Touchy touchy...

17th Angel

17th Angel

לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות
Messages
9,437
Reaction score
10
Points
0
Location
Have you seen the little piggies crawling in the d
I was watching something over the weekend, I cannot really recall what it was heh.... But, on arrival to a new neighbourhood this family invited around their new neighbours, and most of them were Jews.... Few things I didn't agree with, (apart from them not being at all welcoming, but obviously that doesn't say on a whole about a certain group of people.) The girl of the family when to shake this old guys hand and he flips out and says in a tantrum "I am a rabbi!" And walks off... I mean, what the hell? Why not explain why he was upset over such a common greeting of humans. She then talked to the only Jew there that was willing to actually explain everything to her, saying that a Jew cannot touch any woman but his wife.... (so to my point) Is that true? What about your sister or mother or Daughter? It's not like your slapping her on the behind it's just a handshake.... ;/

Also on the show "Kosher" that means animals are prepared correctly, cooked, slaughtered correctly right? So... How can cookies not be kosher?
 
what was the programme?

Few things I didn't agree with, (apart from them not being at all welcoming, but obviously that doesn't say on a whole about a certain group of people.)
Click to expand...
well, if they were ultra-orthodox, they don't really like mixing with or interacting with non-jews in the first place, not unlike other sorts of fundamentalists, so i wouldn't think that's anything particularly jewish, it's just something about being in an uncomfortable situation. where was this and how were they dressed?

The girl of the family when to shake this old guys hand and he flips out and says in a tantrum "I am a rabbi!" And walks off... I mean, what the hell?
Click to expand...

ok - if you're a strictly observant man, you don't touch anyone of the opposite sex outside your immediate family, ie your mother, your wife or your children. and you don't touch your wife during her period or during seven days afterwards following which she goes to a mikveh (ritual bath) after which normal human contact can resume. during the separation period you can't even pass things to each other let alone sleep in the same bed. it's very strict.

obviously it is therefore out of the question to be kissing, touching or even shaking hands with other women than one's wife or mother. i'm not all that strict about this myself (so i'll kiss or hug women friends hello) although my wife and i do observe the time limits and refrain from touching during relevant periods.

basically, it might feel a bit weird, but basically, for this guy, he wouldn't distinguish between a woman grabbing his hand or grabbing his nadgers, if that makes any sense - so, actually, it is like slapping on the behind; it's just a matter of degree. with that said, he sounds like an idiot. firstly, there is no special prohibition on rabbis touching - i'm just as prohibited as he is. secondly, it is perfectly possible to explain things clearly and understandably without getting annoyed. and most people i know even if you shake hands in error would rather ignore it and explain for future occasions than embarrass the other person - embarrassing someone in public is actually as bad as murder in jewish law, because you're murdering their public persona, as it were. so this chap is obviously rather rude, although if this was all on camera, it would probably be even less comfortable for him.

Also on the show "Kosher" that means animals are prepared correctly, cooked, slaughtered correctly right? So... How can cookies not be kosher?
Click to expand...
basically, it's not just about slaughter, it's about ingredients. so for cookies, for example, a lot of e-numbers and additives (to say nothing of common ingredients such as gelatine or rennet) contain animal products, which would have to be from correctly slaughtered kosher animals. then the animal products would have to be separate from any dairy products. similarly the product would have to be supervised by a kashrut expert to ensure that at no point non-kosher products could enter it, say, at the factory. then there's the matter of plates. if your kitchen isn't kosher, then your plates have previously had all sorts of non-kosher food on and that too is not permitted. with that said, the easiest thing to do is ask in advance. if someone's a real maniac fundie, they'll probably not even want to go in your house (in case you invite them to an orgy or make them watch TV, presumably) but supervised products on disposable plates would be fine. everyone has their own level that they take this to, though - my parents don't keep a kosher kitchen, although they don't have pork or shellfish in the house, but i will eat at theirs (or at my friends) because i trust them to respect me enough to not feed me something i would object to. at the end of the day there is no substitute for politeness and education. to me, however, this whole situation sounds a bit suspicious, as if it were manufactured by the producers to make better TV - if they knew such a situation might arise, they ought to have done their research. when i invite someone to my house, i check their dietary parameters.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
17th Angel said:
Yeah the rabbi was dressed ol skool... Side burns, hat suite you know..
Click to expand...
Is that Hassidic BB?

Kosher...I have a freind who won't eat tofu cheese on a soy burger...as it implies breaking the rules...

the murder aspect of murdering a public persona....thou shalt not...my church proscribes to much of that...and we are known as incredibly liberal...

and takes thou shall not commit adultery as not diluting/adulterating principles or beliefs...

You indicated there are ways to explain the tradition and belief without being rude...I find that often the reaction such as described by the Rabbi often as nothing to do with what happenned but what happenned before. Especially on these TV shows we don't know what they put the man through before the handshake...and what ended up on the cutting room floor...could be he was setup to look like the fool....
 
Wil,

Not always hasidic, haredi. Not all haredim are hasidic. But if you know what you're looking at you can tell affiliation based on the style of clothing, including between diff hasidic groups.
 
