Do we (Muslims, Christians and Jews) believe in the same God or not?

[/QUOTE] I always thought that Allah said the Qu'ran was the only miracle. Am I misinformed?[/QUOTE]
Yes brother, unfortunately you were. When Moses (Musa) split the sea into 2 by Allah's/God's will that was a miracle. When Jesus (Eesa) cured the blind etc.. by Allah's/God's will that was a miracle too. The Qur'an is belived by Muslims also to be a miracle, but not the only one.:)
 
Same God?

Greetings!

As the other Bahai's pointed out, we believe that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all revelations from the same God, the Abrahamaic God.

I think a lot of the confusion on this matter arises not because people follow different God's, but because each language has its own translation of God, for example: -

English: God
German: Gott
Spanish: Dios
French: Dieu
Italian: Dio
Portugese: Deus
Arabic: Allah
etc.!

Yes, that means Christians living in Arabic countries say 'Allah'!

Warmest greetings,
Ocean Drop
 
We all are slight variations of each other, true. But, these slight variations make our Gods different (i.e. Christians have a God that came to eath) because Jesus is God. So, we don't have the same God, just variations of the same God, which come from what I pointed out in my earlier post.
 
Concrete issues

arthra said:
. . .

Baha'is do have a perspective on the progressive developement of religions known as "Progressive Revelation" and as Harmony noted there are spiritual and social teachings in each dispensation... The spiritual teachings remain essentially the same and form the inner core and common spiritual ground of our religions... The social teachings vary and are conditioned by the exegeses of times and place where the revelation occurs.

. . .

Dear Harmony and Art, I must commend you for your soothing posts, in which just the same the message is clearly stated, without ambiguity and reservations or even quibbles.

In line with your distinction between the core constant spiritual teachings of Baha'i and the social teachings conditioned by the times, I wonder if you can deal with the following questions I am going to address to you:

Same sex marriage, what is your stand here in regard to the spiritual teaching and the social teaching.

Extra-marital relationship or live-in cohabitation emulating marriage but without the legal sanction of the law in a society.

Abortion, i.e., removal of a fetus bringing about its death.

Capital punishment, i.e., killing a criminal as a legally sanctioned punishment.


I think you can enlighten me about Baha'i doctrines and policies in those issues just briefly.

Susma Rio Sep
 
Not a democracy

Marsh said:
Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep
"On my part, I am always left wondering why God being all powerful and attentive all the time to keep the universe and mankind on even keel -- Not one hair shall fall from your head...*, doesn't just come forward appearing on international T.V. and the internet to tell us what He truly wants us to know about Him and His plans for mankind."

From Marsch: Question: Why, when our children are old enough to speak and walk, do we not give them our car keys, our credit cards, the deed to our houses, and simply tell them, "There. Now get out there and live." If the answers were given to you ahead of time, would you continue to learn, or would you (like I certainly would) become lazy? Good fathers never raise lazy children.

You know, Marsh, when my two kids were much younger they came across the idea of democracy. One day they wanted something to which I said No. They reminded me that we are living in a democracy.

"Not here, not with me, and not for us," I told them. "This is not a democracy here, this is a family, and I decide for everyone, even though I give you guys a patient hearing." End of debate.

Actually my point is that God should continue the education process of mankind by going on international T.V. and even the Internet. I do the same with my two kids, telling them in person again and again what I expect them to do, to be, so as to prepare themselves for their own independent lives when they leave home and when we one day leave them for good.

I would not delegate that job to another, and certainly not to several spokesmen who don't even have the common sense to get together and adopt a common platform.


Susma Rio Sep
 
Of queens and houris

Muhammad-Khalifa said:
Quote from Marsh:
"Quick question to those who know more than I do: What happens to Muslim women when they die? I assume that these "houris" aren't them."

Kahl answers: When Muslim women die, they become the Queens of the "Houris". (Implying to be amongst the most beautiful of the "Huris").

