pattimax
Somewhat returning
You're a converted Catholic, right?
Jesus (pbuh) - failed Prophet
- Thread starter Muslimwoman
- Start date
You're a converted Catholic, right?
Dondi
Well-Known Member
It's easy to come to think that Christians have some kind of "instant karma" thing going on, with the assumption that once saved, you don't have to worry about consequences of your actions, 'cause, well, you know, we're forgiven. I used to live like that myself, having been saved in my early teens, I took for granted the Grace of God, and ran with the pack in my own accord. Or that as long as I just to confessed my sins, then I could run back out into the world. Sadly, that is the state of many Christians today. The sacrifice Christ made on the Cross, then, becomes the very thing that brings one down, for one no longer believes he/she is responsible for their sins.
But the concept of grace isn't so that we can go out and sin and everything is honky dory. No, grace is there as a basis for forgiveness, but that grace is designed to propel you forward toward righteousness. It's God's way of saying, ok you messed up, now get up and sin no more.
It's kinda of like the ice skater that keeps falling down as she first learns to skate, but each time gets up and tries again and again until she perfects her routine. Soon she'll find that she falls down less and less. You get the picture here?
I don't think God wants us to live in constant fear of judgement. I believe He will be far more lenient to we are making progress and trying to live according to His Ways. Sure, we'll mess up time and time again, it's part of the sinful nature we have now. But the more we exercise in righteousness, the more righteous we'll become.
Pico
Well-Known Member
Jesus flat-out claimed to be God. In John 8:58 Jesus says: “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!”
The word I Am is the translation of the world YHWH, which is God's very own personal name. It's also translated as Jehovah, and Lord.
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Except that the New Testament was written in Greek and we do not get YHWH in the translation of Jesus' "I am".
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
Hi Pico
First may I point out that I do not want to get into an argument about Christianity or your beliefs, I was only trying to put right something said about my beliefs. I feel sure that if a Muslim said you believe x, y or z and it was totally untrue you would speak out.
The honest answer is that I am not G-d so cannot answer this question and I was not a witness to the crucifiction so cannot say whether it happened or not.
Why was he crucified? On a human level... politics. Pilate and the Romans saw him as an insurgent and therefore wanted him removed. Some things never change about humans. In reality I would think a handful of Jews, upset that he was converting Jews to Christianity played a part in accusations against him - however, that does not make the Jews responsible en masse for the crucifiction.
Why did G-d allow this? If it did happen, perhaps because it would remain in people's minds and therefore the message would also remain? Just a guess.
I know this doesn't agree with your beliefs but I can only state my own beliefs. Please don't say but the Bible says and hundreds of people witnessed, because I can say the same for Islam and the Quran but that doesn't mean you would accept it as truth, correct? We can only each state our personal beliefs.
Salaam
Pico
Well-Known Member
Oh yeah that's true. There are other parts where he gets attacked for claiming to be God. I don't have time to look them up now :/
Peace and greetings to all
My fellow CR members deserve nothing but the most acurate info on Islam, so allow me to rectify the above quote of my new convert sister
:...there is no debate in Islam as to the second coming of Christ [as], for his second coming is based on mutawatir hadiths ['Mutawatir' is a hadith that has been mass transmitted] and such hadiths have the same authenticity as the Quranic verses itself [for the undoubted authenticity of the Quran is based on mass transmission too...], thus the legal and informative implications of such hadiths carries the same weight as the Quranic verses themselves.
Those people who reject the entirety of the corpus of hadith and base their opinions on 'Quran alone' are non-Muslims by consensus, thus there is no such Muslim group as those that 'study the Quran alone'.
Here are my evidences:
Shaykh Jibril:
A Muslim of pure belief believes that Isa ibn Maryam, upon our Prophet and upon both of them peace, will certainly return. The proofs for this are mutawatir - mass-transmitted - and to reject them is the mark of misguidance and worse. In addition there are allusive proofs of his return in the Qur'an, among them:
{And He (the son of Mary) shall most certainly be a sign of the Last Hour. Have no doubt about it!} (43:61).
{There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them} (4:159).
Various Questions (2) Answered by Shaykh Gibril Haddad
Shaykh Hamza Yusuf said:
"...One is the neccessity of belief in mass-transmitted hadith, which have the status of the Quran in their legal and creedal consideration...To reject a mass transmitted hadith is akin to rejecting a verse in the Quran and hence is a type of disbelief threatening one's faith". [taken from book: The Creed of Imam Al-Tahawi, translated, introduced and annotated by Hamza Yusuf; it's a great book!]
