A strange thing happened

[wil]

... I really didn’t do much but pray.

I kept remembering the time the disciples were fishing and having a dismal day, and Jesus called out to them to cast their net in a certain manner.

lol... you of all people... "didn't do much but pray." sometimes that is the most you can do!

cast your net on the right(eous) side of the boat!

nets being a method of capturing and retaining spirit, fish being ideas, food for thought, water the ethers of manifest ion, and boats a tool to cross obstacles...

 

[Dondi]

lol... you of all people... "didn't do much but pray." sometimes that is the most you can do!

cast your net on the right(eous) side of the boat!

nets being a method of capturing and retaining spirit, fish being ideas, food for thought, water the ethers of manifest ion, and boats a tool to cross obstacles...

Lol...yeah, you are so right.

I wanted to catch more than fish, ya know. (Matthew 4:19)

 

[dauer]

wil,

But how can we discard our lense? Is it not truth with a big T that he feels the tusk (or the sea is ice) and he feels the the tail ( the sea supplies), and he feels the trunk (the sea is a resort)?

I'm not talking about discarding the lens. I embrace my lens. I'm just addressing one who would claim that the lens is the way things really are. Not only are they all only feeling a part of the elephant, but even if they felt the whole thing, they're still blind. THere's still a huge chunk of perception that's missing. Lenses by definition distort light. They may make something big that's small, something small that's big, cause unusual contortions and anomalies, change the color. Some lenses are even created to overlay a particular design that doesn't exist. I had a pair of joke glasses when I was little. Whenever they picked up light it would look like a magen david coming from the place that the light emanated.

Is it not ok and TRUTH that we only have part of the equation and can't we be satisfied with that if we don't have the opportunity to get to the other part of the elephant?

I don't think you're disagreeing with me in these sentences, just misunderstanding. I agree with you that, at least at this stage of the game, we don't really have a way to verify truth even if we do have it. I'm not addressing that. It's one thing to claim the truth is we don't have the whole truth. It's quite another to claim that we do. And I'm all for being satisfied. I couldn't be satisfied unless I both embraced my experience without judgement and rationally engaged it at another time.

Is G!d choosing not to smile on the farmer when I get dry days on my vacation?

And that's where I'm saying the lens comes in. How can we know one way or another? How can we even say G!d exists? And I hope you were aware before addressing me with your question that I'm an agnostic, and if you weren't aware, at least now you are.

Do I think the farmer should devalue his experience because it may not be true? No. Do I think we should ignore that which is subjective? No. Do I think it would be healthy to recognize that it may not be the whole truth or that it may be a distortion of the truth? Yes, and if the farmer decides to have faith that it's actually true, whatever works for him.

Dondi,

Dauer,

You comments are duly noted. Logic is a perception also, no? What may seem logical to one, may not be logical to another.

Well, as a matter of definitions I'd say that actual logic is not a perception. Something may appear logical that is not. Something may appear illogical that is logical. And systems of logic may disagree in that they are really manmade structures based on presupposed axiomatic assumptions. But if you mean that rational thinking is also a type of perception I agree with you. It is my tendency to use rational thinking as a counter to direct experience and direct experience as a counter to rational thinking in my own way of coming to terms with things, in that rather than pursuing answers I usually try to pursue ambiguity. Unfortunately, as I think I've mentioned before, in a given conversation often only one side of that equation will be visible. But I would be just as quick to counter an assertion by a reductionist materialist that seemed particularly absolute. I'm not really trying to assert another truth so much as raise into question the whole idea that we can verify we've found truth at all, even if it is possible that we have it. And I suppose that in reality that is an attempt to assert another truth, just one that happens to view things on perhaps even radically relativistic terms.

Dauer

 

[Caimanson]

Hello Dondi,
This is interesting for me. When I read your testimony I realised I didn't care what the story had to say about your faith, it didn't make the message of christianity real for me.
I felt like one of those unbelievers that you get no response of, regardless of what you say to them. Five years ago I may have cheered your story, now it doesn't do anything for me.
It's not that I think your account is not true, it's more an indifference to the meaning you give to your facts.

The same person at a different point in time has a completely different take on the facts. The only thing I can think of is how subjectivity gives meaning to our experience.

 

[Dondi]

Hello Dondi,
This is interesting for me. When I read your testimony I realised I didn't care what the story had to say about your faith, it didn't make the message of christianity real for me.
I felt like one of those unbelievers that you get no response of, regardless of what you say to them. Five years ago I may have cheered your story, now it doesn't do anything for me.
It's not that I think your account is not true, it's more an indifference to the meaning you give to your facts.