Khal, if I may, are you telling us that houris are females who are in Paradise without passing through death, meaning they are already there like angels, and Queens in Paradise who are above them in hierarchy are humans who got to Paradise through the portal of death?

I am very interested in the denizens of Paradise in the religion of Islam. So far I know about houris who are females, then about guys who get there on their merits from this earthly world upon death, and now women who died and became Queens over houris. I need more information.

In the Christian heaven which I think is not exactly Paradise there are angels I assume, but the inhabitants by right there are the souls of deceased men and women, who got there by virtue of Jesus' redemptive work. Who are these souls, or of what peoples?

First, there are Adam and Eve, then the just of the Old Testament: Judges, Prophets, the founders of the Jewish people, the just of the Old Testament -- this is from the standpoint of Christians, I don't know about the position of Jews.

Now, for the deceased who passed on after Jesus' coming and redemptive work, we have the apostles, the contemporary disciples of Jesus, then the virgins and the holy widows who followed Jesus in foregoing sex, then all men and women who were saved through good works and faith, or by faith alone, depending upon whether they be Catholics or Protestants.

What are these souls doing in heaven which is not exactly the Paradise of the Muslims? They are arranged in concentric circles around God, singing His praise continuously and for the rest of eternity.

Susma Rio Sep
 
Susma Rio Sep said:
Dear Harmony and Art, I must commend you for your soothing posts, in which just the same the message is clearly stated, without ambiguity and reservations or even quibbles.

In line with your distinction between the core constant spiritual teachings of Baha'i and the social teachings conditioned by the times, I wonder if you can deal with the following questions I am going to address to you:

I think you can enlighten me about Baha'i doctrines and policies in those issues just briefly.

Susma Rio Sep
Dear Susma,

thank you for your kind words.

any one of these topics can usually turn into pretty long discussions.

You may find some answers at these links.

http://bahai-library.com/?file=kelsey_bahai_answers.html

http://bahai-library.com/?file=uhj_homosexuality_biology.html

http://forums.delphiforums.com/planetbahai/messages?msg=2574.1

I would recommend moving this to a new thread, but to give you an explanation of Baha'i belief on these matters I will be brief.

Same sex marriage, what is your stand here in regard to the spiritual teaching and the social teaching.

Marriage is confined between a man and a woman in the Holy Writings.


Extra-marital relationship or live-in cohabitation emulating marriage but without the legal sanction of the law in a society.
Sex is confined to a married couple.

84:2>"There are those who maintain that pre-marital sex is necessary to determine whether or not a man and a woman are compatible. This point of view overlooks the fact that true marriage is a spiritual union and that if a couple have really discovered each other's character and love what they see, then sex cannot be a fundamental problem. If they love each other and there should turn out to be sexual difficulty after marriage, which is unlikely, then they will wish to solve the problem together in tenderness and love, with, if necessary, medical help. If they do not love each other, then pre-marital sex is not going to make any difference and to base a marriage on any sexual pleasure which may be found before marriage is to invite disaster. Furthermore, indulgence in pre-marital sex on these grounds will surely take away some of the beauty from marriage: there will be, even if subconsciously, a devaluation of the marriage itself, perhaps a sense of hypocrisy, and a feeling of having started the marriage on less than the highest ideal." Abdu'l-Baha,

Abortion, i.e., removal of a fetus bringing about its death.

Baha'i's believe the soul begins at conception, so in essence abortion is murder and murder is condemned. If the mothers life is in jeopardy, I believe an exception can be made. (Art, correct me if I'm wrong)


Capital punishment, i.e., killing a criminal as a legally sanctioned punishment.

"Shoghi Effendi, in response to a question about this verse of the Aqdas, affirmed that while capital punishment is permitted, an alternative, "life imprisonment", has been provided "whereby the rigours of such a condemnation can be seriously mitigated". He states that "Bahá'u'lláh has
given us a choice and has, therefore, left us free to use our own discretion within certain limitations imposed by His law". In the absence of specific guidance concerning the application of this aspect of Bahá'í law, it remains for the Universal House of Justice to legislate on the matter in the
future." (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 204)


I hope that is of some help. Brian feel free to move this post if you think it's best.