The following is a statement of Shaykh Gibril Haddad of Sunnipath.com, regarding those who reject the Sunnah/Ahadith in it's totality [i.e, the 'Quran only' individuals/groups]:
And if someone were to say: "We do not take except what we find in the Qur'an", that person would be an apostate by consensus of the Community, and would not thereby be obligated to pray more than one rak`a between the going down of the sun and the dark of night, and another one at dawn [cf. 17:78]. For this is the least that has been called salat, and there is no limit (hadd) set for the most in that chapter. One who follows such a position is an idolatrous disbeliever (kafir mushrik)... The only ones to go that path are some of the extremist Rafidis upon whose apostasy consensus has formed in the Community. And success is from Allah Almighty and Exalted. Now, should someone follow only what the entire Community has agreed upon and nothing else, leaving all that they differed about with regard to what the texts mention: such a person is a transgressor (fasiq) by consensus of the Community. These two preliminaries make it obligatory to accept what is transmitted.
The Probativeness of the Sunna
So there you have it my dear peeps, the correct Islamic views from the experts themselves.
Peace to all.
T
Tao_Equus
Guest
Lmao Abdullah,
Your arrogance knows no bounds!! Consensus... what does that mean... do you mean by agreement of a bunch of Imams running around in their mercs telling people how to think?
Mohamed, on his death bed gave instructions for the order in which his revelations should be put and made the statement that his work was complete and should not be amended in any way. All hadiths are add on's after this fact and in that light are technically blasphemous.
Why do you feel its your job to jump in at every post MW makes and state or imply she is wrong. Can you not stand that a western woman is daring to show that these horrible hate-mongers that Islam calls its religious leadership are actually perverting the core of your faith? MW was not a child indoctrinated and beaten to memorise like some circus animal the teaching of some cruel teacher. She came to it on her own journey, willingly and with eyes and mind wide open. Perhaps you should stop being so arrogant and full of yourself and listen for once. If thats possible.
Tao
Your arrogance knows no bounds!! Consensus... what does that mean... do you mean by agreement of a bunch of Imams running around in their mercs telling people how to think?
Mohamed, on his death bed gave instructions for the order in which his revelations should be put and made the statement that his work was complete and should not be amended in any way. All hadiths are add on's after this fact and in that light are technically blasphemous.
Why do you feel its your job to jump in at every post MW makes and state or imply she is wrong. Can you not stand that a western woman is daring to show that these horrible hate-mongers that Islam calls its religious leadership are actually perverting the core of your faith? MW was not a child indoctrinated and beaten to memorise like some circus animal the teaching of some cruel teacher. She came to it on her own journey, willingly and with eyes and mind wide open. Perhaps you should stop being so arrogant and full of yourself and listen for once. If thats possible.
Tao
bob x
Well-Known Member
"Mohamed, on his death bed gave instructions for the order in which his revelations should be put and made the statement that his work was complete and should not be amended in any way"
I take it that you have a very reliable, multiply-transmitted hadith that tells you this is what Muhammad said?
I take it that you have a very reliable, multiply-transmitted hadith that tells you this is what Muhammad said?
T
Tao_Equus
Guest
Of course not. I am going by what Moslems keep insisting to me when I call into question the authenticity of the Q'urans origin. My own personal take is that its about as authentic and original a holywood script and not nearly so entertaining.
Do you now see it as your job to post a comment on every thread I post?
Do you now see it as your job to post a comment on every thread I post?
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
When did I convert Adbullah? That is not a question you can answer so is rhetorical.
Truly I worry for your soul when you have to start lying about the Quran to make your point. How will you explain that to Allah when you are judged?
Here is 43:61 by 3 translators - can you see the name Jesus (pbuh) anywhere or the term 'son of Mary'?
And lo! verily there is knowledge of the Hour. So doubt ye not concerning it, but follow Me. This is the right path. (43:61 - Pickthal)
And most surely it is a knowledge of the hour, therefore have no doubt about it and follow me: this is the right path. (43:61 Shakir)
M Asad's translation:
43:61 AND, BEHOLD, this [divine writ] is indeed a means to know [that] the Last Hour [is bound to come]; hence, have no doubt whatever about it, but follow Me: this [alone] is a straight way.
Do you see the word Isa or ibn in the Arabic?
