Eschatology and Islam

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Here's one more for the road...


Satan Bound for 1,000 years, Koran: (7:11-18, 38:75-85, 78:20-25)

Satan Bound for 1,000 years, Book of Revelation: (20:2-10)

Satan Bound for 1,000 years, Koran

And We had created you, then We pictured/formed you, then We said to the angels: "Prostrate to Adam." So they prostrated except Satan, was not from the prostrating. He (Allah) said: "What prevented/stopped/forbid you, that you not prostrate when/if I ordered/commanded you?" He (the devil) said: "I am better than him, You created me from fire, and You created him from mud/clay." He (Allah) said: "So drop/reduce/decline from it, so (it) was not to be for you that you be arrogant in it, so get out/emerge, that you are from the subservient/humiliated/lowly." He (the devil) said: "Give me time/delay me to a day they be sent/resurrected/revived." He (Allah) said: "That you are from the given time/delayed." He (the devil) said: "So with what you misguided/enticed me, I will sit/remain for them (in) Your straight/direct road/way." "Then I will come to them from between their hands, and from behind them, and from/of/on their rights, and from/of/on their lefts, and You (will) not find most of them thankful/grateful." He (Allah) said: "Get out/emerge from it expelled/degraded, expelled/driven away, whom followed you from them, I will fill Hell from you all/all together." (7:11-18)

He said: "You Satan, what prevented/prohibited you that you prostrate to what I created with My hands, did you become arrogant, or you were from the high and mighty?" He said: "I am better than him, You created me from fire and You created him from mud/clay." He said: "So get out/emerge from it, so that you are cursed/expelled." "And that on you (is) My curse/torture/expulsion to the Judgment Day/Resurrection Day." He said: "My Lord so give me time/delay me to a day/time they be sent/resurrected/revived." He said: "So that you are from the given time/delayed." "To day/time (of) the time, the known." He said: "So with Your glory/might, I will misguide/lure them all/all together." "Except Your worshippers/slaves from them, the faithful/devoted. He said: "So the truth and the truth I say:" "I will fill Hell from you and from who followed you from them all/all together." (38:75-85)

And the mountains were made to move, so it was/became a mirage. That truly Hell was/is an observatory/ambuscade. For the tyrants a return. Remaining/waiting in it long periods of time/centuries. They do not taste/experience in it cold/cool and nor a drink. Except hot water/sweat and decayed/rotten. (78:20-25)
 
Satan Bound for 1,000 years, Book of Revelation


And he laid hold of the dragon, the old serpent who is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and threw him into the abyss, and shut him up, and sealed over him, that he should not still lead astray the nations, until the thousand years are fulfilled. And after these things, he must be set loose a little time. And I saw thrones, and they sat on them. And judgment was given to them, and the souls of the ones having been beheaded because of the witness of Jesus, and because of the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor its image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one having part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years. And whenever the thousand years are ended, Satan will be set loose out of his prison, and he will go to mislead the nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to assemble them in war, whose number is as the sand of the sea. And they went up over the breadth of the land and encircled the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. And fire from God came down out of Heaven and burned them down. And the Devil leading them astray was thrown into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were. And they were tormented day and night to the ages of the ages. (Rev 20:2-10)


Summary:

1) Who rebelled?...Revelation, Satan…Koran, Satan
2) What was Satan’s punishment for rebelling?...Revelation, bound and sealed in the abyss…Koran, time/delayed
3) How long will this last?...Revelation, 1,000 years…Koran, centuries, the known time
4) What will indicate when this time period is over?...Revelation, when the rest of the dead live again…Koran, the day when they are revived
5) What is this period called?...Revelation, First Resurrection…Koran, Resurrection
6) What will happen when the time period is up?...Revelation, Satan will be set loose a short time…Koran, Satan will come to them
7) What will Satan do at that time?...Revelation, mislead the nations of the earth…Koran, misguide/lure them all together
8) Do others then follow Satan’s deception?...Revelation, yes…Koran, yes
9) Are there some that are not deceived?...Revelation, yes…Koran, yes
10) Who are they?...Revelation, the witnesses to Jesus, the Word of God…Koran, the faithful worshipers
11) What is the fate of Satan and all of those that he leads astray?...Revelation, Hell, lake of fire and brimstone…Koran, Hell
 
Well Apple pie....