Loving Greetings, Harmony
 
I wonder if you can deal with the following questions I am going to address to you: [i said:
Same sex marriage, what is your stand here in regard to the spiritual teaching and the social teaching.

Extra-marital relationship or live-in cohabitation emulating marriage but without the legal sanction of the law in a society.

Abortion, i.e., removal of a fetus bringing about its death.

Capital punishment, i.e., killing a criminal as a legally sanctioned punishment.[/i]

I think you can enlighten me about Baha'i doctrines and policies in those issues just briefly.

Susma Rio Sep




Briefly here are my responses and bear in mind taht I am replying only as a Baha'i here and do not represent any official Baha'i institution:

Susma:

Same sex marriage, what is your stand here in regard to the spiritual teaching and the social teaching.

My reply:

In the Baha'i Faith only marriage between men and women is recognised.

Susma:

Extra-marital relationship or live-in cohabitation emulating marriage but without the legal sanction of the law in a society.

My reply:

Baha'is do not condone extra marital relations. As to recognizing marriages beyong the law that could be more complicated... In Iran for instance, Baha'i marriage is illegal however Baha'is would recognize it nonetheless... When the Faith is being newly adopted by new believers who say have a tradition of polygamy we allow them to remain in that until the next generation of Baha'is where our laws will be more binding.

Susma:

Abortion, i.e., removal of a fetus bringing about its death.

Reply:

Baha'is are opposed to elective abortions, that is those which are purely for financial or social reasons alone.... such as aborting a female foetus simply because it is female rather than male as is sometimes done in India.... We would condone abortions that are for medical reasons.

Susma:

Capital punishment, i.e., killing a criminal as a legally sanctioned punishment.[/i]

Reply:

The Baha'i Writings allow Capital Punishment however, currently though the Justice system in the US is not a fair one...that too many people of one race or class are executed. We also would support life imprisonment as well.

You understand Susma, there is much more than just these brief replies and they also apply to Baha'i societies in the future that are yet to be established...

- Art
 
Susma Rio Sep said:
You know, Marsh, when my two kids were much younger they came across the idea of democracy. One day they wanted something to which I said No. They reminded me that we are living in a democracy.

"Not here, not with me, and not for us," I told them. "This is not a democracy here, this is a family, and I decide for everyone, even though I give you guys a patient hearing." End of debate.

Actually my point is that God should continue the education process of mankind by going on international T.V. and even the Internet. I do the same with my two kids, telling them in person again and again what I expect them to do, to be, so as to prepare themselves for their own independent lives when they leave home and when we one day leave them for good.

I would not delegate that job to another, and certainly not to several spokesmen who don't even have the common sense to get together and adopt a common platform.


Susma Rio Sep

If that was the best move, don't you think God would make it? Or is God not smart enough to think of it?

I think that the first thing that a believer in God needs to come to terms with is the fact that they will not be able to figure out what God's motivations are. This is not because God is unjust, or arbitrary, but rather he's just too smart. When you denied your children what they wanted, did you do it to be malicious? Certainly not! I surmise that you made the call based on your judgment of what would happen to them: you considered both giving and not giving, weighed each possibility, and came to the conclusion based on your love for your children.

Now let me ask you: Did your children understand your decision? Of course not-- they are children, and not able to comprehend as you comprehend. The same is true of God: he doesn't allow us to call him "Father" for nothing.
 
Just one more question...