Why do modern Jews allow these rabbis to act like racists? It surely doesn't do Judaism any good to allow such ancient prejudices to speak for Jews having to live in the modern world where all races are mixed together.
 
post-abrahamic said:
Why do modern Jews allow these rabbis to act like racists? It surely doesn't do Judaism any good to allow such ancient prejudices to speak for Jews having to live in the modern world where all races are mixed together.
Click to expand...

hey post, do you need a hug, man? you sound really stressed out. if you want to talk, pm me, ok?
 
PostAvrohomish,

what's racism got to do got to do with it? What's racism but a type of xenophobia?

The first question is serious. The second strangely fit and I don't know why... *blinks*

Dauer
 
wil said:
You indicated there are ways to explain the tradition and belief without being rude...I find that often the reaction such as described by the Rabbi often as nothing to do with what happenned but what happenned before. Especially on these TV shows we don't know what they put the man through before the handshake...and what ended up on the cutting room floor...could be he was setup to look like the fool....
Click to expand...


Maybe, it was Hulk Hogan (ex WWE Superstar Wrestler.) His family had moved in and just invited people around for a BBQ... They really went out of their way to get suitable foods and we're very warm and welcoming (or at least what you see.) But, yeah I guess you could be right. (bits of my memory coming back lol...)
 
wi said:
Especially on these TV shows we don't know what they put the man through before the handshake...and what ended up on the cutting room floor...could be he was setup to look like the fool....
Click to expand...
from what i know of how these things work, you get to see the story they want to tell. personally, if this was about hulk hogan, i am astonished that an ultra-orthodox family would even know who he was, let alone agree to participate in a reality TV show about him - they undoubtedly don't even own a TV.

postabrahamic said:
Why do modern Jews allow these rabbis to act like racists?
Click to expand...
leaving apart the fact that it's not about race, but about religion, what exactly do you propose that i do about it? go round their house and lecture them? what makes you think that they would listen to me? i don't even have sidecurls, let alone the right sort of furry hat. they wouldn't listen to me or anyone else; they see the world a particular way and nothing i can say is going to remove their fear (for this is what it really is) and consequent prejudice.

It surely doesn't do Judaism any good to allow such ancient prejudices to speak for Jews having to live in the modern world where all races are mixed together.
Click to expand...
well, i'm certainly sure people like that do people like me no favours - but you could say the same thing about west bank settlers, or, say, robert maxwell - but it would be rather prejudiced to say the least for you to consider their behaviour to reflect on mine. or are you the sort of person that holds every muslim responsible for the behaviour of osama bin laden, or every christian to be responsibile for the behaviour of the church of the creator? besides, these particular sects of jews *don't* live in the modern world. they have no interest in it any more than the amish do - and they're certainly not interested in mixing, socially or otherwise. i am astonished that they were even on this show.

17th Angel said:
They really went out of their way to get suitable foods
Click to expand...
and in the case of most modern jews that would go a long way towards it, but the ultra-orthodox would simply not understand the point of the gesture, seeing as they couldn't even eat in your house without compromising their own standards of observance. i may not agree with it, but i think what we're talking about here is a manufactured clash for televisual effect - which HH as a former WWF star will know all about.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
oh dear. well, i would appreciate the gesture, but i myself certainly wouldn't eat something that had been cooked on a barbecue next to something that wasn't kosher. it's about the degree of separation that's required. what the hogans presumably fail to realise (and it is hard to see how they could be reasonably be expected to know) is that eating is for us a sacramental act, albeit if you're ultra-orthodox, you won't even drink a glass of water without saying a blessing first and the idea of sitting down and sharing a table with people eating non-kosher food is simply unthinkable. you might as well invite them to start wife-swapping. what they might do, of course is have a beer together providing they opened it themselves - but even then, you fall foul of all the rules which are designed to avoid you getting drunk and "intermarrying". of course the stringencies these guys subject themselves to are rather extreme but i have a feeling the hogans would have had a similar problem if they had had next door neighbours who were animal rights activists, fruitarians or indeed jains. there's not really a way round having a meat-based communal meal with people with really strict dietary requirements.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
I know, I know it is a faith and way of life, but seems awfully stuck up and arogant... I mean, I open you a can in an act of friendship, and it would feel to me the opener of the can that I am apparently not good enough nor worthy to open a drink for you or even eat with you..... (Just looking into Judaism....) So kind of new at getting the ropes of your faith.
 
A bunch of us goy mix with some regular non kosher jews at a workshop every year.. the place we rent is at an orthodox retreat center...they provide the food and lodging. The Rabbi is very friendly towards us and we are a bunch of crazy variety artists and street performers. They cook great kosher foods and cater to the needs of the vegans and allergin diets more willingly than anyplace I know.

There is always a group of kids leaving as we arrive and coming in as we are leaving.. all orthodox...wall down the classroom etc.

Tradition is valuable, and it is to be expected when someone challenges it to see a challenge head back...

Now that you added the HH aspect of the situation, your OP seems likely response.
 