Thanks for your repsonse!


I. Since I asked if you could supply a few examples of your work, could you suggest what are the most salient passages for you?


II. Also when you wrote earlier:

"In fact, one book of the Holy Bible was used by the authors of the Koran as a blueprint for the entire Koran."

How do you suppose this occurred?


III. Lastly, I noted more than once in your material the following:

"The Koran is stating that Jesus is God"

Could you explain in a FEW words how you believe this is possible?


In friendship,

- Art
 
Greetings Art,


Thanks for your comments.

It is too bad that this forum has such a space limit consideration to its posts. The majority of my material spans over a much greater depth.

You mentioned this:

”I. Since I asked if you could supply a few examples of your work, could you suggest what are the most salient passages for you?”

The most prominent portions of my work would be the discovery that the Koran proclaims Jesus’ Crucifixion(and the subsequent re-birth of man through Him) loud and clear in Sura 86…




”II. Also when you wrote earlier:

"In fact, one book of the Holy Bible was used by the authors of the Koran as a blueprint for the entire Koran."

How do you suppose this occurred?”


I would suspect oral transmission to have occurred by the Koranic authors. If a copy of Revelation was in their hands cannot readily be proven. What can be proven is the undeniable parallels that exist between these two books (material found no where else in the Holy Bible).

I think the Koranic authors took to heart the warning given in the Final Biblical book (Book of Revelation) when they composed their own version of it…




”III. Lastly, I noted more than once in your material the following:

"The Koran is stating that Jesus is God"

Could you explain in a FEW words how you believe this is possible?”


Well, the conclusion that I have come to is that the Koran is merely a corrupted version of the Holy Bible. The Koran, albeit corrupted, is an extra-Biblical confirmation to the authority of it’s’ source.

>90% of the Koran is borrowed Biblical content. The Koran acknowledges that Jesus is the Messiah, that He was crucified, that He was resurrected, that men are “reborn” through Him, that Jesus is the Word of God, that Jesus is the Spirit of God, and that Jesus Biblical deity also happens to coincide with that of Allah.

The Koran, perhaps unwittingly, calls for Jesus to be God on the basis of the copious amounts of borrowed (and perhaps unfiltered) material that was blended together by its authors in an attempt to produce a new Holy Book for Islamic consumption.

Thanks…
 
Apple Pie said:
>90% of the Koran is borrowed Biblical content. The Koran acknowledges that Jesus is the Messiah, that He was crucified, that He was resurrected, that men are “reborn” through Him, that Jesus is the Word of God, that Jesus is the Spirit of God, and that Jesus Biblical deity also happens to coincide with that of Allah.

The Koran, perhaps unwittingly, calls for Jesus to be God on the basis of the copious amounts of borrowed (and perhaps unfiltered) material that was blended together by its authors in an attempt to produce a new Holy Book for Islamic consumption.

Thanks…
Click to expand...
Hi Apple Pie, and welcome to CR. :)

I have to say that although some of your ideas are certainly interesting, some of your conclusions do seem quite erroneous. For example, Islam certainly does not recognise "the Resurrection" and maintains that Jesus did not die on the Cross - thus refuteing the pivotal issue of Christian Theology.

Also note that by my understanding, Islam regards Jesus very much as like an Old Testament Prophet (of which Muhammad is apparently the final of the line). Thus Jesus could be stated to speaking the "words of God", but he certainly not as an embodied "Word of God" as per Christology.

A very great point of note is apparently made in Islam that although Jesus is a person to be greatly respected by Muslims, he is certainly not to be seen as the embodiment of God on Earth as per the mainstream Christian view. The distinction is one of paramount difference between the two religions.

But I'll leave it to allow our Muslim members address any particular points of your ideas, as they feel fit. :)
 
Thanks very much Applepie for summarizing your points for me and I am be returning later to them, but for now would only have the following:


Apple pie wrote:

”II. Also when you wrote earlier:

"In fact, one book of the Holy Bible was used by the authors of the
Koran as a blueprint for the entire Koran."

How do you suppose this occurred?”


