is it not clear that judaism is true?

[Raksha]

Oh, and one last question, I assume that you and your daughter are "good" witches , is that the case ?

Avi,

ABSOLUTELY!!! You shouldn't even need to ask that. I'll have to answer the rest of your questions tomorrow, because I've been on the computer too long already.

Shalom,
Linda

 

[Bandit]

Re: is it not clear that judaism is true?

No it isn't any more clear than the other hebrew religions who also claim to be true.

 

[Bandit]

too true, and arent all the major religions syncretisms, in truth?

Yes. Confusion & contradiction accompany religions institutions very nicely.

 

[Raksha]

I am curious if you are refering to the more traditional movements ? In the Reform movement, you are probably aware that many women Rabbi's are being ordained.

Avi,

YES, I am aware of that!

I just spent a very long time (too long) reading the "Integral Halakhah" thread on the Judaism board. While I'm definitely impressed with the knowledge and sophistication of all the main participants in that discussion, and while I freely admit that I couldn't begin to match any of you, I am NOT exactly in kindergarden and don't appreciate being treated that way. It should have been clear from my earlier posts that the patronizing tone doesn't go over big with me.

YES, I have heard of the Jewish Renewal Movement and I even knew who Reb Zalman was before I read the Integral Halakhah thread. I have never had the privilege of attending one of his seminars and probably don't have the background to get much out of it if I did.

However, I did once attend a series of lectures by Jonathan Omer-Man in the mid-1980s, and I'll never forget it. That was before he was ordained a rabbi. The very first ordination Rabbi Jonathan performed after being ordained himself (by Reb Zalman) was for a woman. I remember how bitterly I wept when I read about it, because that woman wasn't me and could never be me. I have never told anyone that before and I don't even know why I'm saying it now, on a public board no less. Maybe to let you know that this is freakin' serious with me, and it's PERSONAL!

I have come to realize that "on the edge," on the margins of Judaism is where I was meant to be. I have not found a home in any other tradition, although at this point I speak several spiritual "languages" fairly well. But it seems to be my karma to be the eternal outsider. At this point I'm pretty much okay with that, because there is definitely a freedom at the edge that doesn't exist on the inside. And like all other ageing hippie BABY BOOMERS (yeah, BB--I'm thumbing my nose at you too, and with damn good reason) I value freedom very highly, probably more than anything else in the world.

It was people like me who CREATED the Jewish Renewal Movement in the first place by creating the need for it. People who voted with their feet and walked, because they could find no relevance either in the rigidity of Orthodoxy or the materialistic shallowness and superficiality of the Reform movement as it existed at the time. And of course there were thousands of Jewish feminists who walked away in total disgust at the entrenched patriarchy, the fact that Judaism was and in many ways still is "a man's religion."

Of course it was all totally reactive and I'm not claiming otherwise for one minute. But again, that was our role and what we were SUPPOSED to do. I didn't realize that at the time, of course. I acted out of bitterness and alienation, disgust with patriarchy and no patience for incrementalism. I have never claimed otherwise and besides, those are all perfectly valid reasons for walking away. Why would anyone stick with a religion that has become unsatisfying to them on so many levels? And why should they?

And then in 1984 I heard Jonathan Omer-Man say, "It is those who have been 'outside' who will revitalize Judaism." I don't think the term "Jewish Renewal" had even been invented at that point, but I knew immediately that he was right. That was when I finally began to understand that my alienation from Judaism was actually necessary to the greater scheme of things.

By then, for a number of reasons, it was too late for me to think of being ordained, although I suppose I could have if I had really wanted to. But my background was pretty thin and I didn't have the self-discipline for all the remedial work that would have been required. And more important than anything else...I no longer wanted it!

It wasn't a matter of not having a vocation, because I've always had that. And that has always been the biggest source of alienation of all. But I was unwilling to become a ba'al teshuvah in ANY sense because that would have implied that what I had been doing until then was wrong. I absolutely did not think it was wrong...and still don't.

But there's one thing nobody can ever take away from me: I crashed the gates for my daughter!

She can work out HER vocation in whatever way she chooses, and she is doing just exactly that. And I couldn't be more proud of her, or more happy for her. I only wish sometimes I could *BE* her.

--Linda

 

[Bandit]

I am NOT exactly in kindergarden and don't appreciate being treated that way. It should have been clear from my earlier posts that the patronizing tone doesn't go over big with me.

--Linda

that has been my experience also and I have noticed that is how that particular forum/religion has always been, by treating others condescendingly and I do not expect it to ever change. Quite a few others here see it as well, so you are not alone on the matter.

 

[Avi]

However, I did once attend a series of lectures by Jonathan Omer-Man in the mid-1980s, and I'll never forget it. That was before he was ordained a rabbi. The very first ordination Rabbi Jonathan performed after being ordained himself (by Reb Zalman) was for a woman. I remember how bitterly I wept when I read about it, because that woman wasn't me and could never be me. I have never told anyone that before and I don't even know why I'm saying it now, on a public board no less. Maybe to let you know that this is freakin' serious with me, and it's PERSONAL!

