Heaven and Nirvana/ Comparative Religion

[Nick the Pilot]

Z, you said,

"the impression i get from books and mediums NDE’s etc is that heaven is a process of transformation, so where would it ultimately arrive at - the ultimate? what do you think that would be?"​

--> I do not see Heaven as the ultimate. I see the ultimate (whatever that is) at a level much, much higher than Heaven. I do not think we can even conceive of the ultimate, while we can easily conceive of Heaven.

I think you are saying we continue to evolve even while in Heaven. I agree! I see no reason for us to stop evolving spiritually, mentally, etc., just because we enter Heaven.


Are you asking what I think the ultimate is? I cannot imagine. It has been said the finite mind cannot comprehend the infinite. I agree. (It is fun to try to comprehend the infinite, but when I do, I just get a headache.)

"Yes! And I celebrate our differences --> arent they superficial?"​

--> They are. This whole world is superficial. This whole world has been artifically created for our benefit, to teach us specific lessons. Once the lessons have been learned, the need for this world (actually, the need for the entire physical universe) will disappear.

"i mean we all live in the same world, see the same things, just from different perspectives."​

--> We do. This is part of the artificial nature of the physical world. (I believe a great deal of the artificial nature of what we presently see will disappear, once we stop living inside physical bodies.)

"many biblical stories appear to have derived elsewhere then had abrahamic descriptions put to them e.g: the real Eden."​

--> Yes. Many Biblical stories are much older than most people realize. It we go back far enough, we can see how many religious creation myths came from the same original story. I have been recently studying the similarities of Chrisitian, Jewish, Buddhist, and Hindu creation myths, and there is a lot more similarity than I expected.

"originally the Persian gulf was the fourth river of the area not a sea, then a while after the ice melted [around 6000 BC] and as the waters from the Arabian sea rose, there was a catastrophic flood in those fertile plains - which were later referred to as ‘eden’ in the bible."​

--> Have you seen the online pictures of underwater cities, cities that sunk when the big earthquakes hit?

"to cut a long story short; the original Persian myth represented the transition from hunter gatherers - innocence - to cultivation and civilisation. then abraham used this as a metaphor adding the catastrophic flood as an example of how god punishes the evil doers who dare to take it upon themselves to create - the apple?"​

--> That is an interesting explanation of the Persian creation myth. I had not heard that before. It is an interesting mix of innocence to knowledge, and punishment thrown in.

 

[_Z_]

hello tao

i have done a thread for another forum called the ‘universalism challenge thread’ whereby the challenge is to find alternative ways of answering old questions without the use of terms like god or spirit and soul etc. i have taken the socratean line where he died challenging the then state religion. i have even gone so far as to question if we need religion at all or if everything of value can be explained philosophically or scientifically!
the problem is; would it hold here and be debated stoically - without people getting all emotional about it? i wish people could see me as like socrates_II, i mean no harm but am genuinely searching for truths.

nick

a level much, much higher than Heaven

absolutely - it is a journey, that to me reflects where we are in terms of our own inner truth. when we get to the centre of self, we arrive at the inner core of reality.

Are you asking what I think the ultimate is? I cannot imagine. It has been said the finite mind cannot comprehend the infinite

as above; it is all within us - infinity included! the deeper we go into ourselves the deeper we go into the nature of reality.

This whole world has been artifically created for our benefit, to teach us specific lessons

i see your point, but what if it is just ‘there’ irrespective of us. secondly what happens when all is learned, does everything stop and can we ever arrive at that when reality is ever-changing, i would think that therer would always be new perspectives and new truths to learn.

...if it is all about learning. perhaps that is only part of it, in the main the world is here to experience without question.

I have been recently studying the similarities of Chrisitian, Jewish, Buddhist, and Hindu creation myths, and there is a lot more similarity than I expected.

for sure. after the ice age there was a massive movement of peoples, i would think many have the same traditions cultural aspects and even racial connections.

Have you seen the online pictures of underwater cities, cities that sunk when the big earthquakes hit?

i seen a TV show about them but not pictures - any links?

 

[Nick the Pilot]

-----====ooo000ooo====-----

Z, you said,

"i have done a thread for another forum called the ‘universalism challenge thread’ whereby the challenge is to find alternative ways of answering old questions without the use of terms like god or spirit and soul etc."​

--> That sounds like quite a challenge. I will be curious as to how it turns out.

"i have taken the socratean line where he died challenging the then state religion."​

--> I hope you are ready to pay the same price!

"i have even gone so far as to question if we need religion at all or if everything of value can be explained philosophically or scientifically!"​

--> There is a theory that some things can only be discussed in a religious way. (I have a good quote on that somewhere. Let me see if I can find it.)

