Muhammed in the Bible/Bahai Faith

[Sean H.]

Some discussion was asked for by someone else, so I gathered up a few things. Please feel free to discuss and add stuff I'm missing.

The Prophet Muhammad from Arabia circa has been one of the most misunderstood figures in the West. For centuries his name has endured insults, propaganda, and utter misrepresentations. Without a fair and objective mind, the truth will elude us.

Muhammad and the Bible

Just as many Jews do not believe that the Hebrew Bible refers to Jesus, so probably would many Christians not believe that the Bible refers to Muhammed. Let us all explore.

17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
(King James Bible, Genesis)

Muhammad is the descendant of Ishmael. Bahais interpret the twelve princes as to mean the twelve imams.

33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
(King James Bible, Deuteronomy)

Sinai is a reference to Moses. This is the mountain where he received his revelation (Exodus 19:20). Seir is a reference to Jesus. It is usually associated with the chain of mountains West and South of the Dead Sea extending through Jerusalem and Bethlehem, the birthplace of Jesus. Paran is a reference to Muhammad. It is the wilderness of the desert of Paran that Ishmael came to and settled into the city that became Makkah or Mecca. Mount Paran is a chain of mountains in the same region which the Arabs call the "Sarawat mountains." It is on Mount Paran where Muhammad received his revelation.

21:21 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.
(King James Bible, Genesis)

This and other quotes refer to Ishmael staying in Paran.

18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
18:16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
18:17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
(King James Bible, Deuteronomy)

In this chapter Moses is speaking to the Israelistes. He mentions one or two prophets in this passage. The first Prophet will be like Moses and will come from "thy brethren", the Israelites. The second one will come from "their brethren". Remember the two brothers, Isaac and Ishmael. Horeb is another way of referring to Mount Sinai. Mount Sinai has historically been thought to be in Israel since there's a mountain called Mount Sinai there. However, that mountain wasn't called that in Moses's time. Exodus 19:16 and 19:18 refers to occurences which seem to be a volcano. And, the only nearby volcanoes are in Arabia. And, remember that Arabia is where Ishmael and his descendants lived.

In my opinion, Deuteronomy 18:18-19 is also applicable to Jesus, just as many religious quotes can refer to more than one person. Note that Jesus never referred to himself as a Prophet while Muhammad clearly did.

14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me
16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
(King James Bible, John)

2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
(King James Bible, 1 John)

The word advocate and comforter are both the same word in Greek. For some reason, scholars have chosen to translate the same word differently. Advocate translated into Arabic is "Ahmad," one of the titles of Muhammad.

Many modern-day Christians have interpreted that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit. Keep in mind that this was not always the common Christian belief, and that translations have supported a particular interpretation. In 14:26 it reads "which is the Holy Ghost". The original greek has only two word for the 5 words in the King James translation: pneuma meaning Holy or saint and hagios , Spirit.

Another item to point out is that there is no word "the" in the Greek. The passage would be read as thus "But the Comforter, Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name ..." or "But the Comforter, Saint Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name ..." As far as the Greek is concerned both are correct. A translation of "the Holy Spirit" and a translation of "a Holy Spirit" are equivalent.

It's also important to mention that Baha'u'llah claims to be the Comforter, and perhaps moreso fulfills the role.

This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit had covenanted with you. Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory.
(Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 63)

 

[Sean H.]

Muhammad and the Bahai Faith

Abdul-Baha very eloquently speaks about the misperceptions attributed to Muhammad.

7: MUHAMMAD

Now we come to Muhammad. Americans and Europeans have heard a number of stories about the Prophet which they have thought to be true, although the narrators were either ignorant or antagonistic: most of them were clergy; others were ignorant Muslims who repeated unfounded traditions about Muhammad which they ignorantly believed to be to His praise.

Thus some benighted Muslims made His polygamy the pivot of their praises and held it to be a wonder, regarding it as a miracle; and European historians, for the most part, rely on the tales of these ignorant people.