Linda, I just looked at Jonathan Omer-Man's blog, it looks interesting, perhaps you could tell us what the parts of his thinking that you like the most. I am interested in learning more about non-traditional areas of Judaism, and this sounds very interesting.

I have come to realize that "on the edge," on the margins of Judaism is where I was meant to be. I have not found a home in any other tradition, although at this point I speak several spiritual "languages" fairly well. But it seems to be my karma to be the eternal outsider. At this point I'm pretty much okay with that, because there is definitely a freedom at the edge that doesn't exist on the inside. And like all other ageing hippie BABY BOOMERS (yeah, BB--I'm thumbing my nose at you too, and with damn good reason) I value freedom very highly, probably more than anything else in the world.

I think many do not fit in the traditional boundaries. I have met Reform Jews who have very atheistic perspectives. I, myself, am looking for a very rationalistic approach and find many contradictions in traditional Judaism.

It was people like me who CREATED the Jewish Renewal Movement in the first place by creating the need for it. People who voted with their feet and walked, because they could find no relevance either in the rigidity of Orthodoxy or the materialistic shallowness and superficiality of the Reform movement as it existed at the time. And of course there were thousands of Jewish feminists who walked away in total disgust at the entrenched patriarchy, the fact that Judaism was and in many ways still is "a man's religion."

I agree that feminism is a very important issue. I certainly welcome women Rabbis and egalitarian services. Are there other issues that you would advocate ?

Of course it was all totally reactive and I'm not claiming otherwise for one minute. But again, that was our role and what we were SUPPOSED to do. I didn't realize that at the time, of course. I acted out of bitterness and alienation, disgust with patriarchy and no patience for incrementalism. I have never claimed otherwise and besides, those are all perfectly valid reasons for walking away. Why would anyone stick with a religion that has become unsatisfying to them on so many levels? And why should they?

People can leave Judaism for any reason. They can start their own denomination. Hasn't that been the history (last 150 years) of Judaism. During that time Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist and now Renewal have come into existance.

And then in 1984 I heard Jonathan Omer-Man say, "It is those who have been 'outside' who will revitalize Judaism." I don't think the term "Jewish Renewal" had even been invented at that point, but I knew immediately that he was right. That was when I finally began to understand that my alienation from Judaism was actually necessary to the greater scheme of things.

I think it is true, revitalization often comes from outside.

By then, for a number of reasons, it was too late for me to think of being ordained, although I suppose I could have if I had really wanted to. But my background was pretty thin and I didn't have the self-discipline for all the remedial work that would have been required. And more important than anything else...I no longer wanted it!

For most of life I "didn't want it". Only during the last few years I have been studying Judaism.

It wasn't a matter of not having a vocation, because I've always had that. And that has always been the biggest source of alienation of all. But I was unwilling to become a ba'al teshuvah in ANY sense because that would have implied that what I had been doing until then was wrong. I absolutely did not think it was wrong...and still don't.

Stick to your beliefs !!

But there's one thing nobody can ever take away from me: I crashed the gates for my daughter!

She can work out HER vocation in whatever way she chooses, and she is doing just exactly that. And I couldn't be more proud of her, or more happy for her. I only wish sometimes I could *BE* her.

I think we all envy our children at some level. Think about all the thinks I would have done differently, if I could do them again. On the other hand, we are pretty lucky to have kids to watch as they grow and become adults.

I just spent a very long time (too long) reading the "Integral Halakhah" thread on the Judaism board. While I'm definitely impressed with the knowledge and sophistication of all the main participants in that discussion, and while I freely admit that I couldn't begin to match any of you, I am NOT exactly in kindergarden and don't appreciate being treated that way. It should have been clear from my earlier posts that the patronizing tone doesn't go over big with me.

I am not sure if you are refering to my question ? I certainly did not mean to speak condescendingly to you. I am not sure about your background that is why I asked the question.

 

[Raksha]

that has been my experience also and I have noticed that is how that particular forum/religion has always been, by treating others condescendingly and I do not expect it to ever change. Quite a few others here see it as well, so you are not alone on the matter.

Bandit,

By "that particular forum/religion" I truly hope you don't mean the Judaism forum and the Jewish religion, which after all is my religion too. It is a tribal religion that evolved into a universalist religion while still retaining its tribal roots. Believe it or not, those tribal roots are still very important--basically because they ARE the roots! Without them Judaism would shrivel up and die the way a grafted tree would die without its rootstock. I hope you can understand this--if not, I guess you'll just have to take my word for it for now.

