What's happened to Islam?
- Thread starter iBrian
- Start date
About punishment in Islam
Many of Quran statements and texts came as reaction for certain cases to learn muslim's people the tenets of their religion...the gradating and adaptation teaching of people is one of Islamic way to transfer people from case and form of life to another...it is hard to make a sudden change ....so many change of Muslims behaviour came in steps...when we read Al Quran we must put the verses in it's context to understand the meaning...so we find different adjudications for adulterously or drinking wine ....the final command should be the law....the rest we call it ( mansok) or not followed because another and newer law made it useless.
Example:
Surat ( chapter of Alnoor) have the final Allah Judgement about adultery..which doesn't followed in most of Islamic country today.
(1-10)Surah Al-Noor (the light)
1-"A sura which We have sent down and which We have ordained in it have We sent down Clear Signs, in order that ye may receive admonition.
2-The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in theircase, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day:and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
3-Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever: nor let any but such a man or anUnbeliever marry such a woman: to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.
4-And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them witheighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men arewicked transgressors;-
5-Unless they repent thereafter and mend (their conduct); for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
6-And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (canbe received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah thatthey are solemnly telling the truth;
7-And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie.
8-But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By Allah, that (her husband) is telling alie;
9-And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth.
10-If it were not for Allah's grace and mercy on you, and that Allah is Oft-Returning, full of Wisdom,- (Ye would be ruined indeed)."
These verses clarify the Islamic teaching about this issue and we see that the guilty is not a women guilt as many non muslims think ..it is both man and woman guilt ...and as Allah told us the leinence and forgiveness is the optimal standards of the pure human as the epithet of our Gud ( Allah)
................................
even the Quranic verses which told us about infidels must be turned to the context to know which infidels that Quran told us about...are they Qurish people Whom reject Islam message or are they enemies of islam from another arabs land ....or are they people outside arabs land.
I see some people here catching and referring articles and thoughts from anti_islam sites...without knowing what they quoted ....
My sis/MW
See the discussion aim and trend ...before going on it ...is it useful?
are there any help or real objective? are there any new idea for both sides?
and then take your decision to carry on it.
with my best wishes and blessing to you in Eid Alftr .
Many of Quran statements and texts came as reaction for certain cases to learn muslim's people the tenets of their religion...the gradating and adaptation teaching of people is one of Islamic way to transfer people from case and form of life to another...it is hard to make a sudden change ....so many change of Muslims behaviour came in steps...when we read Al Quran we must put the verses in it's context to understand the meaning...so we find different adjudications for adulterously or drinking wine ....the final command should be the law....the rest we call it ( mansok) or not followed because another and newer law made it useless.
Example:
Surat ( chapter of Alnoor) have the final Allah Judgement about adultery..which doesn't followed in most of Islamic country today.
(1-10)Surah Al-Noor (the light)
1-"A sura which We have sent down and which We have ordained in it have We sent down Clear Signs, in order that ye may receive admonition.
2-The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in theircase, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day:and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
3-Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever: nor let any but such a man or anUnbeliever marry such a woman: to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.
4-And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them witheighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men arewicked transgressors;-
5-Unless they repent thereafter and mend (their conduct); for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
6-And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (canbe received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah thatthey are solemnly telling the truth;
7-And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie.
8-But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By Allah, that (her husband) is telling alie;
9-And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth.
10-If it were not for Allah's grace and mercy on you, and that Allah is Oft-Returning, full of Wisdom,- (Ye would be ruined indeed)."
These verses clarify the Islamic teaching about this issue and we see that the guilty is not a women guilt as many non muslims think ..it is both man and woman guilt ...and as Allah told us the leinence and forgiveness is the optimal standards of the pure human as the epithet of our Gud ( Allah)
................................
even the Quranic verses which told us about infidels must be turned to the context to know which infidels that Quran told us about...are they Qurish people Whom reject Islam message or are they enemies of islam from another arabs land ....or are they people outside arabs land.
I see some people here catching and referring articles and thoughts from anti_islam sites...without knowing what they quoted ....
My sis/MW
See the discussion aim and trend ...before going on it ...is it useful?
are there any help or real objective? are there any new idea for both sides?
and then take your decision to carry on it.
with my best wishes and blessing to you in Eid Alftr .
bob x
Well-Known Member
On the one hand you say:
and on the other:
The scripture insists that you do me harm, but you know it is wrong. Yet you cannot say that the scriptures are wrong. This is the basic problem at the heart of the Abrahamic religions: you have a bunch of old books preserving, not just wisdom and sound morals, but also a lot of stupidities and brutalities from the deep past, and you cannot shed yourselves of them.
Very.
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
My sis/MW
See the discussion aim and trend ...before going on it ...is it useful?
are there any help or real objective? are there any new idea for both sides?
and then take your decision to carry on it.
with my best wishes and blessing to you in Eid Alftr .
as salaam aleykum sister
That is good advice, sometimes I just don't know when to finish beating a dead horse but I am trying to learn.
