continually study the teachings of Baha'u'llah, his son and interpretor Abdul-Baha, and the critical guidance that has come since, including from our democratically elected spiritual assemblies at different levels. Sufis, at least this group that I am most familiar with, put the most value on following the heart and the individual teacher. Baha'is follow their hearts also but if they are Baha'is, their hearts have found Baha'u'llah and that is their highest teacher---they would not and could not entrust their spiritual guidance to another normal human being because they are responsible for implementing as best they can the guidance directly from Baha'u'llah.
Baha'is are people of the Word---striving to be fully obedient to the teachings from the One they believe to be the latest in a great series of universal educators revealing the love and will of God throughout the ages. It is through developing virtue through tests and difficulties as well as cleaving to the teachings of Baha'u'llah with obedience that the soul develops its greatest gems and life of the humankind is revitalized. The laws make up the structure of the path. The Ruhaniat sufis are less interested in obedience and more comfortable with doing what feels right for the individual and the relationship. They honor the spiritual teachings/essence of many religions but are not much interested in laws or belief per say. Baha'is and Sufis (again--the ones I know, I am only a novice in knowing about them so I cannot presume to know about all the other groups) share many values and like Sufism the Baha'i faith is fundamentally mystical in nature.
Baha'u'llah spent a lot of time with the Naqshbandi(sp?) Sufis when he was in the Mountains of Kurdistan and wrote a beautiful book for them ("the 7 valleys and the 4 valleys") in which in the course of illuminating the journey of the soul with such transcendent eloquence as "...make thy soul to shake with a flashing light, and draw thee from the earthly homeland to the first, heavenly abode in the Center of Realities, and lift thee to a plane wherein thou wouldst soar in the air even as thou walkest upon the earth, and move over the water as thou runnest on the land." He also, incidentally, explains himself what is the same--(and mind you, this is merely my opinion from my limited understanding--I am not a scholar nor could I "explain" Baha'u'llah's words. In the Baha'i faith, everyone reads Baha'u'llah's writings for their own understanding--we talk about them and study them but no one preaches about them.) What I understood from "the 7 valleys" in comparing the Sufi path to the Baha'i faith was that many of the experiences of the soul in its quest such as the earnest yearning for God, delighting in His presence, willingness to do what is required and deepening levels of proximity on the journey are the same but Baha'u'llah also explains the difference in what he was teaching--namely how following the current Manifestation of God is a precious aid and safeguard to that path.
Sufis spend a lot of time in deep remembrance of God often chanting and praying. I like to think that if Baha'u'llah had not had a monumental, God given mission to save the world and give humanity the final installment needed to create heaven on earth, he would have just stayed up there with the Sufis in the mountains communing with God because that is the deepest desire of any individual soul. Thankfully for us, though, he did come down from the mountains.
That thought brings me to another difference. Baha'is see themselves as the bearers of information critical for the healing of the entire planet and feel deeply responsible for doing their part. Many things that are optional and just joyfully encouraged by invitation among Sufis or done as groups so they just naturally happen---like chanting a name of God or having interfaith devotionals, are actually required for Baha'is as part of fulfilling Baha'u'llah's blue print for creating a Divine civilization and they are the same across the entire world for Baha'is--not variable depending on area and local leadership.
That leadership point is a big difference. I confess to not really know how someone ends up head of a Sufi organization. Thankfully, the Ruhaniats have a wonderful current head. I hope that those who follow will be as wise, discerning, altruistic, and genuinely affectionate. There is never a question re: who will be the head of the Baha'i Faith because ultimately it will just be Baha'is. There is a lot of structure and mindfulness that goes into yearly spiritual elections that assure a spreading of responsibility and maintenance of humility. They say that in the Bahai faith, you do not find the position--it finds you.
These are some of the comparisons that come to mind from what I have learned. I am sure there are more. Certainly, these spiritual paths are highly compatible---both appreciate friendship whether one joins or not and both value interfaith association and common endeavors. I feel very blessed to be both a Baha'i and a friend of the Ruhaniat Sufis.
namaste Evanessa and welcome to the board....