I never expected to go on that long rant last night, but it was clear to me even while I was writing it that it's a conflict within the tribe and "for the sake of heaven," as we say. As were the personal experiences I was describing. No matter how bitter and raucous and personal they get, the ultimate purpose of this kind of conflict is NOT to condemn Judaism to death as an anachronism but to renew it. What I mean is that it is God's purpose, although the individual parties to the conflict may not always realize that.

But even the most vociferous "insider" critics (or very few of them anyway) are suggesting that the tree is dead and needs to be cut down. Where the arguments can get really animated is over the pruning. What is and what is not dead or diseased wood that needs to be cut out? That's an ongoing source of conflict because it's by no means clear to anyone (let alone everyone).

An actual "self-hating Jew" is a rarity, BTW. Oh, they EXIST, but there aren't all that many of them. Mostly that phrase is a rhetorical grenade some Jews throw at other Jews to stop debate over Israel/Palestine issues. It has been so overused that it's become a cliche. It's a pretty ineffective weapon at this point.

It should have been obvious to Avi from my previous posts that I was quite familiar with the Jewish Renewal Movement. After all, I was THERE at the beginning of it! He had no business asking me a condescending "kindergarten" question like was I aware that there are many female rabbis these days. That is just flat-out patronizing.

When I lurked on the "Integral Halakhah" thread I became even more irritated, because I couldn't help but compare the respect he showed Dauer and bananabrain with the patronizing attitude he showed me. Now I am not suggesting he shouldn't respect them! They are both very knowledgeable and very serious. In their own very different ways, they both care very deeply about the future of Judaism, although obviously I agree with Dauer more often than BB.

But last night I was pretty disgusted with both of them (especially BB) because of their dismissive and even hostile attitude towards "hippies," in other words, *MY* generation of Jewish Baby Boomers. I thought they had one hell of a lot of nerve "critiquing" us and actually passing judgment on us. They NEVER had to confront the obstacles we did and therefore they have no damn business passing judgment on our responses. In fact I can say a very similar thing about them that I said about my daughter last night...

We kicked down the door so that they could walk through it!

They are the beneficiaries of what we did and they don't even seem to realize it, let alone appreciate it! If it were not for us they wouldn't have the range of options/choices within Judaism that they have now. They are of course every bit as free to reject our choices as we were free to reject those of the previous generation. That goes without saying. But they have no business criquing us, or worse yet condemning us.

I really should have posted my gut level reaction on that thread last night: You guys are SO spoiled...and you don't even know it!

--Linda

 

[Avi]

It should have been obvious to Avi from my previous posts that I was quite familiar with the Jewish Renewal Movement. After all, I was THERE at the beginning of it! He had no business asking me a condescending "kindergarten" question like was I aware that there are many female rabbis these days. That is just flat-out patronizing.

When I lurked on the "Integral Halakhah" thread I became even more irritated, because I couldn't help but compare the respect he showed Dauer and bananabrain with the patronizing attitude he showed me. Now I am not suggesting he shouldn't respect them! They are both very knowledgeable and very serious. In their own very different ways, they both care very deeply about the future of Judaism, although obviously I agree with Dauer more often than BB.

Linda, I am very respectful of you and did not attempt to patronize you in any way.

Actually, I rather like your rebellious attitude and think your ideas are refreshing.

You are right, I did not go back an read your earlier posts about Renewal. I only have limited time on this forum, so I sometime have to apologize for some of my mistakes.

I have just started reading Integral Halachah, so I am sure we will have lots of ideas to compare in the coming days.

And by the way, I am a believer in a very "big tent" approach to Judaism. I think all should be invited

that has been my experience also and I have noticed that is how that particular forum/religion has always been, by treating others condescendingly and I do not expect it to ever change. Quite a few others here see it as well, so you are not alone on the matter.

Oh, and Bandit, he is already one of my favorite posters. He says what he means and there is no mistaking that !!


-Avi

 

[Raksha]

I am not sure if you are refering to my question ? I certainly did not mean to speak condescendingly to you. I am not sure about your background that is why I asked the question.

Avi,

I don't know if you meant it or not, but you did speak condescendingly to me. Check out my last post to Bandit, because most of it was really addressed to you.

When women enter the rabbinate (whether welcomed, grudgingly accepted or opposed tooth and nail by the more hidebound traditionalists), like all other rabbis they will inevitably be in the position of being able to shape halakhah according to their own needs and understanding. They are probably doing so already.

From what I've seen, I don't think the men have even started coming to terms with this new reality yet. They still seem to think it's all up to THEM, that they are the ones who determine what is and is not acceptable, on which issues they are willing to bend or "compromise" and which ones are non-negotiable. And why wouldn't they think that? That's how it's been for the last 2000 years or more.

In other words, they still think it's somehow a matter of what they will or will not "allow" women to do, be or believe. They think they have "graciously" (or not so graciously) allowed women to have a vote, but that the all-powerful patriarchy still has the absolute veto power it has always had. If so, they are in for a VERY rude awakening in the near future!