The same person at a different point in time has a completely different take on the facts. The only thing I can think of is how subjectivity gives meaning to our experience.

That's fine, Caimanson. I'm not trying to convince anyone, just relating my own experiences. May I ask what your take is? Would it have made a difference if it were from a Jewish, Islamic, or Buddhist perspective?

 

[Caimanson]

That's fine, Caimanson. I'm not trying to convince anyone, just relating my own experiences. May I ask what your take is?

Well I don't have a strong take on it, just feels more like indiference.
I suppose in the back of my mind there is an element of "been there, done that" kind of feel, so I don't even have to probe the meaning of your accounts because I already have my own experiential understanding of them. Not that I was in your shoes, but that I have done and experienced similar things and beliefs.

In the past I ascribed a value to certain experiences because my perception of the events fitted very well with my worldview. The difference is that I have now moved away from that worldview, I am not the same person anymore so I perceive some elements of my past in a very different way.

Just imagine if in the future your beliefs were very different to what they are now, wouldn't you interpret your own story in a very different way?

Would it have made a difference if it were from a Jewish, Islamic, or Buddhist perspective?

I relate to the evangelical elements of your story, so if you had a different religious perspective with the same elements then my reaction would have been similar.

 

[Dondi]

I guess what I'm trying to get at is if you moved to a different worldview, and hence different experiences now, do you see anything of the sort of thing happening to you now? Not of an evangelistic sort, but you know, things clicking or seemingly coming together? Or have you completely stopped looking for it?

I don't want to get too personal, if you don't feel like discussing such, but since you mentioned "been there, done that" I am curious as to how that view changed or how you don't perceive it anymore. Was it something catastrophic, or was it a gradual thing?

 

[Caimanson]

I guess what I'm trying to get at is if you moved to a different worldview, and hence different experiences now, do you see anything of the sort of thing happening to you now? Not of an evangelistic sort, but you know, things clicking or seemingly coming together? Or have you completely stopped looking for it?

Well, things aren't happening because I'm not looking for them that much, and I'm not interpreting things out of the ordinary.
And that is the beauty of it, no need to strive for something to happen or for things to change in a certain way. It feels like freedom.

I don't want to get too personal, if you don't feel like discussing such, but since you mentioned "been there, done that" I am curious as to how that view changed or how you don't perceive it anymore. Was it something catastrophic, or was it a gradual thing?

I stopped a while ago, it was a gradual thing, as soon as I got rid of the fear and manipulation, belief vanished (no need for it) and then it was a matter of time till I came back to my senses, and one day I realised I wasn't a christian anymore.
In a way I didn't change that much, I just reverted to who I was before, whom I've always been.

 

[wil]

As was described earlier we can stack up a series of coincidences and say what are the odds of that? Or we can contemplate synchronicity and how the universe aligned to teach us this lesson or open our eyes to a new view. Or we can see a miracle right in front of us...and choose to praise our creator or deny that anything of merit occurred. Choice. Perspective.

What would you think of this situation if you were in my shoes?

You'd think the same thing I thought if you were in my shoes, had my life experiences, and saw it from my angle...and vice versa.

Sometimes we set the expectation to high, and then are disappointed. Sometimes we set it to low and can't see or understand what just happened. It is life, and you might like brussel sprouts...and I might not.

 

[Dondi]

Well, things aren't happening because I'm not looking for them that much, and I'm not interpreting things out of the ordinary.
And that is the beauty of it, no need to strive for something to happen or for things to change in a certain way. It feels like freedom.

Yet the thing about my experiences is that I wasn't striving for things to happen, none of it was really planned. I might have had a disposition for certain expectations, but it wasn't like I was trying to "force" anything. I sorta just went with the flow.

I stopped a while ago, it was a gradual thing, as soon as I got rid of the fear and manipulation, belief vanished (no need for it) and then it was a matter of time till I came back to my senses, and one day I realised I wasn't a christian anymore.
In a way I didn't change that much, I just reverted to who I was before, whom I've always been.

Maybe you tried too hard to be a Christian. I know what you mean by fear and manipulation. Some churches try to make cookie cuter christians out of folks, but it just doesn't work. Jesus treated people at the individual level. And I think you are right in just being true to yourself. You ought not be pressured into something that isn't you.

On the other hand, I hope at least that you have a mind that will explore possibilities. You never know what you might find.