For example, a foolish man said to a clergyman that the true proof of greatness is bravery and the shedding of blood, and that in one day on the field of battle a follower of Muhammad had cut off the heads of one hundred men! This misled the clergyman to infer that killing is considered the way to prove one's faith to Muhammad, while this is merely imaginary. The military expeditions of Muhammad, on the contrary, were always defensive actions: a proof of this is that during thirteen years, in Mecca, He and His followers endured the most violent persecutions. At this period they were the target for the arrows of hatred: some of His companions were killed and their property confiscated; others fled to foreign lands. Muhammad Himself, after the most extreme persecutions by the Qurayshites, who finally resolved to kill Him, fled to Medina in the middle of the night. Yet even then His enemies did not cease their persecutions, but pursued Him to Medina, and His disciples even to Abyssinia.

These Arab tribes were in the lowest depths of savagery and barbarism, and in comparison with them the savages of Africa and wild Indians of America were as advanced as a Plato. The savages of America do not bury their children alive as these Arabs did their daughters, glorying in it as being an honorable thing to do.[1] Thus many of the men would threaten their wives, saying, "If a daughter is born to you, I will kill you." Even down to the present time the Arabs dread having daughters. Further, a man was permitted to take a thousand women, and most husbands had more than ten wives in their household. When these tribes made war, the one which was victorious would take the women and children of the vanquished tribe captive and treat them as slaves.
[1 The Banu-Tamim, one of the most barbarous Arab tribes, practiced this odious custom.]

When a man who had ten wives died, the sons of these women rushed at each other's mothers; and if one of the sons threw his mantle over the head of his father's wife and cried out, "This woman is my lawful property," at once the unfortunate woman became his prisoner and slave. He could do whatever he wished with her. He could kill her, imprison her in a well, or beat, curse and torture her until death released her. According to the Arab habits and customs, he was her master. It is evident that malignity, jealousy, hatred and enmity must have existed between the wives and children of a household, and it is, therefore, needless to enlarge upon the subject. Again, consider what was the condition and life of these oppressed women! Moreover, the means by which these Arab tribes lived consisted in pillage and robbery, so that they were perpetually engaged in fighting and war, killing one another, plundering and devastating each other's property, and capturing women and children, whom they would sell to strangers. How often it happened that the daughters and sons of a prince, who spent their day in comfort and luxury, found themselves, when night fell, reduced to shame, poverty and captivity. Yesterday they were princes, today they are captives; yesterday they were great ladies, today they are slaves.

Muhammad received the Divine Revelation among these tribes, and after enduring thirteen years of persecution from them, He fled.[1] But this people did not cease to oppress; they united to exterminate Him and all His followers. It was under such circumstances that Muhammad was forced to take up arms. This is the truth: we are not bigoted and do not wish to defend Him, but we are just, and we say what is just. Look at it with justice. If Christ Himself had been placed in such circumstances among such tyrannical and barbarous tribes, and if for thirteen years He with His disciples had endured all these trials with patience, culminating in flight from His native land -- if in spite of this these lawless tribes continued to pursue Him, to slaughter the men, to pillage their property, and to capture their women and children -- what would have been Christ's conduct with regard to them? If this oppression had fallen only upon Himself, He would have forgiven them, and such an act of forgiveness would have been most praiseworthy; but if He had seen that these cruel and bloodthirsty murderers wished to kill, to pillage and to injure all these oppressed ones, and to take captive the women and children, it is certain that He would have protected them and would have resisted the tyrants. What objection, then, can be taken to Muhammad's action? Is it this, that He did not, with His followers, and their women and children, submit to these savage tribes? To free these tribes from their bloodthirstiness was the greatest kindness, and to coerce and restrain them was 21 a true mercy. They were like a man holding in his hand a cup of poison, which, when about to drink, a friend breaks and thus saves him. If Christ had been placed in similar circumstances, it is certain that with a conquering power He would have delivered the men, women and children from the claws of these bloodthirsty wolves.
[1 To Medina.]