I would suspect oral transmission to have occurred by the Koranic
authors. If a copy of Revelation was in their hands cannot readily be
proven. What can be proven is the undeniable parallels that exist between
these two books (material found no where else in the Holy Bible).

I think the Koranic authors took to heart the warning given in the
Final Biblical book (Book of Revelation) when they composed their own
version of it…

My reply:

My understanding has been that it would be unlikely the Arabs in the time of Muhammad would have even had a copy of Book of Revelation in Arabic. See the following:

"Although there are hints in the records of Arabic versions (of the New Testament) made before the Islamic conquests, the earliest manuscripts seem to date from the ninth century. The oldest dated manuscript of the version (Sinai arab. 151) comes from 867 C.E. The translations probably are not more than a century or two older."

Source:

http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn/Versions.html



Apple pie responded to my earlier post:

”III. Lastly, I noted more than once in your material the following:

"The Koran is stating that Jesus is God"

Could you explain in a FEW words how you believe this is possible?”


Well, the conclusion that I have come to is that the Koran is merely a
corrupted version of the Holy Bible. The Koran, albeit corrupted, is
an extra-Biblical confirmation to the authority of it’s’ source.

>90% of the Koran is borrowed Biblical content. The Koran acknowledges
that Jesus is the Messiah, that He was crucified, that He was
resurrected, that men are “reborn” through Him, that Jesus is the Word of God,
that Jesus is the Spirit of God, and that Jesus Biblical deity also
happens to coincide with that of Allah.

The Koran, perhaps unwittingly, calls for Jesus to be God on the basis
of the copious amounts of borrowed (and perhaps unfiltered) material
that was blended together by its authors in an attempt to produce a new
Holy Book for Islamic consumption.

My comment:

I was also curious about your references to the "authors" of the Qur'an which you mention above and your statement "the Koranic authors took to heart the warning given in the
Final Biblical book (Book of Revelation) when they composed their own
version of it…"

Who would these "authors" be?

In friendship,

- Art
 
Greetings Brian,



Thanks for your warm welcome and your reply.





You mentioned this:


”I have to say that although some of your ideas are certainly interesting, some of your conclusions do seem quite erroneous. For example, Islam certainly does not recognise "the Resurrection" and maintains that Jesus did not die on the Cross - thus refuteing the pivotal issue of Christian Theology.”



Well, I would have to disagree.



Islam, like all world faiths, has different sects within its “Religion”.



These sects vary wildly from one another.



What matters is what their Holy Book clearly states. How they interpret what is says is what they will follow.



As far as the resurrection, this theme totally and completely saturates the entire Koran, up to and including the ayahs in which Jesus proclaims His own resurrection.



As far as Jesus being crucified, as I mentioned in my previous post, Sura 86 clarifies any ambiguity arising from ayah 4:157…




”Also note that by my understanding, Islam regards Jesus very much as like an Old Testament Prophet (of which Muhammad is apparently the final of the line). Thus Jesus could be stated to speaking the "words of God", but he certainly not as an embodied "Word of God" as per Christology.”



My Thesis would say otherwise.



The authors of the Koran, in their attempt to replicate a Holy Book for themselves, attempted to reduce Jesus to no more than a prophet, while at the same time re-applying His Biblical deity to that of their newly created god.



A full and persnickety reading of the Koran will show what really occurred.



It is most unfortunate that probably 99% of the populous has not bothered to do this.






”A very great point of note is apparently made in Islam that although Jesus is a person to be greatly respected by Muslims, he is certainly not to be seen as the embodiment of God on Earth as per the mainstream Christian view. The distinction is one of paramount difference between the two religions.”



Again, anyone who takes the time to study the Koran in depth will not walk away with that conclusion at all…





Thanks for your good thoughts…
 
Greetings Art…



Thanks for your comments.



It has never been of interest to me to attempt to identify if a copy of the Book of Revelation had made its way into the hands of Muhammad & co.



The only “history” that I have been concerned with is that which is contained within the pages of the two Holy Books that I am comparing (i.e. The Holy Bible, and the Koran).



What matters most, when comparing two Holy Books such as these, is the “history” contained within them.