"the problem is; would it hold here and be debated stoically - without people getting all emotional about it?"​

--> Probably not. But, what the heck, go for it!

"a level much, much higher than Heaven --> absolutely - it is a journey, that to me reflects where we are in terms of our own inner truth. when we get to the centre of self, we arrive at the inner core of reality."​

--> I like to look at the stars, and imagine the Beings that have those stars as their physical bodies. Their level of consciousness must be waaaay higher than Heaven.

"...what happens when all is learned, does everything stop...."​

--> That would mean there is no reason for us to exist in the first place.

"...i would think that therer would always be new perspectives and new truths to learn."​

--> According to my belief system, everything in the universe, even the Highest Beings, are still evolving to a higher level. That makes a lot of sense to me.

"Have you seen the online pictures of underwater cities, cities that sunk when the big earthquakes hit? --> i seen a TV show about them but not pictures - any links?"​

UNDERWATER PYRAMIDS: JAPAN

--> I think there have been entire advanced civilizations and continents that have disappeared, and we know nothing about them. I think we have no idea what kinds of civilizations existed ten, twenty, or thirty thousand years ago. That sunken city near Japan is a good example.

 

[_Z_]

nick

I hope you are ready to pay the same price!

hahaha i am not fond of extremes, i just like the idea of what he was about, going around challenging peoples ideas exhaustively in his search for truth.

There is a theory that some things can only be discussed in a religious way

interesting contrast.

Probably not. But, what the heck, go for it!

i’ll rewrite it a bit more fluffy - probably post it at the weekend after i have give it some more thought.

I like to look at the stars, and imagine the Beings that have those stars as their physical bodies. Their level of consciousness must be waaaay higher than Heaven.

that’s a little pagan isn’t it?

That would mean there is no reason for us to exist in the first place

our reason to exist is to learn yes - or is it that we just are? to me it is like a skill, one can improve yet there comes a point when one is a master. the point is that once all learned what then? i think humanity is fast reaching such a point - it may not be so that we will know everything, but to know most means we arrive at virtually the same place!

everything in the universe, even the Highest Beings, are still evolving to a higher level. That makes a lot of sense to me

interesting. in contrast to my last statement, i agree that even when the given skill is learned there will always be new ways to use it. perhaps the ‘all-learned’ thing happens periodically then everything changes.
it fascinates me that we had a relatively short period where people like jesus and buddha taught, could that have been such a period - are we now learning a new?
perhaps there are high points on various levels, then was religion now is science next will perhaps be philosophy [again].

thank you for the link, i saw a documentary about japans sunken city, it was questioned as a natural phenomenon, but i see no reason why it couldnt have been a city as the oceans were lower. i cannot imagine that cities and temples etc just suddenly got learned over night, there would be many skills learned over thousands of years before we even get to large buildings. that alone takes civilisation back somewhat. in ancient britain there was animal farming with ditches being built to pen the animals in, this happened way before agriculture as did herding [which even unsettled nomads did].

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Z, you said,

"i just like the idea of what he was about, going around challenging peoples ideas exhaustively in his search for truth."​

--> This reminds me of a quote from the book, The Inner Life.

"The way in which the world usually treats a new truth is first to ridicule it, then to grow angry about it, and then to adopt it and pretend that it has always held that view. In the meantime the first exponent of the new truth has probably been put to death or died of a broken heart." (p. 46)​

--> We said,

"There is a theory that some things can only be discussed in a religious way. --> interesting contrast."​

--> Here are some observations from Dr. David Roef's presentations at the last two California Summer Theosophical Conferences.

"Science is based on the Scientific Method. That which does not relie on re-creatable, empirical evidence is not science."

"We gain new information via three modes:
flash -- vision -- science
brain -- logic -- philosophy
contemplation - spiritual insight -- religion
When one of these three starts claiming things that it can "see" what one of the other two can see, we get into trouble."

"Science cannot tell us the why of phenomena.' — H. P. Blavatsky."

"Our differences are: Science develops through the intellect and instruments, occultism asks us to us the real [Self]."

"Psychologists with only the physical senses are only behaviorists. Gurus in caves know nothing of science. They will say something like, 'The Earth is resting on the back of a turtle.' We must respect each level. But are these spiritual facts?"