Muhammad never fought against the Christians; on the contrary, He treated them kindly and gave them perfect freedom. A community of Christian people lived at Najran and were under His care and protection. Muhammad said, "If anyone infringes their rights, I Myself will be his enemy, and in the presence of God I will bring a charge against him." In the edicts which He promulgated it is clearly stated that the lives, properties and honor of the Christians and Jews are under the protection of God; and that if a Muhammadan married a Christian woman, the husband must not prevent her from going to church, nor oblige her to veil herself; and that if she died, he must place her remains in the care of the Christian clergy. Should the Christians desire to build a church, Islam ought to help them. In case of war between Islam and her enemies, the Christians should be exempted from the obligation of fighting, unless they desired of their own free will to do so in defense of Islam, because they were under its protection. But as a compensation for this immunity, they should pay yearly a small sum of money. In short, there are seven detailed edicts on these subjects, some copies of which are still extant at Jerusalem. This is an established fact and is not dependent on my affirmation. The edict of the second Caliph [1] still exists in the custody of the orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem, and of this there is no doubt.[2]
[1 Of Umar.]
[2 Cf. Jurji Zaydan's Umayyads and Abbasids, trans. D. S. Margoliouth.]

Nevertheless, after a certain time, and through the transgression of both the Muhammadans and the Christians, hatred and enmity arose between them. Beyond this fact, all the narrations of the Muslims, Christians and others are simply fabrications, which have their origin in fanaticism, or ignorance, or emanate from intense hostility.

For example, the Muslims say that Muhammad cleft the moon, and that it fell on the mountain of Mecca: they think that the moon is a small body which Muhammad divided into two parts and threw one part on this mountain, and the other part on another mountain.

Such stories are pure fanaticism. Also the traditions which the clergy quote, and the incidents with which they find fault, are all exaggerated, if not entirely without foundation.

Briefly, Muhammad appeared in the desert of Hijaz in the Arabian Peninsula, which was a desolate, sterile wilderness, sandy and uninhabited. Some parts, like Mecca and Medina, are extremely hot; the people are nomads with the manners and customs of the dwellers in the desert, and are entirely destitute of education and science. Muhammad Himself was illiterate, and the Qur'án was originally written upon the bladebones of sheep, or on palm leaves. These details indicate the condition of the people to whom Muhammad was sent. The first question which He put to them was, "Why do you not accept the Pentateuch and the Gospel, and why do you not believe in Christ and in Moses?" This saying presented difficulties to them, and they argued, "Our forefathers did not believe in the Pentateuch and the Gospel; tell us, why was this?" He answered, "They were misled; you ought to reject those who do not believe in the Pentateuch and the Gospel, even though they are your fathers and your ancestors."

In such a country, and amidst such barbarous tribes, an illiterate Man produced a book in which, in a perfect and eloquent style, He explained the divine attributes and perfections, the prophethood of the Messengers of God, the divine laws, and some scientific facts.

Thus, you know that before the observations of modern times -- that is to say, during the first centuries and down to the fifteenth century of the Christian era -- all the mathematicians of the world agreed that the earth was the center of the universe, and that the sun moved. The famous astronomer who was the protagonist of the new theory discovered the movement of the earth and the immobility of the sun.[1] Until his time all the astronomers and philosophers of the world followed the Ptolemaic system, and whoever said anything against it was considered ignorant. Though Pythagoras, and Plato during the latter part of his life, adopted the theory that the annual movement of the sun around the zodiac does not proceed from the sun, but rather from the movement of the earth around the sun, this theory had been entirely forgotten, and the Ptolemaic system was accepted by all mathematicians. But there are some verses revealed in the Qur'án contrary to the theory of the Ptolemaic system. One of them is "The sun moves in a fixed place," which shows the fixity of the sun, and its movement around an axis.[2] Again, in another verse, "And each star moves in its own heaven."[3] Thus is explained the movement of the sun, of the moon, of the earth, and of other bodies. When the Qur'án appeared, all the mathematicians ridiculed these statements and attributed the theory to ignorance. Even the doctors of Islam, when they saw that these verses were contrary to the accepted Ptolemaic system, were obliged to explain them away.
[1 Copernicus.]
[2 Cf. Qur'án 36:37.]
[3 Cf. Qur'án 36:38.]