Whether he likes it or not, BB doesn't get to decide either the depth or the duration of my resentment over the shabby treatment of women in Judaism. My response to that is just that--MY response, and he has no control over it, and not a whole lot of input or influence either. He doesn't get to decide whether I ultimately find fulfillment inside the fold or outside it. And neither do you.

--Linda

 

[Raksha]

Actually, I rather like your rebellious attitude and think your ideas are refreshing.

Avi,

THANK YOU!!! Rebelliousness is very much a trademark quality of my aging-hippie generation, and I'm glad to know you consider it refreshing. That almost makes me feel young again. In recent years I've started feeling a little bit motheaten, like maybe the "aging" part of that equation was taking precedence over the "hippie."

You are right, I did not go back an read your earlier posts about Renewal. I only have limited time on this forum, so I sometime have to apologize for some of my mistakes.

No, it's my mistake. I assumed you had read my earlier posts, but for some reason chose to ignore them and treat me like some ignorant newbie or teenager. That's why I accused you of being condescending. I didn't realize you hadn't read them. Of course, that would explain why you seemed unaware of both my age and my background. You still don't know a whole lot about my background because I haven't told you. But as long as you realize now that it's both wider and deeper than the average, that's all I really care about.

--Linda

 

[Avi]

Linda, it may surprise you that I have been exposed to some of the same primitive thinking that you are discussing. I was born a Conservative Jew and about 10 years ago became Reform. One of my Orthodox friends told me that my ideas are "Christian" and asked me if I reject the Oral Torah (as though that is some sort of litmus test for Judaism). He told me he thinks Reform Jews are Christians.

Ironically, I am a member of a Talmud class (Oral Torah) at my Temple on a weekly basis but that does not seem to matter to him. I am never going to be able to satisfy everyone, so I have to believe in my own ideas.

 

[Bandit]

Bandit,

By "that particular forum/religion" I truly hope you don't mean the Judaism forum and the Jewish religion, which after all is my religion too. It is a tribal religion that evolved into a universalist religion while still retaining its tribal roots. Believe it or not, those tribal roots are still very important--basically because they ARE the roots! Without them Judaism would shrivel up and die the way a grafted tree would die without its rootstock. I hope you can understand this--if not, I guess you'll just have to take my word for it for now.

I never expected to go on that long rant last night, but it was clear to me even while I was writing it that it's a conflict within the tribe and "for the sake of heaven," as we say. As were the personal experiences I was describing. No matter how bitter and raucous and personal they get, the ultimate purpose of this kind of conflict is NOT to condemn Judaism to death as an anachronism but to renew it. What I mean is that it is God's purpose, although the individual parties to the conflict may not always realize that.

But even the most vociferous "insider" critics (or very few of them anyway) are suggesting that the tree is dead and needs to be cut down. Where the arguments can get really animated is over the pruning. What is and what is not dead or diseased wood that needs to be cut out? That's an ongoing source of conflict because it's by no means clear to anyone (let alone everyone).

An actual "self-hating Jew" is a rarity, BTW. Oh, they EXIST, but there aren't all that many of them. Mostly that phrase is a rhetorical grenade some Jews throw at other Jews to stop debate over Israel/Palestine issues. It has been so overused that it's become a cliche. It's a pretty ineffective weapon at this point.

It should have been obvious to Avi from my previous posts that I was quite familiar with the Jewish Renewal Movement. After all, I was THERE at the beginning of it! He had no business asking me a condescending "kindergarten" question like was I aware that there are many female rabbis these days. That is just flat-out patronizing.

When I lurked on the "Integral Halakhah" thread I became even more irritated, because I couldn't help but compare the respect he showed Dauer and bananabrain with the patronizing attitude he showed me. Now I am not suggesting he shouldn't respect them! They are both very knowledgeable and very serious. In their own very different ways, they both care very deeply about the future of Judaism, although obviously I agree with Dauer more often than BB.

But last night I was pretty disgusted with both of them (especially BB) because of their dismissive and even hostile attitude towards "hippies," in other words, *MY* generation of Jewish Baby Boomers. I thought they had one hell of a lot of nerve "critiquing" us and actually passing judgment on us. They NEVER had to confront the obstacles we did and therefore they have no damn business passing judgment on our responses. In fact I can say a very similar thing about them that I said about my daughter last night...


They are the beneficiaries of what we did and they don't even seem to realize it, let alone appreciate it! If it were not for us they wouldn't have the range of options/choices within Judaism that they have now. They are of course every bit as free to reject our choices as we were free to reject those of the previous generation. That goes without saying. But they have no business criquing us, or worse yet condemning us.

I really should have posted my gut level reaction on that thread last night: You guys are SO spoiled...and you don't even know it!

--Linda

Yes. That is all exactly what I was talking about. I am glad to see some 'other' views and you will never know how much. I have found that they think no one else knows anything and you have to actually join the religion or else you know nothing about the jewish religion. I have seen the condesending attitude here toward quite a few over the years. !pfft!