Wainnahu laAAilmun lilssaAAati fala tamtarunna biha waittabiAAooni hatha siratun mustaqeemun
وَإِنَّهُ لَعِلْمٌ لِّلسَّاعَةِ فَلَا تَمْتَرُنَّ بِهَا وَاتَّبِعُونِ هَذَا صِرَاطٌ مُّسْتَقِيمٌ (43:61)
And? On the Day of Resurrection all of the Prophets (pbut) will stand as witnesses against their people. We know this because the Quran says so. So where does this verse suggest Jesus (pbuh) will return to earth?
When you show me a book of hadith that has had every weak and false and debated hadith removed I shall believe in them. While there are lies still contained in the books of hadith, you can follow them if you wish and answer for that when Allah asks you why.
I see time has not dulled your arrogance or your belief that you are somehow permitted to judge people. I shall stick with my belief that only Allah can judge us.
I fell in love, and she said (as she pulled the cigarette from my mouth and crushed it under her foot) "I want you around for a long time..."
That was all it took... I think faith in God brings us to similar conclusion...but we have to fall in love with Him.
Just a thought.
v/r
Q
The "Hadith" is not a holy book but rather a book of rules...yes? So, when Hadith contradicts Qu'ran...which supercedes which? (I know the correct answer, and I'm not Muslim...question is do some Muslims know the correct answer...apparently not).
v/r
Q
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
Oh bless, what a good woman
I said to my hubby last year after months of him nagging me to give up "right I am ready, let us give up together" and he said "you do it, I don't want to". I would find it too hard to have him smoking like a chimney while I am trying to give up. I think if he would agree to just smoke outside the home I would stand a betr chance but then I would never see my husband.
Very good point. I tend to think of smoking as my 'one sin' but of course there is nothing in the Scriptures that suggests you are allowed 'one sin'.
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
Hi Q
They are not even a book of rules. The hadiths are simply peoples accounts of what they remember regarding the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), so his actions, things he said, how he punished and forgave people - they are an example for us as to the correct way to live. There are even hadiths that have nothing to do with the Prophet and are about prominent Muslims after the death of the Prophet.
However, they were written after his death and peoples memories are notoriously unreliable, a vast majority over time were found by the scholars to be untrue and even now our books have many hadiths that the scholars deem 'weak' (and that is after 1400 years). or me it always begs the question why weak hadiths are still printed in the books? Is that not a clear way to allow people to go astray?
Salaam
madeinrussia89
Well-Known Member
It sometimes upsets me that some people regard Christians as not having to work at their faith that we just get a free ride to heaven, so to speak.
Faith without good works is dead. They work hand in hand. You cannot have faith without good works.
The point is that we do not get a free ride. As Christians, we must submit to God as well. No one is ever truly worthy of God's mercy, but through the grace of God with the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ we are saved. This doesn't mean we are not required to do good works or follow the rules just because we are saved.
As someone stated before, we serve God because we love God. With Christianity, you must work at the relationship as well.
Muslimwoman, you don't have to go through ANYONE to get to God in Christianity. God is right there for you to have a relationship with.
Faith without good works is dead. They work hand in hand. You cannot have faith without good works.
The point is that we do not get a free ride. As Christians, we must submit to God as well. No one is ever truly worthy of God's mercy, but through the grace of God with the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ we are saved. This doesn't mean we are not required to do good works or follow the rules just because we are saved.
As someone stated before, we serve God because we love God. With Christianity, you must work at the relationship as well.
Muslimwoman, you don't have to go through ANYONE to get to God in Christianity. God is right there for you to have a relationship with.
Pico
Well-Known Member
Well yes, Salvation is a free gift from God, and all who are forgiven get to live with God in the New Heaven and new Earth forever and ever.
But, that's not to say there's nothing to work for. Christians are supposed to work to have Christ live through them and bring others to Christ so they can be saved. And God rewards such dedication.
In Revelation, the first resurrection (which is also the Best resurrection) is when those who, as Paul as put it, "finished the race," get to reign with Christ for 1,000 years in the Millennial Kingdom. If we never run the race and work toward Christ, we will never get that reward.
madeinrussia89
Well-Known Member
You didn't bother to read my entire post did you.... >_>
Pico
Well-Known Member
Yes I did. I just wanted to add something.
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
Hi madeinrussia
That really seems to depend on who you speak to, many Christians tell me that without Jesus (pbuh) I cannot reach G-d and there seems to be differing views as to whether Jesus (pbuh) is G-d or a seperate entity.
Maybe explains my conversion?
Salaam