It was not until after the fifteenth century of the Christian era, nearly nine hundred years after Muhammad, that a famous astronomer made new observations and important discoveries by the aid of the telescope, which he had 24 invented. [1] The rotation of the earth, the fixity of the sun, and also its movement around an axis, were discovered. It became evident that the verses of the Qur'án agreed with existing facts, and that the Ptolemaic system was imaginary.
[1 Galileo.]

In short, many Oriental peoples have been reared for thirteen centuries under the shadow of the religion of Muhammad. During the Middle Ages, while Europe was in the lowest depths of barbarism, the Arab peoples were superior to the other nations of the earth in learning, in the arts, mathematics, civilization, government and other sciences. The Enlightener and Educator of these Arab tribes, and the Founder of the civilization and perfections of humanity among these different races, was an illiterate Man, Muhammad. Was this illustrious Man a thorough Educator or not? A just judgment is necessary.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 17)
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To really learn about Muhammad's life a non-critical source should be used. The latter tend to judge Muhammad based on Western culture and Christianity. A rather good summary of His life is here
Six Lessons on Islam

 

[arthra]

Welcome Sean

Thanks for the posts Sean and welcome to the Baha'i Forum!

... Marzieh Gail has always been a favorite of mine...

- Art

 

[Sean H.]

Hi arthra and thanks. I'll pop in from time to time. I may post something else at another forum soon.

As a side note, I would make a couple of edits if I could, but I see no edit button, hehe.

If I'm missing anything you think is important, or messed up somewhere be sure to let me know.

 

[Ahanu]

Deuteronomy 18:18-19

This is debated between scholars

In my opinion, Deuteronomy 18:18-19 is also applicable to Jesus, just as many religious quotes can refer to more than one person

18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
(King James Bible, Deuteronomy)

3:22For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 3:23Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.
(King James Bible, Acts)

This is the specific reference to Jesus Christ. Also, this is the where critics say that the scholars of Islam are wrong.

many religious quotes can refer to more than one person

. . .But I am with you.

Paran is a reference to Muhammad. It is the wilderness of the desert of Paran that Ishmael came to and settled into the city that became Makkah or Mecca. Mount Paran is a chain of mountains in the same region which the Arabs call the "Sarawat mountains." It is on Mount Paran where Muhammad received his revelation. . .The second one will come from "their brethren". Remember the two brothers, Isaac and Ishmael. Horeb is another way of referring to Mount Sinai. Mount Sinai has historically been thought to be in Israel since there's a mountain called Mount Sinai there. However, that mountain wasn't called that in Moses's time. Exodus 19:16 and 19:18 refers to occurences which seem to be a volcano. And, the only nearby volcanoes are in Arabia. And, remember that Arabia is where Ishmael and his descendants lived.

**Wait!**
I need to check out other scriptures that mention Paran [Gen. 14:6, Num. 10:12; 12:16-13:3; Deut. 1:1] before I go any further, because I have to find out where all these places are.

 

[Sean H.]

Re: Deuteronomy 18:18-19

This is debated between scholars

3:22For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 3:23Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.
(King James Bible, Acts)

This is the specific reference to Jesus Christ. Also, this is the where critics say that the scholars of Islam are wrong.

Yeah, it seems that Peter is paraphrasing the Deuteronomy passage. I totally agree with him though.

. . .But I am with you.

**Wait!**
I need to check out other scriptures that mention Paran [Gen. 14:6, Num. 10:12; 12:16-13:3; Deut. 1:1] before I go any further, because I have to find out where all these places are.

Yeah, Paran is an interesting subject.

I think I may post on some of the criteria for prophets as espoused in the Bible. That may help our discussion.

 

[Ahanu]

Paran

Yeah, Paran is an interesting subject.

Now I have an idea of the places you are talking about.

Of course, you would be able to prove your argument based on Paran's exact location. It's one of the main reasons why people dismiss Deutoronomy 33:2 to speak of Muhammad. The traditional belief is that Paran is near Egypt in the Sinai peninsula. Paran was not near Mecca, but hundreds of miles away near Southern Palestine in the north eastern Sinai. Therefore, the unusual was happening, not the usual phenomena from volcanic activity, as some writers propose.