We kicked down the door so that they could walk through it!

good for you! I kicked one down as well

Oh, and Bandit, he is already one of my favorite posters. He says what he means and there is no mistaking that !!


-Avi

You have never come across rude to me like the other jews here. What is nice about when we talk is, neither of us are trying to corner each other into some stupid debate over a disagreement, which opens up a lot of room to have quality discussions. You might be one of my favorites too!!

 

[bananabrain]

The part about going "outside the camp" to the sages of other traditions in order to have the tumah removed is a new one on me, but it definitely rings true.

it's a bold and imaginative statement, but i would be inclined to avoid attributing it to the shoah entirely, partly because i would struggle to say that, even allowing for the uniquely horrific nature of the shoah, we were not already defiled by the dead by the hadrianic persecutions, the crusades, the expulsions from europe and spain and the chmielmnicki massacres, for instance.

It doesn't matter who you are or how pure your intentions. If you're a Jewish male, I'd always tend to suspect you of sugar-coated sexism and write off anything you had to say on the subject.

well, it's nice that you're coming at it with an open mind and that i'm not just going to be dismissed for being a dreadful patriarchal sexist male.

I'm thinking that tumah is closely connected (or maybe identical) with PTSD, and specifically with the changes that come about in the person's energy field as a result of trauma. AND...it can be passed down through the generations. There have been many studies done and books written on the children of Holocaust survivors, and I believe even their grandchildren. I haven't read any of the books but I have read a few articles, and it's known that their psychology is very different from the general population.

as the husband of the daughter of a survivor, i would say, empirically, that this may well be correct and that the vocabulary of taharah and tumah is uniquely suited to discussing this very difficult issue. of course, without my wife's active engagement, we would have been unable to observe these mitzvot within our relationship; but the commitment to finding it "meaningful" had to come from her rather than me.

Their main interest is in uncovering and reclaiming the roots of pre-patriarchal Judaism.

and, unfortunately, the assumptions that underpin this interest make it extremely difficult to maintain any kind of active engagement with living judaism as it is.

Syncretism doesn't necessarily equal superficiality.

well, perhaps not, but i've not so far observed it to be a sustainable religious position, probably because it doesn't require any tension with the surrounding society but rather with a chimeric "other" of "patriarchal judaism", which has been, understandably, cut off as good for nothing. one is bound to wonder what is the point of calling it "judaism" at all, if it retains nothing recognisably jewish. and if it results in the attempted resurrection of what would be considered "idolatrous practices", i cannot see how it can retain even the label.

And like all other ageing hippie BABY BOOMERS (yeah, BB--I'm thumbing my nose at you too, and with damn good reason) I value freedom very highly, probably more than anything else in the world.

well, you go ahead and value it, i'm not stopping you nor would i try. i value it too, but i also value the ties that bind. even sandals sometimes require straps, or they'll end up falling off. i note, however, that the baby boomers' freedom has come at a price which their children and grandchildren will be paying for a long time after the generation has passed away.

Of course it was all totally reactive and I'm not claiming otherwise for one minute. But again, that was our role and what we were SUPPOSED to do. I didn't realize that at the time, of course. I acted out of bitterness and alienation, disgust with patriarchy and no patience for incrementalism. I have never claimed otherwise and besides, those are all perfectly valid reasons for walking away. Why would anyone stick with a religion that has become unsatisfying to them on so many levels? And why should they?

i couldn't agree more.

"It is those who have been 'outside' who will revitalize Judaism."

i think i definitely agree with this, but it will not be quite as simple as you seem to think. just as a personal note, i myself found something "outside" that i yearned to find "inside" and i had never found. it was there, as it happened, i just didn't know where to look for it and i hadn't realised i needed to look. but when i did and started looking, there it was. however, i do know something about change in complex systems and make no mistake, this is a change problem. i would encourage you to seek out watts and wacker's model of the "devox", from the book "the deviant's advantage". it outlines the reasons why "those who have been outside" never change things as much as they think they're going to, because in order for the change to take place it has to take on board the priorities of those who are not on the outside; inevitably, this means some measure of dilution and accusations of "inauthenticity" or "selling out". take the case of malcolm x: his message became far more sustainable and communicable once he had abandoned the fringe theology of the "nation of islam". it is the reason that mandela was able to function effectively as a president - he was able to transcend the things that had made him a figurehead. indeed, if he had not, he would have failed as a change agent - contrast the case of yasser arafat.

But I was unwilling to become a ba'al teshuvah in ANY sense because that would have implied that what I had been doing until then was wrong. I absolutely did not think it was wrong...and still don't.

interestingly, linda, that is the same reason i reject the label when it is applied to myself.