Eid Mobarak
bob x
Well-Known Member
Out of curiosity: how long does the Eid "al-fitr" last? A week? This would be the fifth day (approx.) of the post-Ramadan moon, so is it still Eid?
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
It lasts 3 days, of course when it starts depends on the phases of the moon.
bob x
Well-Known Member
Thanks.
flowperson
Oannes
Here is something to think about. If you were the King of Saudi Arabia would you do this thing in this
way?
This institutiion will be effectively physically and spiritually separated from the rest of the nation in which it will reside and operate. Do you believe that to be necessary for it to operate effectively in the development of science and technology ?
Finally, since the King is placing his authority on the line, do you see this as a backhanded challenge to the authority of Wahabi Islamic Imams in the functioning of Saudi governance ? And, might this all foment some sort of primal division in the national governance of Saudi Arabia ?
Lots of questions there folks...and now for some answers ?
flow....
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/26/world/middleeast/26saudi.html?hp
way?
This institutiion will be effectively physically and spiritually separated from the rest of the nation in which it will reside and operate. Do you believe that to be necessary for it to operate effectively in the development of science and technology ?
Finally, since the King is placing his authority on the line, do you see this as a backhanded challenge to the authority of Wahabi Islamic Imams in the functioning of Saudi governance ? And, might this all foment some sort of primal division in the national governance of Saudi Arabia ?
Lots of questions there folks...and now for some answers ?
flow....
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/26/world/middleeast/26saudi.html?hp
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
Hi Flow
Very interesting piece, thank you. My opinion is that the Saudi's have little choice but to move forward and open up a bit. It has been easy to live in the closed society with billions in oil revenues coming in every day but now the oil is due to run out they have to make a decision, to open up and find new ways to fund their society or stay closed and fall back even further.
The King has shown himself to be a forward thinker on a number of projects but he will need to tread carefully, change will not come quickly to one of the most closed societies in the world. I really hope this project takes off, it may ring some changes for Islam as well as Saudi. Muslims need to concentrate on science and regaining their wealth of knowledge, without giving themselves over to western lifestyles.
I think it is a really positive move, inshallah it will succeed and find middle ground.
Salaam
Very interesting piece, thank you. My opinion is that the Saudi's have little choice but to move forward and open up a bit. It has been easy to live in the closed society with billions in oil revenues coming in every day but now the oil is due to run out they have to make a decision, to open up and find new ways to fund their society or stay closed and fall back even further.
The King has shown himself to be a forward thinker on a number of projects but he will need to tread carefully, change will not come quickly to one of the most closed societies in the world. I really hope this project takes off, it may ring some changes for Islam as well as Saudi. Muslims need to concentrate on science and regaining their wealth of knowledge, without giving themselves over to western lifestyles.
I think it is a really positive move, inshallah it will succeed and find middle ground.
Salaam
flowperson
Oannes
Salaam indeed Sal... But it's all about that "tribal" mindset that I was talking about on another thread. (I'm sure CPi still 'believes' that he's a nomad, I''ll let him). I agree that a middle ground must be sought and reached by the people there.
The ordinary people, not the elites, need to be made aware of the rich heritage that their ancestors gave to them relating to the preservation of much of the technical knowledge that the west has done so well in developing to it's economic advantage. Right now the Imams have control of the "tribal mindset" of the people. How might the King overcome all of that? Excluding their input won't do it. That will only make them dig in their orthodox heels all the more.
I'm like you, it needs to happen, but these sorts of cultural changes take many years, and the people have been put to sleep by the oil revenues and the goodies it's all been buying. It's very difficult to separate cultural realities from the economic pursuits of a nation, especially one as tradition bound as Saudi Arabia.
I'm kind of pessimistic about outcomes, but I do wish the King well with this.
flow....
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
Have a read of this when you get a minute Flow, it is from early last year but shows some of the changes that have been happening in Saudi. Okay to us they sound crazy but for them they are quite amazing, the fact that the Imams haven't gone nuts about some of these changes is a small step forward.
Veil power | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited
The secret, imo, will be change at a slow pace, if they try to force changes and opening up of society too quickly then the Imams will close ranks and cause mayhem. They need to water things down over a few generations, so the upcoming Imams are used to more open ideas. The day for a world wide party will come when they get rid of the bloody religious police, they are the scurge of hell.
Veil power | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited
The secret, imo, will be change at a slow pace, if they try to force changes and opening up of society too quickly then the Imams will close ranks and cause mayhem. They need to water things down over a few generations, so the upcoming Imams are used to more open ideas. The day for a world wide party will come when they get rid of the bloody religious police, they are the scurge of hell.
flowperson
Oannes
Hi MW...Salaam
Thanks for the article, very informative. Like I said, it will take many years, and as you said it must be done in baby steps. But the exclusion of the religious clothing cops from this new institution that the King is building is a positive step forward I think.