BB,

I think you're generalizing the ultra-orthodox just a tad. Not that they aren't a bit insular and xenophobic, or mostly disinterested in ideas other than their own, but there are also ultra-orthodox Jews who outreach instead of cloister. And then there are still others who are really primarily identified as ultra-orthodox because of their minhagim and espouse more progressive ideas, sometimes taking part in more progressive activities.

And I think there are some in those communities who feel that ultra-orthodoxy is the correct form of Judaism and the other stuff is narishkeit (similar though by no means the same as how you feel about Orthodoxy in general) but also feel that it should more to the left a little more and come to terms with itself and the modern world.

When I did jitw a few years back, there were a couple black hats. They took part in trichetzah davennen and I think one of them was one of the joint baalei tefilah for part of one of the services over the shabaton. So I don't think you can always judge a book by its cover. Or, for another example of a guy who doesn't completely fit your definition and is a bit more visible, there's Yonassan Gershom who originally was very involved with Renewal when it was Bnai Or but left the community as it began to distance itself more from Orthodoxy and became a hasid to Nachman.

The Yonassan Gershom Website

He's got some decent faq's on hasidism and reincarnation in Judaism, info on startrek and judaism, and a couple essays about what he liked in renewal that are more critical of its current manifestation. His is one of the better analyses of the kabbalaistic symbology of the b'nai or (rainbow) tallis.

Granted, some of the folks who do outreach stuff can be just as xenophobic, insular, and judgemental of the modern world as the ones who cloister. I've had my fair share of negative experiences with chabadniks and more out-there-in-the-world yeshivish types.

Dauer
 
17th Angel said:
know, I know it is a faith and way of life, but seems awfully stuck up and arrogant...
Click to expand...
oh, i agree. that's certainly how it comes across if you don't know what you're dealing with. and even then, there is plenty of room within the system to act with derech eretz (common courtesy) for the purposes of kiddush haShem (sanctification of the Divine Name through being seen to act in an ethical and moral fashion). unfortunately this tends to take a back seat to people's knee-jerk reactions and this, like i said before, is because people are terribly scared of the modern world which they see as a godless wasteland of depravity which is on some level trying to destroy them. it's something all fundamentalists seem to have in common - can i recommend you a book? karen armstrong's "the battle for G!D", which is a comparative study of fundamentalism in the abrahamic faiths. i can't praise this book enough for all that it contains a certain amount of inaccuracy.

dauer said:
I think you're generalizing the ultra-orthodox just a tad. Not that they aren't a bit insular and xenophobic, or mostly disinterested in ideas other than their own, but there are also ultra-orthodox Jews who outreach instead of cloister.
Click to expand...
oh, i know, but in my experience it is a rare haredi who sees any value in any other way of doing judaism, let alone anything non-jewish. i get on with them, but i have to take them with a pinch of salt and i will object when i hear something i disagree with.

And then there are still others who are really primarily identified as ultra-orthodox because of their minhagim and espouse more progressive ideas, sometimes taking part in more progressive activities.
Click to expand...
well, perhaps, but they are really the exception rather than the rule. it's like reform jews who can get to grips with a talmudic sugiyah, a rare but welcome surprise.

And I think there are some in those communities who feel that ultra-orthodoxy is the correct form of Judaism and the other stuff is narishkeit (similar though by no means the same as how you feel about Orthodoxy in general) but also feel that it should more to the left a little more and come to terms with itself and the modern world.
Click to expand...
harrumph. i don't feel that non-orthodox stuff is narishkeit. i feel it has a lot to teach orthodoxy about social justice and ethics in particular. in the same way that orthodox people go on self-servingly about "Torah judaism", i would like non-orthodox people to fly the flag for "NaKh judaism" - in my religious biodiversity model (which i consider inspired by rav kook) but without feeling that they have to diss the traditionalists; the reverse of course goes without saying. broadly speaking, the ultra-orthodox world looks to the yeshiva world as an ideal and, frankly, i believe this to be a terrible failure of vision. as for the outreach lot, they are, to a man, closet xenophobes in thrall to this monochrome, monotonous pilpul factory whilst paying lip service to the people who are needed to support their lack of engagement with the world. and i would have a lot more time for chasidim (especially chabad) if they didn't subscribe to the soul-structure theology of the baal ha-tanya, of which i cordially disapprove, despite my admiration for the rest of his work. put it this way - i don't judge books by their cover, but i find everyone else seems to and, frankly, i am rarely surprised, which saddens me.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
harrumph. i don't feel that non-orthodox stuff is narishkeit.
Click to expand...

I didn't mean to imply that you do, which is why I said similar though by no means the same. I considered it might strike you the wrong way to add that clause but saw the stimulation of discussion around the matter as something not worth avoiding.

I remember you once saying (and forgive me if I've confused you for someone else) that non-orthodox forms of Judaism are Jewish religion but not Judaism or something similar to that to suggest that while it may be the religious of practices of certain groups of Jewish people it's a rejection of many of the fundamentals of Judaism. Would you say that you feel that Orthodoxy as it exists today (and by that I mean each of the major manifestations of Orthodoxy individually) is as incorrect as the liberal movements?

Dauer
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top