I think many do not fit in the traditional boundaries. I have met Reform Jews who have very atheistic perspectives. I, myself, am looking for a very rationalistic approach and find many contradictions in traditional Judaism.

well, precisely. i myself am met with constant surprise because i don't act, behave, or think in the way that others expect mystically-inclined neo-traditionalists with a commitment to strict observance to behave.

I agree that feminism is a very important issue. I certainly welcome women Rabbis and egalitarian services. Are there other issues that you would advocate?

how about a de-emphasis on the importance of rabbis, shuls and communal prayer as highly irrelevant and indeed counter-productive, when we'd be far better upskilling and improving our personal knowledge, education and commitment?

Stick to your beliefs !!

question your beliefs!! (the sticked-to belief becomes dogma, dontcherknow)

It is a tribal religion that evolved into a universalist religion while still retaining its tribal roots. Believe it or not, those tribal roots are still very important--basically because they ARE the roots! Without them Judaism would shrivel up and die the way a grafted tree would die without its rootstock.

oh, i agree totally. i just don't think we agree about what the rootstock actually consists of.

No matter how bitter and raucous and personal they get, the ultimate purpose of this kind of conflict is NOT to condemn Judaism to death as an anachronism but to renew it.

a point which our friend mr bandit would do well to note.

But last night I was pretty disgusted with both of them (especially BB) because of their dismissive and even hostile attitude towards "hippies," in other words, *MY* generation of Jewish Baby Boomers. I thought they had one hell of a lot of nerve "critiquing" us and actually passing judgment on us.

oh, really? you think you should be immune from criticism? how typical.

They NEVER had to confront the obstacles we did and therefore they have no damn business passing judgment on our responses.

we have every damn business, because we are now confronting the obstacles that you ignored, botched solutions to, or created, plus a whole other set of obstacles that you didn't have to confront and now have a vested interest in preserving as the status quo.

In fact I can say a very similar thing about them that I said about my daughter last night...We kicked down the door so that they could walk through it!

quite. and now we are being presented with the bill for fixing and re-painting the door, because we realise what it was used for.

They are the beneficiaries of what we did and they don't even seem to realize it, let alone appreciate it!

that is, if i may say, a typical response from one of the most over-indulged generations in history. none of you lot ever had to cope with, say, the consequences of the growth of your retirement portfolios, which meant that we couldn't afford housing, or cleaning up the accounting mess from the kibbutz movement.

If it were not for us they wouldn't have the range of options/choices within Judaism that they have now.

which, i believe, is what your parents' generation said to you when they were assimilating.

You guys are SO spoiled...and you don't even know it!

oh, pot, kettle. some of us would be rattling the cage whether you had rattled it or not.

Actually, I rather like your rebellious attitude and think your ideas are refreshing.

yes, although this more-rebellious-than-thou-you-should-have-been-there-in-the-sixties attitude can get distinctly tedious when unaccompanied by workable solutions.

When women enter the rabbinate (whether welcomed, grudgingly accepted or opposed tooth and nail by the more hidebound traditionalists), like all other rabbis they will inevitably be in the position of being able to shape halakhah according to their own needs and understanding. They are probably doing so already.

indeed they are and not before time. the problem is that they're trying to do it via the rabbinate when, in fact, the rabbinate is actually more or less irrelevant to the change.

From what I've seen, I don't think the men have even started coming to terms with this new reality yet. They still seem to think it's all up to THEM, that they are the ones who determine what is and is not acceptable, on which issues they are willing to bend or "compromise" and which ones are non-negotiable. And why wouldn't they think that? That's how it's been for the last 2000 years or more.

i think that's the rabbinate you're talking about again.

Whether he likes it or not, BB doesn't get to decide either the depth or the duration of my resentment over the shabby treatment of women in Judaism.

i'm not suggesting i should. again, you're projecting. stop attacking me - i'm not your enemy.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Avi]

mystically-inclined neo-traditionalists with a commitment to strict observance.

BB, interesting way of describing yourself. I did not realize you were mystically inclined. Does that mean you are a Kabbalist ? interested in Chassidism ?

how about a de-emphasis on the importance of rabbis, shuls and communal prayer as highly irrelevant and indeed counter-productive, when we'd be far better upskilling and improving our personal knowledge, education and commitment?

I like these ideas. We might discuss de-emphasis of the importance of Rabbis in the future. I think there is also a flip side to this idea. Sometimes the really innovative ideas come from a small group or a single leader, perhaps a single great Rabbi ?

we have every damn business, because we are now confronting the obstacles that you ignored, botched solutions to, or created, plus a whole other set of obstacles that you didn't have to confront and now have a vested interest in preserving as the status quo.


quite. and now we are being presented with the bill for fixing and re-painting the door, because we realise what it was used for.


that is, if i may say, a typical response from one of the most over-indulged generations in history. none of you lot ever had to cope with, say, the consequences of the growth of your retirement portfolios, which meant that we couldn't afford housing, or cleaning up the accounting mess from the kibbutz movement.