Do you dance? Dances of Universal Peace? I don't see it mentioned, but don't know anyone who knows what you know that doesn't....
may peace abide with you
Do you dance? Dances of Universal Peace? I don't see it mentioned, but don't know anyone who knows what you know that doesn't....
may peace abide with you
Rumi is Bahai? I thought Rumi was definitely Sufi....
Greetings Evanessa —
Without in any way wishing to detract from either your post or the reputation of Hazrat Inayat Khan, I do wonder whether 'the West' is something of an overstatement ... I am happier (from a very brief look around the web) with the idea that he was instrumental in bringing Sufism to America — Sufism in the West reaches back beyond Khan's time, but there are, for me, some significant coincidences upon which I'd like to remark.
Before doing so, a couple of historical references. The one is a probably overstated idea that there is a connection between the emergence of Sufism and the Desert Fathers of early Christianity — I think this is a rather tenuous and disputed translation of the word 'sufi' (wool) as a reference to the common garb of those monastic communities.
The other, more intriguing and one which I have not been able to pursue, is the connection between the Sufis and the spiritual and metaphysical teachings of the Romance movement promulgated throughout Europe around the first millennium by the travelling troubadours — whose teachings were embodied in poetry and song expressing the virtues of chivalry and courtly love — another 'universal' movement with anonymous origins, variously attributed to Moslem Arabs (notably through Spain); St Bernard of Clairvaux; Celtic Chivalric Matriarchy; Classical Latin (of Ovid); Judeau-Christian liturgy and hymnody (the Song of Songs?), many troubadours received their training in Latin through the Church, and that they were trained musically by the Church is well-attested; and finally Neoplatonism, again through Arab scholars but notably 'the last great Neoplatonist of the West', Johann Scottus Eriugena (I try to name him whenever I can).
My immediate response to your post however is to highlight, and we cannot emphasise this enough, the point you make, that Sufism points to a 'way' that is universal and by virtue of that fact is somewhat anonymous in its origins, because it arises everywhere where humanity seeks spiritual union and the full integration of what it is to be authentically human, because it is a 'way of the heart'.
As a cradle Catholic I 'wandered off' in my teens and twenties. After much fruitless seeking, the way of the heart was reawakened in me by contact with the Perennial Tradition in the writings of two Sufi Masters, Réne Guenon and Frithjof Schuon, and I found this comment interesting:
Whilst Guénon and Schuon are considered among the founders of the contemporary Perennial Tradition, the direct reawakening of my own Catholicism was through the writings of another Perennialist, the Tibetan Buddhist Marco Pallis. I also had the chance to listen to Another Sufi master, Martin Lings, a year or so before he died.
(I can remember picking up a book of Perennialist essays by all the above, whilst browsing in a bookshop. I put the book down, walked out, and was hit my an instant migraine that increased in discomfort with every step I took. I had to go back and get the book.)
I read somewhere that a modern Sufi had declared "Sufism was once a way without a name, now it is a name without a way." This, I thinks, offers two important insights with regard to authentic Sufi practice.
The first is, as a way without a name, the Sufi tendency is visible within all the great Traditions, and as such the universality of 'the way of the heart' is embodied within those Traditions that claim that love is the way.
The other is that without a concrete Tradition, 'Sufism' is reduced to an intellectualism (a name without a way), and too often, and too readily, a self-serving reflection of the Philosophy of Relativism that shapes a consumer society.
In all Traditions, it is a given that man is called to listen to the Voice of God — the Word — and not his own voice, by which he renders God a reflection of himself, rather than shaping himself according to the Word of God.
Whilst I do not hold with everything the Perennialists say, and certainly not some of their views on Roman Catholicism — they are reflections of the age in which they find themselves — the spiritual luminosity of their writings continue to inspire me.
Rumi, for example, whilst a universalist in the Sufi sense, clothed himself in the Islamic Tradition, something reflected in his writings. Another contemporary Perennialist, Seyyed Hossein Nasr, has written at length on Rumi's adherence to the teachings of the Q'ran.