On the other hand, I believe that Exodus 19:16-19 speaks of a volcanoe.

You have probably read this, but check this link out. . .

What Did Jesus Really Say ? - The emigration (The Hijra)

When someone describes someone as having "come from" a certain town, this is usually interpreted as meaning that that person was born in that town. In other words, that town is this man's "home town." However, when one reads the words "God came from…," the meaning is quite different. It is quite obvious that the verse is not implying that a given location is God's "home town." Jews, Christians, and Muslims all affirm that God Almighty is Omnipresent* and Eternal. So, if this is the case, then we can not say that God Himself "came" or "went" to a given place since that would imply that there are times and places where God's knowledge and supervision is NOT present, and thus, it is possible to hide from God since I could go to a place where God has not "come" and is not present in His knowledge.
So if God is Omnipresent (present in knowledge everywhere at the same time), then we begin to realize that it is not God "Himself" that is "coming" from a given place, rather it is God's guidance and mankind's recognition of God that is being established in a given location. In other words, in a place where the true worship of God and the true knowledge of His message were absent, God blesses them with knowledge of Himself and His message. In this way, they become "acquainted" with God, and "meet" or "learn of" Him. In this fashion, although God Almighty was ever present in His knowledge, with them and all of His creation, they are only now beginning to comprehend His presence.

Wow, I would immediately say there is some BS in the library, because I went there to get different views of Deutoronomy 33:2. The argument is that this verse is speaking of the "LORD" (Yahweh, not Muhammad) coming. So, my question is, what do you think of the quote above? Could Deut. 33:2 speak of Moses and only him?

 

[Sean H.]

Re: Paran

Now I have an idea of the places you are talking about.

Of course, you would be able to prove your argument based on Paran's exact location. It's one of the main reasons why people dismiss Deutoronomy 33:2 to speak of Muhammad. The traditional belief is that Paran is near Egypt in the Sinai peninsula. Paran was not near Mecca, but hundreds of miles away near Southern Palestine in the north eastern Sinai. Therefore, the unusual was happening, not the usual phenomena from volcanic activity, as some writers propose.

On the other hand, I believe that Exodus 19:16-19 speaks of a volcanoe.

I agree that there is some disagreement in this area, and that's fine with me I do wish to say that in my opinion, the actual location of Paran is not all that important in the grand scheme of things.

I think people dismiss Muhammad in Deuteronomy for several reasons, the least of which being the geographic location of Paran.

Let's go back to volcanoes for the moment. There are no known volcanoes in Egypt (including the Sinai peninsula). There are volcanoes in Arabia, and on the island of Thera, several hundred miles away from Egypt and Sinai.

So, it seems more likely that Moses was in Arabia and not Egypt. You might enjoy this Wikipedia link Biblical Mount Sinai - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, it seems highly plausible that Abraham was in Arabia. You might enjoy this link PHARAOHS and CAMELS

If you go to the above link you'll see an argument that Camels in Egypt are an anachronism. The words below are taken from The Bible as History: How Science Unearths the Past

And what it seems to show is that the stories of the Bible that occurred earlier than around 800 BC have little or no support and are often contradicted outright. A key myth that was overturned was about Abraham having lived around 1800 BCE, and the wanderings of a people associated with him. This story has been completely undermined by a combination of literary and archeological analysis and there is no reason to believe it to be true.
For an example of the kind of analysis that is done, take simple facts like camels being used for transport. The Bible frequently mentions camel caravans during the various migrations of people, including those of Abraham. As Daniel Lazare says in his March 2002 Harper's article False Testament, nowadays we tend to take for granted that camels were always domesticated animals, routinely available to be used for transport purposes. But in actuality, studies of ancient animal bones show that as far as that region was concerned, camels were not used for such domestic purposes until well after 1000 BCE.
If you try to shift the dates of Abraham's travels to overcome problems like that with the camels, you run into other problems.