"The Scientific Method brought rationality into the world. Reason triumphed over superstition. But the first victory was empiricism not rationality. Using pure logic: An object that is twice as heavy will fall twice as fast. Logical truth was a rationalized argument. The rationally argued there is a God. Does a heavier object fall faster? It makes sense, but let's prove it. Science goes beyond logic. Science has delivered us from empiricism. Galileo told the church leaders to look through his telescope, and they said no. The idea that the Earth went around the Sun didn't make sense."
​

--> Dr. Roef's main idea is, science, philosophy, and religion deal with three different areas. One cannot be used to prove the other two. (I agree.)

"I like to look at the stars, and imagine the Beings that have those stars as their physical bodies. Their level of consciousness must be waaaay higher than Heaven. --> that’s a little pagan isn’t it?"
​

Wow, maybe I should call myself Nick the Pagan. (I have no problem with that title.) What is the difference between Pantheism and Paganism?

"our reason to exist is to learn yes - or is it that we just are?"
​

--> Our purpose is not only exist, it is to improve ourselves.

"...one can improve yet there comes a point when one is a master. the point is that once all learned what then?"
​

--> Then a whole set of new lessons is given, which then need to be learned. A plant's purpose in life is to learn how to run a metabolism. When it eventually masters that, it becomes an animal. An animal's purpose in life is to learn how to function in a fully-mobile body, and use lower-mind funtions. When it masters those, it becomes a human. A human's purpose in life is to learn total unselfishness. When we do that, we will be ready to move to the next level, which I can only describe as cosmic consciousness.

"i think humanity is fast reaching such a point...."
​

--> So it is. Then it will be ready to learn to whole new set of lessons.

"...even when the given skill is learned there will always be new ways to use it."
​

--> Yes.

"it fascinates me that we had a relatively short period where people like jesus and buddha taught...."
​

--> There is no reason to believe such teachers will stop appearing.

"...it was questioned as a natural phenomenon...."
​

--> There will always be doubters. Many people refuse to think entire civilizations have disappeared under the sea.

"...in ancient britain there was animal farming with ditches being built to pen the animals in, this happened way before agriculture as did herding [which even unsettled nomads did]."
​

--> I have heard Stonehenge was built by the giants mentioned in the Bible. According to that story, they were big enough to pick up the Stonehenge stones by hand!

 

[Neemai]

Re: -----====ooo000ooo====-----

Z, you said,

"Have you seen the online pictures of underwater cities, cities that sunk when the big earthquakes hit? --> i seen a TV show about them but not pictures - any links?"​

UNDERWATER PYRAMIDS: JAPAN

--> I think there have been entire advanced civilizations and continents that have disappeared, and we know nothing about them. I think we have no idea what kinds of civilizations existed ten, twenty, or thirty thousand years ago. That sunken city near Japan is a good example.

There's some more pictures here on Graham Hancock's website:
The Official Graham Hancock Website: Gallery

It was his show on C4 in England where I first heard of them. There's rumours of a city off the North-West coast of India also, which many believe to be the remains of Dwarka, which is described as being flooded in the Puranas. Apparently, nothing conclusive has been found yet.

National Institute of Oceanography, India


... Neemai

 

[_Z_]

nick

That which does not rely on re-creatable, empirical evidence is not science."

there is an argument that nothing is objective and all are subjective - even when objective information is recreated from multiple sources. personally i don’t believe, nor do i think empiricism covers it properly.
i think science ignores intuition and self contained [not based on observation] logic [even math can be put in this bracket to a degree].

--> Dr. Roef’s main idea is, science, philosophy, and religion deal with three different areas. One cannot be used to prove the other two. (I agree.)

i think each belongs to the whole, after all there is only one reality to be drawn from. the problem here is that the three are being categorised into three where they actually cross over on many levels. it may be true that science and religion are the furthest apart yet they are joined by philosophy - which isn’t just about logic it can be about deep spiritual meaning too.

What is the difference between Pantheism and Paganism?

indeed. same goes for panentheism etc as i see it - they all beleive in many gods, just in different ways, then panentheism adds a single creator god, in a manner.

--> Our purpose is not only exist, it is to improve ourselves.

could be yes, it could equally be so that as we learn how to live and survive improvement simply happens. although i feel there are two ends to the matter - so to say. by this i mean that seen in all-time rather than linear time then the outcome presides over the origin. we can perhaps visualise this as the higher human self and our inner truth, draw us towards them.

--> There is no reason to believe such teachers will stop appearing.

or that we will not need them as we will all [mostly] have advanced enough to learn for ourselves!

--> I have heard Stonehenge was built by the giants mentioned in the Bible. According to that story, they were big enough to pick up the Stonehenge stones by hand!

i think people cut and moved them [which there is plenty of evidence for], the blue stones were believed to have magical healing properties, which is why they were brought all the way from wales to southern england.

neemai

thanks for the links - i watched that program too.