I always thought that Allah said the Qu'ran was the only miracle. Am I misinformed?[/QUOTE]
Yes brother, unfortunately you were. When Moses (Musa) split the sea into 2 by Allah's/God's will that was a miracle. When Jesus (Eesa) cured the blind etc.. by Allah's/God's will that was a miracle too. The Qur'an is belived by Muslims also to be a miracle, but not the only one.:)[/QUOTE]

Thank you for both of your replies to my questions. As you can see, my knowledge of Islam is rather limited. I just have one more question that kind of links both of my questions together. I am starting to notice that one of the biggest problems that people of differing faiths have when they speak about God is that we sometimes have different meanings for the same words. Not completely different, mind you, but it doesn't take a lot of difference to create a misunderstanding. So I want to throw these questions to you or to anyone else who may be able to answer:

a) According to Islam, how does one define the word "miracle?"
b) According to Islam, how does one define the word "paradise?"

I would really appreciate answers on either or both question, so that my understanding might improve.
 
Muhammad-Khalifa, you have raised a point that I've been thinking about a lot lately. I unfortunately don't know enough about the three religions you've mentioned to really bring this up, but I will anyway. I've wondered if Judaism, Christianity and Islam were all, at the core, the same religion. They have differences, but what if those differences were just the result of different interpretations and different cultures. Wouldn't it be great to put aside all those differences and worship together? I would think if we believe in the same God, it must be the same religion. From what I have seen, I think we do.
 
Shih Yo Chi said:
Muhammad-Khalifa, you have raised a point that I've been thinking about a lot lately. I unfortunately don't know enough about the three religions you've mentioned to really bring this up, but I will anyway. I've wondered if Judaism, Christianity and Islam were all, at the core, the same religion. They have differences, but what if those differences were just the result of different interpretations and different cultures. Wouldn't it be great to put aside all those differences and worship together? I would think if we believe in the same God, it must be the same religion. From what I have seen, I think we do.

Very well put Shih Yo Chi.... and welcome to the Forum!

This is very similar to the Baha'i belief and I'm sure many Moslems agree with this as well that it "must be the same religion" only manifesting itself at various times and places.

- Art
 
Diverse cuisines

Shih Yo Chi said:
Muhammad-Khalifa, you have raised a point that I've been thinking about a lot lately. I unfortunately don't know enough about the three religions you've mentioned to really bring this up, but I will anyway. I've wondered if Judaism, Christianity and Islam were all, at the core, the same religion. They have differences, but what if those differences were just the result of different interpretations and different cultures. Wouldn't it be great to put aside all those differences and worship together? I would think if we believe in the same God, it must be the same religion. From what I have seen, I think we do.

Dear Shih:

You say something which I believe is worth the genuine attention of every Jew, Christian, and Muslim, and whatever other monotheists:

I would think if we believe in the same God, it must be the same religion. From what I have seen, I think we do.

If I were talking from the standpoint of a guy teaching good nutrition to un-instructed folks, I would say let's all together emphasize a truly balanced and sufficient diet, but let's not quarrel over cuisines; so with religion.

Let everyone pray in the way he's been brought up to pray, in the Jewish way, Christian way, or Muslim way. And let no one disturb others in the way he prays. For the second wish item to succeed, all men of good will and sound mind should keep a good rein over so-called religious leaders.

Susma Rio Sep
 
Question?.....based on just a few Suras....there are many, many more. Examples:



Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;

002.023 And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.

002.034And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.

002.035We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."

002.038 We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

002.049 And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh: They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.

002.050And remember We divided the sea for you and saved you and drowned Pharaoh's people within your very sight.

002.051 And remember We appointed forty nights for Moses, and in his absence ye took the calf (for worship), and ye did grievous wrong.

002.052 Even then We did forgive you; there was a chance for you to be grateful.

002.053 And remember We gave Moses the Scripture and the Criterion (Between right and wrong): There was a chance for you to be guided aright.

002.056 Then We raised you up after your death: Ye had the chance to be grateful.

002.057And We gave you the shade of clouds and sent down to you Manna and quails, saying: "Eat of the good things We have provided for you:" (But they rebelled); to us they did no harm, but they harmed their own souls.

002.058 And remember We said: "Enter this town, and eat of the plenty therein as ye wish; but enter the gate with humility, in posture and in words, and We shall forgive you your faults and increase (the portion of) those who do good."