I am also a child of the '60s. But in recent years I have become pretty good at accepting criticism (perhaps because I receive it so frequently - since I've had kids). Sure my generation has made lots of mistakes. I love learning what they are.

Oh, yes, and I can also give you many of examples of shortcomings of gen X, Y and whatever letter we are on now . There is no perfect generation.

Kids from the '60s actually believed that we could contribute to what would become a better world. I think some of that spirit has been lost in recent years. The run up of the stock market in the 90's and 00's has led to a lot of materialism.

 

[bananabrain]

I did not realize you were mystically inclined. Does that mean you are a Kabbalist ? interested in Chassidism ?

my world-view is a kabbalistic one. i would not describe myself as a "kabbalist", much less a "mequbal", although i have studied with people who have studied with mequbalim. i am a student of the various kabbalistic traditions, the history of kabbalah and i am a practitioner of various kabbalistic disciplines both in terms of the mystical substratum of everyday jewish practice and its practical application in wider life - everything from interpersonal relationships to business challenges. i also lecture a little from time to time and do a bit of writing, mentoring and teaching. it is the mystical dimension that informs both my view of klal yisrael as a biodiverse system and my points of engagement with interfaith dialogue.

as for hasidism, i find certain aspects of it interesting, particularly the idea of personal guides, also the practical application of lurianic kabbalah as taught in, for example, the tanya. i also find some of their techniques interesting and valuable and they still have had their modern masters such as rav kook and the ba'al sulam. however, as a sephardi it is not a road that interests me other than comparative and theoretical terms, it is far too culturally specific to polish and russian ashkenazim and i can't cope with the accents, the hashkafa, the food or the guru-worship aspect which has shown its decline in the furore over the supposed messiahship of rav schneersohn. i am far more interested in the other schools, particularly the abulafian, geronese, castilian and provençal circles, the safed schools of the ari and the remak and more particularly the more recent work by such luminaries as the ben ish hai.

We might discuss de-emphasis of the importance of Rabbis in the future. I think there is also a flip side to this idea. Sometimes the really innovative ideas come from a small group or a single leader, perhaps a single great Rabbi?

i think that's an interesting discussion. perhaps we should start it in the judaism area - one on the "tzadik ha-dor". sometimes the tzadik might be a group, i suppose. but i would certainly suspect that in terms of influence reb zalman would have a fair bit of competition from adin steinsaltz, nosson scherman, rav scheersohn, rav twersky, rav soloveitchik or rav kedourie - and that's before you get into the haredi/yeshivish/hasidic world where you'd have rav schach, rav auerbach, the satmarer rav or any of the other luminaries of the black-hat community, or indeed further to the left where you might be looking at louis jacobs, michael lerner or indeed john rayner of the UK liberals....

anyway, here's the current contenders list from the haredi world:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadol

I am also a child of the '60s. But in recent years I have become pretty good at accepting criticism (perhaps because I receive it so frequently - since I've had kids). Sure my generation has made lots of mistakes. I love learning what they are.

well, you don't come across as being 100% convinced of your own rightness and moral rectitude, which is the sort of thing that demands a wedgie at least - i would hope i don't either, but unfortunately that cannot be said of everyone.

Oh, yes, and I can also give you many of examples of shortcomings of gen X, Y and whatever letter we are on now . There is no perfect generation.

oh, absolutely. couldn't agree more. my generation, for example, is busily re-fighting the mistakes of previous generations, only with better technology and improved communications.

Kids from the '60s actually believed that we could contribute to what would become a better world. I think some of that spirit has been lost in recent years. The run up of the stock market in the 90's and 00's has led to a lot of materialism.

i can only point out that the main beneficiaries of that stock market were the asset portfolios of the baby boomers, who are looking to take a comfortable retirement and leave us to clear up the environment.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Raksha]

Quote:
If it were not for us they wouldn't have the range of options/choices within Judaism that they have now.
which, i believe, is what your parents' generation said to you when they were assimilating.

BB,

Yup, that's exactly what they said to us, and furthermore...they were right!

My generation was the beneficiary of a number of earlier trends, including our parents' assimilationist tendencies. Naturally we didn't see it that way when we were growing up. Each generation has its own particular set of conflicts and challenges bequeathed to it by the previous generation, and also its own particular set of advantages that might NOT be inherited by the next generation. It actually follows a somewhat regular pattern--I believe it's a cycle of four generations, and then the pattern repeats. I wish I could remember the name of the website where I was reading about this awhile back. It's very interesting the way the cycle repeats.

Anyway, our parents' generation worked pretty hard at assimilation, continuing a tendency already begun by THEIR parents. The idea was to become less visibly "Jewish" because that would (1) keep us safe from anti-Semitism if we adopted a protective gentile coloration, and (2) enable us to capitalize on the social, financial and educational resources they worked so hard to provide for us.