Subsequent research into urban development and nomadic growth patterns indicated that no such mass migration had taken place and that several cities mentioned in the Genesis account did not exist during the time frame Albright had suggested. Efforts to salvage the theory by moving up Abraham's departure to around 1500 B.C. foundered when it was pointed out that, this time around, Genesis failed to mention cities that did dominate the landscape during this period. No matter what time frame was advanced, the biblical text did not accord with what archaeologists were learning about the land of Canaan in the second millennium.
​

So basically Camels in Canaan (Modern day Israel+Gaza+West Bank) weren't domesticated until around 1000 BC and Abraham rode camels before that time. And, if you place Abraham after 1000 BC, there would be several cities in that region which would not be mentioned.

The following is from The Bible And Christianity -- The Historical Origins

This isn't the only problem with the account of the Age of the Patriarchs, either. There's the problem of the camels. We know from archaeological evidence that camels weren't domesticated until about the late second millenium B.C.E., and that they weren't widely used as beasts of burden until about 1000 B.C.E. - long after the Age of the Patriarchs. And then there's the problem of the cargo carried by the camels - "gum, balm and myrrh," which were products of Arabia - and trade with Arabia didn't begin until the era of Assyrian hegemony in the region, beginning in the 8th century B.C.E.

Okay, so camels being beasts of burden has problems being from Caanan/Israel/Palestine. And, the cargo carried were Arabian products.

BUT! What if Abraham came from Arabia? Wikipedia places camel domestication there at around 2500 BC which is enough for the timeframe of Abraham. Dromedary (arabian) camels are common there, and the cargo fits the location.

The Qur'an also says something interesting about Abraham

127. And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (with this prayer): "Our Lord! accept (this service) from us, for thou art the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.
(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 2)

Isma'il is Ishmael; the House is the Kaaba. Before Muhammad came, the became covered with idols and place which he later destroyed. Muhammad had it rebuilt. The Kaaba is in Arabia.

So what does that have to do with Paran? Well, Ishmael was banished to Paran and Abraham likely lived in Arabia and Paran was likely in Arabia and Ishmael and Abraham are said to have built the Kaaba which is in Arabia.

I also missed a quote about Paran

3:3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.
(King James Bible, Habakkuk)

Of course, I could totally be wrong about all of what I just posted. As always, in my opinion, the actual location where Abraham lived is not all that important in the grand scheme of things.

You have probably read this, but check this link out. . .

What Did Jesus Really Say ? - The emigration (The Hijra)

Thanks, interesting site. I didn't come across that page.

Wow, I would immediately say there is some BS in the library, because I went there to get different views of Deutoronomy 33:2. The argument is that this verse is speaking of the "LORD" (Yahweh, not Muhammad) coming. So, my question is, what do you think of the quote above? Could Deut. 33:2 speak of Moses and only him?

(My opinion) Of course Deuteronomy could speak of Moses and only him. It's also just as fair say that it's pointing to 3 different prophets. If you don't believe that Christ came from God then you'll deny his prophecies in the Old Testament. If you don't believe Muhammad came from God, you'll do the same.

As far as the lord and not prophet interpretation. It goes back to particular fun nuances of holy scripture.

12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.
(King James Bible, Isaiah)

(Referring to Jesus)
4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
(King James Bible, Acts)

If you take the passage from Isaiah literally, then Jesus cannot bring salvation because his name is not Jehovah. However, if you view it as though the spirit of God resides in Christ, then there is no contradiction.

As a Bahai, I believe that the spirit of God resided in many beings throughout history to teach and uplift humanity. Thus, when Moses came, the Lord came, when Jesus came the Lord came, when Muhammad came the Lord came, and when Baha'u'llah came the Lord came.

 

[Ahanu]

Re: Paran

The Qur'an also says something interesting about Abraham

127. And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (with this prayer): "Our Lord! accept (this service) from us, for thou art the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.
(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 2)

Isma'il is Ishmael; the House is the Kaaba. Before Muhammad came, the became covered with idols and place which he later destroyed. Muhammad had it rebuilt. The Kaaba is in Arabia.