How they compliment each other is much more revealing than how they don’t…









“I was also curious about your references to the "authors" of the Qur'an which you mention above and your statement "the Koranic authors took to heart the warning given in the Final Biblical book (Book of Revelation) when they composed their own
version of it…"

Who would these "authors" be?”





The “authors” of the Koran are the people who pieced together the Koran.



Contrary to popular Muslim myth, there are no extant 1400 year old Korans anywhere in the entire world. In fact, there are only fragments that date 100 years after the “supposed” event took place.



So…based upon extant evidence at hand, it would be pure speculation to insist that the “original” Koran even exists…
 
Apple Pie wrote:

It has never been of interest to me to attempt to identify if a copy of the Book of Revelation had made its way into the hands of Muhammad & co.
The only “history” that I have been concerned with is that which is contained within the pages of the two Holy Books that I am comparing (i.e. The Holy Bible, and the Koran).

What matters most, when comparing two Holy Books such as these, is the “history” contained within them.

How they compliment each other is much more revealing than how they don’t…

Comment:

And yet Apple Pie, a knowledge of history and manuscripts would seem valuable wouldn't you agree?

Apple pie wrote:

The “authors” of the Koran are the people who pieced together the Koran.

Contrary to popular Muslim myth, there are no extant 1400 year old Korans anywhere in the entire world. In fact, there are only fragments that date 100 years after the “supposed” event took place.

Comment:

An "extant 1400 year old Koran" would have to be from the year 603-4 CE and from history we know that Muhammad was born around the year 571 CE so a 1400 year old Koran to which you are referring would have to be from before the Hijra or 622 CE and the ministry of Prophet Muhammad began around the years 610 to 613 CE so i think something is wrong with your assumption here! You are assuming that Moslems have a "popular myth" that there are Korans that are 1400 years old without being aware that would place such "manuscripts" well before the Revelation itself.

There is a site where a manuscript of the Qur'an has been dated from the year 107 AH or 725 CE and it is from the Egyptian National Library.

See the following:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/enl2a.html

One of the properties of the Qur'an to this day is that it is consantly recited and this process of recitation has been occurring since the revelation itself began.... Note the word "Iqra" found in 96:1; 96:3 and 17:14 means "recite" and "Proclaim!" and Moslems have been recitng and procaliming ever since.

What this means is that there was constant recitation of the Revelation from the beginning ...every Friday service would be a recitation...every Ramadan a complete recitataion of what had been revealed up to that point. The Qur'an was a work in progress over the entire ministry of Prophet Muhammad.

Secretaries also took down what was revealed and some of these writings were on Palm leaves and bones.

Also many of the Companions of the Prophet had memorized the entire Qur'an before it was finally collated and set down to writing.

- Art
 
Apple Pie said:
The only “history” that I have been concerned with is that which is contained within the pages of the two Holy Books that I am comparing (i.e. The Holy Bible, and the Koran).

What matters most, when comparing two Holy Books such as these, is the “history” contained within them.
Click to expand...
That could be an unfortunately narrow view and will surely flaw your view. You should really take a look at the application of numerology in the Bible - there were often very specific reasons for the use of certain numbers.
 
Greetings Art…



I appreciate your comments.



“And yet Apple Pie, a knowledge of history and manuscripts would seem valuable wouldn't you agree?”



Manuscript evidence is what is important. This is physical evidence.



What does the physical evidence say?





“An "extant 1400 year old Koran" would have to be from the year 603-4 CE and from history we know that Muhammad was born around the year 571 CE so a 1400 year old Koran to which you are referring would have to be from before the Hijra or 622 CE and the ministry of Prophet Muhammad began around the years 610 to 613 CE so i think something is wrong with your assumption here! You are assuming that Moslems have a "popular myth" that there are Korans that are 1400 years old without being aware that would place such "manuscripts" well before the Revelation itself.”



First of all, it is ~1400 years give or take a few years. Muslims state the 1400 year figure routinely and this is hardly an “assumption” according to faithful Muslims.






”There is a site where a manuscript of the Qur'an has been dated from the year 107 AH or 725 CE and it is from the Egyptian National Library.”

Well, thanks for confirming what I already stated in a previous post…..and that is that ONLY FRAGMENTS exist a century AFTER the supposed event took place.