Unfortunately, we were also the first generation that had to come to terms with the Holocaust, even here in America where we were for the most part protected from the worst of the trauma. But as Jews we still shared in the collective trauma...the tumah. We learned that Germany was full of assimilated Jews who had NOT been protected by their assimilationism, because it was their Jewish blood itself that painted a target on their backs and condemned them to death. Even being one-quarter Jewish was enough get a person labeled "a Jew" in Hitler's Germany.

So what good was the alleged protective coloration of assimilation if it didn't actually protect us? After all, we weren't freakin' Marranos, or Conversos if you prefer. That's the last time (as far as I know) that hiding one's Jewishness had some actual protective value.

Another reason we hated our parents' assimilationism is because it looked conformist (and all card-carrying Boomers despise conformity on generally principles) and most of all it looked cowardly. That's what we really hated more than anything.

Back to the Holocaust and its tumah again: What was seared into our consciousness was the image of millions of Jews going to their deaths passively, like lambs to the slaughter. We couldn't stand that. We could not deal with that. We would ask ourselves what we would do in the same position. We tried to tell ourselves that we'd find some way to fight for our lives, that we'd resist somehow. That if nothing else we'd take a few of THEM with us. But there was no way we could really know for sure because, of course, we had never been there.

Just the existence of Israel and the IDF went a long way towards restoring what we perceived as our lost honor. With very few exceptions, we were ALL passionate Zionists. We would not even have understood the now-common assertion that "I'm not anti-Semitic but I'm anti-Zionist." Even now, I have a very hard time with that one. I understand the reasons for it but not a whole lot of sympathy with it. To us, anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism were one and the same.

As for believing that Israel could actually do anything WRONG, could engage in what can reasonably be perceived as genocide against another people? That possibility had not yet occurred to us in our worst nightmares. So I suppose in some ways you could say it was an age of innocence. <sigh>

I realize this is very incomplete (even though it's long) but I wanted to let you know I read your post. I'll try to address some of the other points you raised another time.

Shalom,
Linda

 

[Avi]

my world-view is a kabbalistic one. i would not describe myself as a "kabbalist", much less a "mequbal", although i have studied with people who have studied with mequbalim. i am a student of the various kabbalistic traditions, the history of kabbalah and i am a practitioner of various kabbalistic disciplines both in terms of the mystical substratum of everyday jewish practice and its practical application in wider life - everything from interpersonal relationships to business challenges. i also lecture a little from time to time and do a bit of writing, mentoring and teaching. it is the mystical dimension that informs both my view of klal yisrael as a biodiverse system and my points of engagement with interfaith dialogue.

That is very interesting, BB. What has gained my interest in Judaism the last few years is more on the rationalist side. I have become more interested in history, ethics and morals issues. However, I think there are other aspects of Judaism which connect with the spiritual side and perhaps the mystical side as well. I think music is an example of this.

as for hasidism, i find certain aspects of it interesting, particularly the idea of personal guides, also the practical application of lurianic kabbalah as taught in, for example, the tanya. i also find some of their techniques interesting and valuable and they still have had their modern masters such as rav kook and the ba'al sulam. however, as a sephardi it is not a road that interests me other than comparative and theoretical terms, it is far too culturally specific to polish and russian ashkenazim and i can't cope with the accents, the hashkafa, the food or the guru-worship aspect which has shown its decline in the furore over the supposed messiahship of rav schneersohn. i am far more interested in the other schools, particularly the abulafian, geronese, castilian and provençal circles, the safed schools of the ari and the remak and more particularly the more recent work by such luminaries as the ben ish hai.

What I have read about R. Luria and R. Kook look very interesting. I am just starting my summer reading so I may take a look at some of their work as well.

I am aware of the remarkable history of the Schneershon’s and their work with Chassidism. Do you think their contributions are on the same level as the other two Rabbis you mentioned ? Messiahship of Scheersohn, I have heard a little about this issue, it sounds like it appeals to same group that might support the Third Temple, what do you think ?

i think that's an interesting discussion. perhaps we should start it in the judaism area - one on the "tzadik ha-dor". sometimes the tzadik might be a group, i suppose. but i would certainly suspect that in terms of influence reb zalman would have a fair bit of competition from adin steinsaltz, nosson scherman, rav scheersohn, rav twersky, rav soloveitchik or rav kedourie - and that's before you get into the haredi/yeshivish/hasidic world where you'd have rav schach, rav auerbach, the satmarer rav or any of the other luminaries of the black-hat community, or indeed further to the left where you might be looking at louis jacobs, michael lerner or indeed john rayner of the UK liberals....

I think I mentioned earlier, I have read some Soloveitchik and the Talmud we use in our class is Steinsaltz, but I will look at the others you mentioned further. Soloveitchik had some very novel ideas with respect to a First and Second Adam.

anyway, here's the current contenders list from the haredi world:

Gadol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quite a list, Soloveitchik jumps out again. Are there others on this list that you like ?