Seyyed Hossein Nasr relates that the Persain Rumi scholar Hâdî Hâ'irî, has shown in an unpublished work that some 6,000 verses of the Dîwân and the Mathnawî are practically direct translations of Qur'ânic verses into Persian poetry. (Source wiki)
God bless, and God speed on your way.
Thomas
This is news to me, and of great interest.
Without in any way wishing to detract from either your post or the reputation of Hazrat Inayat Khan, I do wonder whether 'the West' is something of an overstatement ... I am happier (from a very brief look around the web) with the idea that he was instrumental in bringing Sufism to America — Sufism in the West reaches back beyond Khan's time, but there are, for me, some significant coincidences upon which I'd like to remark.
Before doing so, a couple of historical references. The one is a probably overstated idea that there is a connection between the emergence of Sufism and the Desert Fathers of early Christianity — I think this is a rather tenuous and disputed translation of the word 'sufi' (wool) as a reference to the common garb of those monastic communities.
The other, more intriguing and one which I have not been able to pursue, is the connection between the Sufis and the spiritual and metaphysical teachings of the Romance movement promulgated throughout Europe around the first millennium by the travelling troubadours — whose teachings were embodied in poetry and song expressing the virtues of chivalry and courtly love — another 'universal' movement with anonymous origins, variously attributed to Moslem Arabs (notably through Spain); St Bernard of Clairvaux; Celtic Chivalric Matriarchy; Classical Latin (of Ovid); Judeau-Christian liturgy and hymnody (the Song of Songs?), many troubadours received their training in Latin through the Church, and that they were trained musically by the Church is well-attested; and finally Neoplatonism, again through Arab scholars but notably 'the last great Neoplatonist of the West', Johann Scottus Eriugena (I try to name him whenever I can).
My immediate response to your post however is to highlight, and we cannot emphasise this enough, the point you make, that Sufism points to a 'way' that is universal and by virtue of that fact is somewhat anonymous in its origins, because it arises everywhere where humanity seeks spiritual union and the full integration of what it is to be authentically human, because it is a 'way of the heart'.
As a cradle Catholic I 'wandered off' in my teens and twenties. After much fruitless seeking, the way of the heart was reawakened in me by contact with the Perennial Tradition in the writings of two Sufi Masters, Réne Guenon and Frithjof Schuon, and I found this comment interesting:
Whilst Guénon and Schuon are considered among the founders of the contemporary Perennial Tradition, the direct reawakening of my own Catholicism was through the writings of another Perennialist, the Tibetan Buddhist Marco Pallis. I also had the chance to listen to Another Sufi master, Martin Lings, a year or so before he died.
(I can remember picking up a book of Perennialist essays by all the above, whilst browsing in a bookshop. I put the book down, walked out, and was hit my an instant migraine that increased in discomfort with every step I took. I had to go back and get the book.)
I read somewhere that a modern Sufi had declared "Sufism was once a way without a name, now it is a name without a way." This, I thinks, offers two important insights with regard to authentic Sufi practice.
The first is, as a way without a name, the Sufi tendency is visible within all the great Traditions, and as such the universality of 'the way of the heart' is embodied within those Traditions that claim that love is the way.
The other is that without a concrete Tradition, 'Sufism' is reduced to an intellectualism (a name without a way), and too often, and too readily, a self-serving reflection of the Philosophy of Relativism that shapes a consumer society.
In all Traditions, it is a given that man is called to listen to the Voice of God — the Word — and not his own voice, by which he renders God a reflection of himself, rather than shaping himself according to the Word of God.
Whilst I do not hold with everything the Perennialists say, and certainly not some of their views on Roman Catholicism — they are reflections of the age in which they find themselves — the spiritual luminosity of their writings continue to inspire me.
Rumi, for example, whilst a universalist in the Sufi sense, clothed himself in the Islamic Tradition, something reflected in his writings. Another contemporary Perennialist, Seyyed Hossein Nasr, has written at length on Rumi's adherence to the teachings of the Q'ran.
Quatrain No 1173.
Seyyed Hossein Nasr relates that the Persain Rumi scholar Hâdî Hâ'irî, has shown in an unpublished work that some 6,000 verses of the Dîwân and the Mathnawî are practically direct translations of Qur'ânic verses into Persian poetry. (Source wiki)
And so you should.