That would be a nice quality time father and son activity.

Ishmael had a daughter that married Esau, who later had descendants of Edom. They were ancient people who were enemies of the Israelites.

18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
18:16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
18:17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
(King James Bible, Deuteronomy)

In this chapter Moses is speaking to the Israelistes. He mentions one or two prophets in this passage. The first Prophet will be like Moses and will come from "thy brethren", the Israelites. The second one will come from "their brethren".

If Moses was blessing them, why would he promise a prophet from outside of their community?

This is my last question. I have not looked at the links you posted up yet, but it looks good thus far.

 

[Ahanu]

If Moses was blessing them, why would he promise a prophet from outside of their community?

Oops, my last question is not clear. In other words, since Moses blessed the Israelites, and the Edomites were clearly against Israel throughout the old testament, how could the prophecy of a prophet from the enemy be considered a blessing to them? I was thinking from a Baha'i perspective about this one. . .History repeats itself. Maybe Muhammad was the turning point for the descendants of Ishmael. And really, as in the same fashion Christianity came from Judaism, the Baha'i Faith came from Islam, so here is what I am thinking. . .

After all, Jesus said "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: [...]"
(King James Bible, John 10:16)

Bahaullah is the one that will reunite the religions according to the Baha'i Faith. So this is how I was thinking all of this would work out.

 

[arthra]

Consider the relationship of Jethro to Moses in the Bible...

Here Jethro is recognized as a priest of Midian but not a Hebrew.. Moses sometimes defers to Jethro. a brief sumnmary of Jethro is at Jethro (Bible) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Midianites were descendend from Abraham and Keturah...

 

[Sean H.]

Oops, my last question is not clear. In other words, since Moses blessed the Israelites, and the Edomites were clearly against Israel throughout the old testament, how could the prophecy of a prophet from the enemy be considered a blessing to them?

Well, I profess to not knowing a ton about this subject. But, the Edomites and Ishmael are different. The Edomites are said to descend from Esau. Esau is said to have married Ishmael's daughter. However, Ishmael is also said to have 12 sons which is more than enough to have a separate line of descendants unconnected to Esau.

I'd rather view it from a spiritual perspective. Perhaps Moses would have wanted his followers to recognize Muhammad because they would greatly benefit from his teachings?
It might be helpful too to look at the life of Muhammad. I posted a link earlier. I'm sure there are other good sites for a summary of his life. I agree that to be a Prophet of God requires that he possess exemplary morals and teachings and that if he didn't, Moses certainly wouldn't talk about him.

This site has a good collection quotes from the Qur'an Basic Teachings of the Qur'an

A few I personally like

22 And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Lo! herein indeed are portents for men of knowledge.
(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 30 - The Romans)

79 It is not (possible) for any human being unto whom Allah had given the Scripture and wisdom and the prophethood that he should afterwards have said unto mankind: Be slaves of me instead of Allah; but (what he said was): Be ye faithful servants of the Lord by virtue of your constant teaching of the Scripture and of your constant study thereof.
(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 3 - The Family Of Imran)

263 A kind word with forgiveness is better than almsgiving followed by injury. Allah is Absolute, Clement.
264 O ye who believe! Render not vain your almsgiving by reproach and injury, like him who spendeth his wealth only to be seen of men and believeth not in Allah and the Last Day. His likeness is as the likeness of a rock whereon is dust of earth; a rainstorm smiteth it, leaving it smooth and bare. They have no control of aught of that which they have gained. Allah guideth not the disbelieving folk.
(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 2 - The Cow)

3 Those who love the life of the world more than the Hereafter, and debar (men) from the way of Allah and would have it crooked: such are far astray.
(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 14 - Abraham)

Muhammad brought a number of teachings not merely for the individual but for society. And, because of Muhammad the Arabs were in a period of enlightenment while the medieval world was in the dark ages. All manner of sciences, philosophy, and culture became advanced.
The following is rather long, but I found it especially poignant. I'll put it in lines. Read it if you wish.