Ok......this is a small sample of the hundreds, maybe thousands of examples:

My question.......Is Allah a he, or is Allah a We?.....It is crystal clear that Allah is not alone. We implies more than one, doesn't it?........Why do Muslims disregard this fact?

But, it isn't only Muslems........One of the first things that the Hebrew/Christian/Muslim God says in the Old Testament is: "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness"......yet Yahweh/Allah/El...whatever you want to call him......says repeatedly, "I am the only God there is, and there is no other"........what is all this "We" stuff?......and since ALL three religions (four if you count Catholicism as separate from Protestantism) ascribe a "singular, male gender" to God......do you think that the other member(s) of the group are offended?.......We doesn't mean He, and Us doesn't mean Me....does it?.......any religious "experts" want to explain this to me, because it is bugging the you know what out of me! Simple question....How does a We become a He, and how does an Us become a Me?..........and, Christians/Jews, if God is a He and a Me, and He is the only God there is, then why is He so jealous?.......especially when there is a specific commandment against coveting which is synonomous with jealousy. I'm not an atheist, so please, no attacks. This is not a defense of the "Trinity Doctrine" either. One more question...sorry....If the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and Ishmael is the only God there is, then why does He/We? need four religions? Did He/We? mess up, and have to correct it? If He/We? did, then the idea of infallibility and perfection are obviously incorrect. But, all this We/He/Us/Me stuff is really confusing, don't you think?........Oh well, maybe someone out there has the answer, but, I won't hold my breath.
 
Some discussion about virgins and houris appears to be a misconception.

This is from a recent scholar

Virgins? What virgins?
It is widely believed that Muslim 'martyrs' enjoy rich sensual rewards on reaching paradise. A new study suggests they may be disappointed. Ibn Warraq reports
Special report: religion in the UK
Saturday January 12, 2002
The Guardian
In August, 2001, the American television channel CBS aired an interview with a Hamas activist Muhammad Abu Wardeh, who recruited terrorists for suicide bombings in Israel. Abu Wardeh was quoted as saying: "I described to him how God would compensate the martyr for sacrificing his life for his land. If you become a martyr, God will give you 70 virgins, 70 wives and everlasting happiness." Wardeh was in fact shortchanging his recruits since the rewards in Paradise for martyrs was 72 virgins. But I am running ahead of things