God bless, and God speed on your way.
Thomas
I had heard before that Islam was important to Rumi. I think that anchoring in the Word of God/connection with a revelation, as in Rumi's case with the Koran, can be like tree roots that support the breath and height of mysticism. It was the Baha'i faith that actually led me to discover the Ruhaniat Sufis and without Baha'u'llah's teachings I would not be as ripe to experience the chanting and prayer at the depth I presently enjoy.
Much of what you shared about the history of Sufism just confirmed how little I actually know. It is quite a large subject... I went to a sufipsychology workshop once and was disappointed to discover the total absence of singing but instead they had what they call Tamarkoz which is a kind of spiritual bodily exercise. They follow the teachings of a Sufi lineage that came out of Yemen but many of the people at the event were Persians. That was the first time I learned how little I actually know about Sufism...
Much of what you shared about the history of Sufism just confirmed how little I actually know. It is quite a large subject... I went to a sufipsychology workshop once and was disappointed to discover the total absence of singing but instead they had what they call Tamarkoz which is a kind of spiritual bodily exercise. They follow the teachings of a Sufi lineage that came out of Yemen but many of the people at the event were Persians. That was the first time I learned how little I actually know about Sufism...
May Peace Abide with you also Wil,
Rumi was certainly Sufi but Baha'u'llah quotes a lot of Sufi poetry, including Rumi, in his writings; especially when he was writing for Sufis. He also wrote his own mystical poetry that is reputedly incomparable but since it does not translate well enough to do it justice, you have to read that level of Persian or Arabic to witness it.
So do you do Dances of Universal Peace also?
----Evanessa
Rumi was certainly Sufi but Baha'u'llah quotes a lot of Sufi poetry, including Rumi, in his writings; especially when he was writing for Sufis. He also wrote his own mystical poetry that is reputedly incomparable but since it does not translate well enough to do it justice, you have to read that level of Persian or Arabic to witness it.
So do you do Dances of Universal Peace also?
----Evanessa
I liken it, more and more, to the spirit/body relationship, which is an holistic one, not a dualistic one.
The Perennialists insist that it is absolutely necessary to belong to a Tradition; the universal is formless, and the only access is through the traditional forms.
There are some who try to make out that there is such a thing as 'a universal tradition', a kind of meta-religion, a universal doctrine, which gives one access to the essence and understanding of all religions, and at the same time means one is not beholden to religion as such ... it's a fallacy. Some Perennialists think this, as does contempory Theosophy, I believe.
And what I know hardly scratches the surface. My tradition is Catholicism, and I've hardly scratched the surface of that!
It's a whole world, isn't it?
Sadly my singing tends to set the local dogs howling. In the Latin West, Gregorian Chant is regarded as central to the Liturgical, and I chose the church I attend specifically because they sing the mysteries of the Rite.
I have also stumbled across Corsican Polyphony, which sets the hairs on the back of the neck ...
God bless,
Thomas
There is little that moves me more.
Now I enjoy thoroughly and look forward to my moments of bliss obtained by meditation or contemplation of scripture.
But for me, if one wants to slide into euphoria it is the dances, the chants, the music, and the direction of a good dance leader.
Bless you for what you do.
Sen McGlinn
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I'm impressed by the quality of the answers here.
The same question was asked on Yahoo Answers yesterday, and I posted:
==
Sufism is not a religion, it is the diverse mystic tradition within Islam. "Christian mysticism" is also not a religion, it is an approach to religion.
The Bahai Faith is a religion, which has a strong mystic element. For example, the Bahai house of worship is not called a mosque, but a mashriqu'l-adhkar, the place where dhikr dawns, and dhikr, "the remembrance of God" is the mystic practice of reciting the names of God or another mystic phrase over and over. This indicates that the mystic element of religion has been placed at the heart of the religion, perhaps in the hope of healing the division between the mosque and the khaniqah / tekke / shrine / hussein-khane of the Sufis, between orthodox religion and mystic religion. Note that in the Bahai Faith, the dhikr does not replace the obligatory prayers (salat): rather both have been made obligatory for every believer. That seems to indicate that every Bahai is supposed to be both mystic and orthodox. The obligatory prayers and the dhikr can be recited in the mashriqu'l-adhkar, but this is not a requirement, and in practice most Bahais perform them in their homes, individually.