Muslims call fragments “manuscripts”, which obviously can be very misleading. I invite you to comb the Islamic awareness site and you will find exactly what I already stated.




”One of the properties of the Qur'an to this day is that it is consantly recited and this process of recitation has been occurring since the revelation itself began.... Note the word "Iqra" found in 96:1; 96:3 and 17:14 means "recite" and "Proclaim!" and Moslems have been recitng and procaliming ever since.”



So?



Recitation holds zero credibility to the authenticity of any material.








”What this means is that there was constant recitation of the Revelation from the beginning ...every Friday service would be a recitation...every Ramadan a complete recitataion of what had been revealed up to that point. The Qur'an was a work in progress over the entire ministry of Prophet Muhammad.”



Again, so what?




”Secretaries also took down what was revealed and some of these writings were on Palm leaves and bones.”



And this proves what, exactly?





”Also many of the Companions of the Prophet had memorized the entire Qur'an before it was finally collated and set down to writing.”



Art….you have given me examples from silence.



Physical evidence is where it is at. Give me something that I can physically verify.





Thanks…
 
Greetings Brian,



Thanks for your reply.



“That could be an unfortunately narrow view and will surely flaw your view.”



I assure you that it is not. Thanks for your concern, though…







“You should really take a look at the application of numerology in the Bible - there were often very specific reasons for the use of certain numbers.”



Just how would isopsephia and surface numbers apply to the point that I just made?



There can be little doubt that the Holy Bible is a numerical composition, of which is totally absent within the pages of the Koran. The Koran did quite a “chop-job” when it borrowed from the Book of Revelation.





Thank for bringing this point up…
 
Apple pie,

From what you've written so far I've not seen any sources presented here that would indicate the Book of Revelation was in Arabic and available to the Prophet during His ministry, therefore to make a claim there was a "chop job" on the Book of Revelation seems pretty baseless.

Your claim that there is a widely held belief among Moslems of an extant 1400 year Qur'an is also presented here without any sources....

I also think you show a rather condescending attitude toward Islam.

What we have left are your assertions and beliefs but not much more in my view.

- Art
 
Greetings Art…



Thanks for your comments…


”From what you've written so far I've not seen any sources presented here that would indicate the Book of Revelation was in Arabic and available to the Prophet during His ministry, therefore to make a claim there was a "chop job" on the Book of Revelation seems pretty baseless.”



With all due respect, you seem offended by my candid statements. Why is this?



Are you Muslim? Or does the FACT that the Koran proclaims Jesus to be God, an issue with your faith?



I am puzzled by your insistence of “proving” that a copy of the Book of Revelation must be in the hands of the Koranic authors in order to “prove” what has occurred.



The proof of what occurred is staring you right in the face in the Arabic Koran…





”Your claim that there is a widely held belief among Moslems of an extant 1400 year Qur'an is also presented here without any sources....”



This is a common myth among Muslims. All of my Muslim friends adhere to it. You already “calculated” the 1400 years within just a few years. What’s the problem?



Btw….did you check out Islamic awareness for what I stated? I think that you did…





”I also think you show a rather condescending attitude toward Islam.”



I state it the way that it is…




”What we have left are your assertions and beliefs but not much more in my view.”



My conclusions are based upon years of study of the relevant extant material. If you want to go in-depth on certain passages of the Koran; I would be delighted…





Just let me know…
 
Apple Pie, your tone is somewhat aggressive to the fact that you seem purposefully and deliberately looking to dismiss Islam. Please note that this is not an acceptable position on CR.

This is further compounded by the fact that you are delivering certain statements that are not simply factually incorrect, but also potentially offensive on the forum.

I have also read the Qur'an (and Bible) and am quite aware that certain issues you are making claim to have no basis beyond your own personal interpretation.

Now, if you want to share in your appraisal of Islam and how it may or may not relate to the Book of Revelations as a study (with sources and references) then you are indeed welcome to start up a thread on the "Comparative Study" board, where we can engage in a very real discussion of your ideas.

However, this topic itself serves no purpose on the "Monotheism" board, other than to attack the founding beliefs of others on a board where it is not invited.

Thus, thread closed.
 
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