Since September 11, news stories have repeated the story of suicide bombers and their heavenly rewards, and equally Muslim scholars and Western apologists of Islam have repeated that suicide is forbidden in Islam. Suicide (qatlu nafsi-hi) is not referred to in the Koran but is indeed forbidden in the Traditions (Hadith in Arabic), which are the collected sayings and doings attributed to the Prophet and traced back to him through a series of putatively trustworthy witnesses. They include what was done in his presence that he did not forbid, and even the authoritative sayings and doings of his companions.
But the Hamas spokesman correctly uses the word martyr (shahid) and not suicide bomber, since those who blow themselves up almost daily in Israel and those who died on September 11 were dying in the noblest of all causes, Jihad, which is an incumbent religious duty, established in the Koran and in the Traditions as a divine institution, and enjoined for the purpose of advancing Islam. While suicide is forbidden, martyrdom is everywhere praised, welcomed, and urged: "By the Being in Whose Hand is my life, I love that I should be killed in the way of Allah; then I should be brought back to life and be killed again in His way..."; "The Prophet said, 'Nobody who enters Paradise will ever like to return to this world even if he were offered everything, except the martyr who will desire to return to this world and be killed 10 times for the sake of the great honour that has been bestowed upon him'." [Sahih Muslim, chapters 781, 782, The Merit of Jihad and the Merit of Martyrdom.]
What of the rewards in paradise? The Islamic paradise is described in great sensual detail in the Koran and the Traditions; for instance, Koran sura 56 verses 12 -40 ; sura 55 verses 54-56 ; sura 76 verses 12-22. I shall quote the celebrated Penguin translation by NJ Dawood of sura 56 verses 12- 39: "They shall recline on jewelled couches face to face, and there shall wait on them immortal youths with bowls and ewers and a cup of purest wine (that will neither pain their heads nor take away their reason); with fruits of their own choice and flesh of fowls that they relish. And theirs shall be the dark-eyed houris, chaste as hidden pearls: a guerdon for their deeds... We created the houris and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand..."
One should note that most translations, even those by Muslims themselves such as A Yusuf Ali, and the British Muslim Marmaduke Pickthall, translate the Arabic (plural) word Abkarun as virgins, as do well-known lexicons such the one by John Penrice. I emphasise this fact since many pudic and embarrassed Muslims claim there has been a mistranslation, that "virgins" should be replaced by "angels". In sura 55 verses 72-74, Dawood translates the Arabic word " hur " as "virgins", and the context makes clear that virgin is the appropriate translation: "Dark-eyed virgins sheltered in their tents (which of your Lord's blessings would you deny?) whom neither man nor jinnee will have touched before." The word hur occurs four times in the Koran and is usually translated as a "maiden with dark eyes".
Two points need to be noted. First, there is no mention anywhere in the Koran of the actual number of virgins available in paradise, and second, the dark-eyed damsels are available for all Muslims, not just martyrs. It is in the Islamic Traditions that we find the 72 virgins in heaven specified: in a Hadith (Islamic Tradition) collected by Al-Tirmidhi (died 892 CE [common era*]) in the Book of Sunan (volume IV, chapters on The Features of Paradise as described by the Messenger of Allah [Prophet Muhammad], chapter 21, About the Smallest Reward for the People of Paradise, (Hadith 2687). The same hadith is also quoted by Ibn Kathir (died 1373 CE ) in his Koranic commentary (Tafsir) of Surah Al-Rahman (55), verse 72: "The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: 'The smallest reward for the people of paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah [a Damascus suburb] to Sana'a [Yemen]'."
Modern apologists of Islam try to downplay the evident materialism and sexual implications of such descriptions, but, as the Encyclopaedia of Islam says, even orthodox Muslim theologians such as al Ghazali (died 1111 CE) and Al-Ash'ari (died 935 CE) have "admitted sensual pleasures into paradise". The sensual pleasures are graphically elaborated by Al-Suyuti (died 1505 ), Koranic commentator and polymath. He wrote: "Each time we sleep with a houri we find her virgin. Besides, the penis of the Elected never softens. The erection is eternal; the sensation that you feel each time you make love is utterly delicious and out of this world and were you to experience it in this world you would faint. Each chosen one [ie Muslim] will marry seventy [sic] houris, besides the women he married on earth, and all will have appetising vaginas."
One of the reasons Nietzsche hated Christianity was that it "made something unclean out of sexuality", whereas Islam, many would argue, was sex-positive. One cannot imagine any of the Church fathers writing ecstatically of heavenly sex as al-Suyuti did, with the possible exception of St Augustine before his conversion. But surely to call Islam sex-positive is to insult all Muslim women, for sex is seen entirely from the male point of view; women's sexuality is admitted but seen as something to be feared, repressed, and a work of the devil.
Scholars have long pointed out that these images are clearly drawn pictures and must have been inspired by the art of painting. Muhammad, or whoever is responsible for the descriptions, may well have seen Christian miniatures or mosaics representing the gardens of paradise and has interpreted the figures of angels rather literally as those of young men and young women. A further textual influence on the imagery found in the Koran is the work of Ephrem the Syrian [306-373 CE], Hymns on Paradise, written in Syriac, an Aramaic dialect and the language of Eastern Christianity, and a Semitic language closely related to Hebrew and Arabic.
This naturally leads to the most fascinating book ever written on the language of the Koran, and if proved to be correct in its main thesis, probably the most important book ever written on the Koran. Christoph Luxenberg's book, Die Syro-Aramaische Lesart des Koran, available only in German, came out just over a year ago, but has already had an enthusiastic reception, particularly among those scholars with a knowledge of several Semitic languages at Princeton, Yale, Berlin, Potsdam, Erlangen, Aix-en-Provence, and the Oriental Institute in Beirut.
Luxenberg tries to show that many obscurities of the Koran disappear if we read certain words as being Syriac and not Arabic. We cannot go into the technical details of his methodology but it allows Luxenberg, to the probable horror of all Muslim males dreaming of sexual bliss in the Muslim hereafter, to conjure away the wide-eyed houris promised to the faithful in suras XLIV.54; LII.20, LV.72, and LVI.22. Luxenberg 's new analysis, leaning on the Hymns of Ephrem the Syrian, yields "white raisins" of "crystal clarity" rather than doe-eyed, and ever willing virgins - the houris. Luxenberg claims that the context makes it clear that it is food and drink that is being offerred, and not unsullied maidens or houris.
In Syriac, the word hur is a feminine plural adjective meaning white, with the word "raisin" understood implicitly. Similarly, the immortal, pearl-like ephebes or youths of suras such as LXXVI.19 are really a misreading of a Syriac expression meaning chilled raisins (or drinks) that the just will have the pleasure of tasting in contrast to the boiling drinks promised the unfaithful and damned.
As Luxenberg's work has only recently been published we must await its scholarly assessment before we can pass any judgements. But if his analysis is correct then suicide bombers, or rather prospective martyrs, would do well to abandon their culture of death, and instead concentrate on getting laid 72 times in this world, unless of course they would really prefer chilled or white raisins, according to their taste, in the next.
 