Of course you do realize that men ARE uncontrollably attracted to women, and women ARE natural temptresses. And both of these realities are the baggage that comes with our primal directive, "Be Fruitful and Multiply".
I think one of the greatest accomplishments of the western mindset over the centuries is that these individual and societal urges have been subsumed into development philosophies aimed at the common welfare. Modern media image infiltration into our lives is countering this somewhat, but the incidence of violent sex crimes seems to also be receding in most industrialized nations.
Stay well....flow....
Thanks for the article, very informative. Like I said, it will take many years, and as you said it must be done in baby steps. But the exclusion of the religious clothing cops from this new institution that the King is building is a positive step forward I think.
Of course you do realize that men ARE uncontrollably attracted to women, and women ARE natural temptresses. And both of these realities are the baggage that comes with our primal directive, "Be Fruitful and Multiply".
I think one of the greatest accomplishments of the western mindset over the centuries is that these individual and societal urges have been subsumed into development philosophies aimed at the common welfare. Modern media image infiltration into our lives is countering this somewhat, but the incidence of violent sex crimes seems to also be receding in most industrialized nations.
Stay well....flow....
bob x
Well-Known Member
I don't think they have "many years", certainly not "a few generations", to accomplish the changes.
flowperson
Oannes
And should we all now address you as "Prophet Bob x" or perhaps "Great and Munificent Seer Bob x"?
Don't try to incite unproductive arguments so obviously.
It should insult your intelligence. I'm quite sure that it does ours.
But hey, I really can't speak for others, nor should I....
Go 'haid an' do yo' thingy Michigander.
flow....
Don't try to incite unproductive arguments so obviously.
It should insult your intelligence. I'm quite sure that it does ours.
But hey, I really can't speak for others, nor should I....
Go 'haid an' do yo' thingy Michigander.
flow....
bob x
Well-Known Member
I stated my opinion, prefaced by "I don't think that..." not "In the name of GAWWWUUDD I prophesy..." If you disagree with my opinion, then disagree with it. I think that Saudi Arabia is very poorly served by advice to move slowly; the time to start a gradual program of change lasting a couple of generations would have been a couple of generations ago.
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
But they did not start a couple of generations ago Bob and if they try to make sweeping changes the backlash will rid them of the small changes and advancements they have already made. This world doesn't need another civil war or revolution, it needs steady progress with each nation supporting and helping each other.
bob x
Well-Known Member
I know they didn't start a couple generations ago. That is why if they do not move quickly now, it will be too late for them. You think that moving quickly will cause upheaval, and I cannot doubt that you are right, but the alternative will end even worse.
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
What is this dreadful alternative you speak of? Living in the dark ages? They have done that for centuries another one isn't going to wipe them off the face of the earth.
I would suggest the other alternative is worse still, push them too fast and the place would be a blood bath (even more so than it is currently).
bob x
Well-Known Member
A sheet of radioactive glass where Mecca used to be (or maybe two sheets: I don't think the US would dare unless Russia was in agreement, but another 9/11 close in time to another Beslan schoolhouse, and I can see, "We'll take responsibility for Mecca if you slag Medina").
They used to live in the dark ages in relative isolation from the rest of the world: that is not possible any more. They cannot continue to be a breeding ground for dangerous lunatics, and a funder of lunatics elsewhere: it won't be tolerated. There are many people whose attitudes toward Islam are angrier than mine, though a lot of them are too polite to express themselves as openly as I do.
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
Bob you must have a better understanding of world politics than that (I know you do). Last week the King of Saudi was in the UK having dinner with the Queen and all the loud opponents of the Saudi regime attended the dinner. OIL is the name of the game and while they have oil our countries will talk a good game but not play one.
Quite frankly I would love the Saudi's to be brought to task for their misuse of my faith. My husband goes red in the face every time I say Islam and Saudi in the same sentence. But bombing them achieves nothing more than creating a whole new generation of terrorists. This is what our countries need to understand, our actions, our policies are helping to create more of these lunatics. It is like punching a baloon, deal with one place and others pop up somewhere else.
Saudi does breed these nutters but hatred will not re-educate them, it will feed their hatred. There are also people in Saudi that have no thoughts beyond their daily lives and these are the people we should support and help, not push into a corner so they have to come out fighting.
Quite frankly I would love the Saudi's to be brought to task for their misuse of my faith. My husband goes red in the face every time I say Islam and Saudi in the same sentence. But bombing them achieves nothing more than creating a whole new generation of terrorists. This is what our countries need to understand, our actions, our policies are helping to create more of these lunatics. It is like punching a baloon, deal with one place and others pop up somewhere else.
Saudi does breed these nutters but hatred will not re-educate them, it will feed their hatred. There are also people in Saudi that have no thoughts beyond their daily lives and these are the people we should support and help, not push into a corner so they have to come out fighting.