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"The Bahá'í view on that subject is that the Dispensation of Muhammad, like all other Divine Dispensations, has been fore-ordained, and that as such forms and integral part of the Divine Plan for the spiritual, moral and social, development of mankind, It is not an isolated religious phenomenon, but is closely and historically related to the Dispensation of Christ, and those of the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh. [...]

"You should also cautiously emphasize the truth that due to the historical order of its appearance, and also because of the obviously more advanced character of its teachings, Islam constitutes a fuller revelation of God's purpose for mankind. The so-called Christian civilization of which the Renaissance is one of the most striking manifestations is essentially Muslim in its origins and foundations. When medieval Europe was plunged in darkest barbarism, the Arabs regenerated and transformed by the spirit released by the religion of Muhammad were busily engaged in establishing a civilization the kind of which their contemporary Christians in Europe had never witnessed before. It was eventually through Arabs that civilization was introduced to the West. It was through them that the philosophy, science and culture which the old Greeks had developed found their way to Europe. The Arabs were the ablest translators, and linguists of their age, and it is thanks to them that the writings of such well-known thinkers as Socrates, Plato and Aristotle were made available to the Westerners. It is wholly unfair to attribute the efflorescence of European culture during the Renaissance period to the influence of Christianity. It was mainly the product of the forces released by the Muhammadan Dispensation.

"From the standpoint of institutionalism Islam far surpasses true Christianity as we know it in the Gospels. There are infinitely more laws and institutions in the Qur'án than in the Gospel. While the latter's emphasis is mainly, not to say wholly, on individual and personal conduct, the Qur'án stresses the importance of society. This social emphasis acquires added importance and significance in the Bahá'í Revelation. When carefully and impartially compared, the Qur'án marks a definite advancement on the Gospel, from the standpoint of spiritual and humanitarian progress.

"The truth is that Western historians have for many centuries distorted the facts to suit their religious and ancestral prejudices. The Bahá'ís should try to study history anew, and to base all their investigations first and foremost on the written Scriptures of Islam and Christianity."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, April 27, 1936)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 494)
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I was thinking from a Baha'i perspective about this one. . .History repeats itself. Maybe Muhammad was the turning point for the descendants of Ishmael. And really, as in the same fashion Christianity came from Judaism, the Baha'i Faith came from Islam, so here is what I am thinking. . .

I like your thoughts.

It's very true though. Although Ishmael was the son of Abraham, a very spiritual man in my opinion, his descendants lost their way. Eventually the Kaaba which was supposed to symbolize monotheism became a house for idol worship.

Bahaullah is the one that will reunite the religions according to the Baha'i Faith. So this is how I was thinking all of this would work out.

Indeed

Rend asunder the veils of your idle fancies! This is your Lord, the Almighty, the All-Knowing, Who hath come to quicken the world and unite all who dwell on earth. Turn unto the Dayspring of Revelation, O people, and tarry not, be it for less than the twinkling of an eye. Read ye the Evangel and yet refuse to acknowledge the All-Glorious Lord? This indeed beseemeth you not, O concourse of learned men!
(Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 57)

This is all made easier by the teachings of the oneness of the Manifestations.

He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 66)

Know thou assuredly that the essence of all the Prophets of God is one and the same. Their unity is absolute.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 78)

The measure of the revelation of the Prophets of God in this world, however, must differ. Each and every one of them hath been the Bearer of a distinct Message, and hath been commissioned to reveal Himself through specific acts. It is for this reason that they appear to vary in their greatness. [...]

It is clear and evident, therefore, that any apparent variation in the intensity of their light is not inherent in the light itself, but should rather be attributed to the varying receptivity of an ever-changing world. Every Prophet Whom the Almighty and Peerless Creator hath purposed to send to the peoples of the earth hath been entrusted with a Message, and charged to act in a manner that would best meet the requirements of the age in which He appeared. God's purpose in sending His Prophets unto men is twofold. The first is to liberate the children of men from the darkness of ignorance, and guide them to the light of true understanding. The second is to ensure the peace and tranquillity of mankind, and provide all the means by which they can be established.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 78)