Some where i've seen this article on other forums... and while it may be entertaining for some to read, I think it is rather tawdry. There are sensual allusions in many scriptures including the Song of Solomon in the Bible... and Sufi poetry sometimes has erotic imagery.

Such language is metaphorical and alludes to spiritual states in my view.

- Art :)
 
arthra said:
Some where i've seen this article on other forums... and while it may be entertaining for some to read, I think it is rather tawdry. There are sensual allusions in many scriptures including the Song of Solomon in the Bible... and Sufi poetry sometimes has erotic imagery.

Such language is metaphorical and alludes to spiritual states in my view.

- Art :)
you actually read all of that Art? -LOL- i gave up right after i saw the number of virgins in heaven & suicide bombers which has to do with what about the same God?:) . too many beliefs for me.
i would say metaphore too, but not sure what though...

2 cents
 
arthra said:
So there were very good reasons for the laws of Moses as given in Deuteronomy..... Baha'is also believe Jesus brought additional light to these ordinances and that Prophet Muhammad for His time brought ordinances that were suited for the time and culture....

I recall doing some research that the "sins of the father" spiritual law starts stated emphatically and simply but by the end of the Old Testament it's conditional on if the son follows in the steps of the father....
 
arthra said:
Baha'is believe religions or dispensations are like trees... they begin with vigour and in time begin to decay and split into various branches ... In time a new dispensation is called for to restore the original spiritual life and to restate the same spiritual truths for new conditions...

To me one of the best expositions of this subject can be found at

http://bahai-library.com/?file=stockman_encyclopedia_progressive_revelation.html

I tripped across a Christian reference or two to the idea of progresive revelation here and here but there are many references to Baha'i contributions to the idea:1, 2, 3, and 4 with some special topics here.

An interesting parallel to the theologic and Revelatory progression, there are aspects of a kind of family tree among the prophets or less direct connections. For example, as I recall it, Abraham moved from East to West while Zoroaster moved from West to East, and the relationships between Krishna and Buddha are not clear, not to mention the heritage of Revelators each refers to (again Zoroastrianism seems to play an interesting role, mentioning some similar Figures among them.)

One related topic is the parallel references, or complimentary, to the Flood - interestingly Zoroastrianism refers to a time of Ice and the Noad figure keeps pairs of animals in a cave....
 
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