The same question was asked on Yahoo Answers yesterday, and I posted:
==
Sufism is not a religion, it is the diverse mystic tradition within Islam. "Christian mysticism" is also not a religion, it is an approach to religion.
The Bahai Faith is a religion, which has a strong mystic element. For example, the Bahai house of worship is not called a mosque, but a mashriqu'l-adhkar, the place where dhikr dawns, and dhikr, "the remembrance of God" is the mystic practice of reciting the names of God or another mystic phrase over and over. This indicates that the mystic element of religion has been placed at the heart of the religion, perhaps in the hope of healing the division between the mosque and the khaniqah / tekke / shrine / hussein-khane of the Sufis, between orthodox religion and mystic religion. Note that in the Bahai Faith, the dhikr does not replace the obligatory prayers (salat): rather both have been made obligatory for every believer. That seems to indicate that every Bahai is supposed to be both mystic and orthodox. The obligatory prayers and the dhikr can be recited in the mashriqu'l-adhkar, but this is not a requirement, and in practice most Bahais perform them in their homes, individually.
P
Pranjal_B
Guest
Dear All, Let me tell you, I am not a Bahai. Whether Rumi was Islam or a Bahai, whether Bahaullah was from Islam or Sufi, the difference between Sufis, Bahais, Zens or Yogis. These questions are all futile. By the way you guys are involved in the discussions is something to be admired. The question should be probably, Have we got a taste of the Goal which we seek or rather get entangled in the arrangement or use of words to describe something. If you have got and liked the taste of the Goal you will definitely, sincerely and earnestly set forth on its pursuit. The Person, place, faith etc. which has actually given you the taste of the goal contains the hint for the Route to the goal or the route itself.
Catch the flight rather than walking to the goal. Don't waste the taste because the Sacred is Secret.
When Religion ends Spirituality Starts
When Spirituality ends Reality Starts
When Reality ends, that is true bliss and Peace
When even that ends that is the Goal
Catch the flight rather than walking to the goal. Don't waste the taste because the Sacred is Secret.
When Religion ends Spirituality Starts
When Spirituality ends Reality Starts
When Reality ends, that is true bliss and Peace
When even that ends that is the Goal
arthra
Baha'i
Well where to start... I suppose we could write a few volumes answer your initial question...
"Whether Rumi was Islam or a Bahai,
whether Bahaullah was from Islam or Sufi,
the difference between Sufis, Bahais, Zens or Yogis."
Actually Baha'u'llah revealed "The Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys" when He was in Kurdistan that has many Sufi themes you can read it online at
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/SVFV/
As you learn more about Baha'u'llah you will appreciate that He was not a Sufi Himself but something more... just as some people in the day of Prophet Muhammad thought He was just a poet.
shunyadragon
everything is in pencil
Actually the belief in the soul as uniting with God is more a variation of panentheistic view not pantheism. Pantheism is simply that the physical universe is defined as God.
Simply the Sufis believe that humans can mystically commune directly with God without Revelation and guidance as the revealed Word from God, and Baha'is believe in the necessity of Revelation and the Revealed Word of God to establish the relationship between God and Creation including humanity. Creation and Revelation are part of the same eternal process.
Actually, Sufis are heretical in traditional Islam.
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The difference as I see it is Sufism accepts Islam and Sufism as an expansion of that...., but all Muslims don't accept all Sufism...
I see sufism while mystical, also akin to Bahai thinking, Renewal Judaism, New Thought Christianity... all of which embrace a connection between all religions, all of which support folks of different religions working together, studying together,
Lol....correct on both counts... there is nothing like it when dreamers find other dreamers...I say you're a dreamer, but most likely, not the only one...
and weird when people hate the notion of peace and coexistence so much they try to wake us up...
misery so loves company.