Buddism and the Baha'i Faith

[arthra]

i think that the crux of our disagreements on these issues is due to the canon from which the Baha'i have extracted the Buddhist teachings. these are Pali canon Suttas, which generally correspond with the Hinyana tenet system.

you know... i wonder if i should mention this here... all the Buddhas of the Three Times are one and the same... moreover, they are we and we are they and in this, there is no "we" or "they".

sometimes, it seems like Buddhas are presented as something different than us, something outside or beyond.. somehow something we have to strive for or achieve. Buddhanature is inherent in all beings. we do not have to strive for, reach, work or attain to it. it is ours already, we simply do not recognize it. of course, this reflects my Mahayana view and may not be agreed upon by practiconers of the Two Vehicles.

Having discussed some of these points before with you Vajra I think it would good to maybe make a few statements here that may help clarify things for you....

I don't think Baha'is are saying the Pali canon or Hinyana School is any more acceptable than the Mahayana school or the Buddhist canon of scriptures say in China, Tibet etc.

There are probably two main Baha'i scholars taht have written in this field as you may have gathered already... they are Moojan Momen who has used the Pali Buddhist writings and Jamshed Fozdar who in my view used Chinese texts and others as well....

We Baha'is are not in my view going to say that one Buddhist scripture is superior to another.... Buddhist scriptures and canons are a vast array... How they developed over time and were used is a study in itself.


For Baha'is, the Writings of Baha'u'llah and the Bab have primary authority and Abdul-Baha Who was Baha'u'llah's son was the Authorized Interpreter of His Father's Writings. We have many of the Writings translated in English but there are many untranslated. It was Abdul-Baha and Hs grandson Shoghi Effendi that explained that the Baha'u'llah was the Buddha Maitrya-Amitabha the expected Buddha to come...now this explanation is not an extensive one but a statement nonetheless, so Fozdar and Momen have offered up their studies.

Having studied much of the Hinayana School before I was a Baha'i, for me Baha'u'llah is a "Buddha". But our word for this "Buddha" concept is not what it is known as in Buddhism, it is called "Manifestation of God" and I realize for you that term "God" is a problem for you, but we could I think slightly rephrase it as a "Manifestation of an Unknowable Essence". I think a study of this concept will explain much.

So in our view "we are not they" .... A Manifestation is a unique entity from "conception" that is physically like us as humans, however the soul or "heart" perfectly reflects the Unknowable Essence from the beginning. The rest of us are not born with this perfection... We hopefully and potentially can find it, but it is not automatcially with us as it is with the Manifestation(s).

The Buddhist legends of the Buddha Sakyamuni being a perfect being from the beginning I think are perfectly understandable from the Baha'i view. His mother Maya has a dream of the White Elephant entering her side and the birth is painless... The new born Buddha takes steps and speaks. He does not need to be taught in a school but instructs teh instructor, and so on. This to us is a beautiful allegory of how a Manifestation comes into the world.

We Baha'is believe these same signs as portrayed in Buddhist legend this occurred identically with the Christ and later the Bab.

Peace,

- Art

 

[9Harmony]

I learned something new today.

Buddha said when making reference to how we would know the fifth Buddha...
"he will be know as Maitreya, which means He Whose name is "kindness"."

Baha'u'llah's given name, Husayn, is Arabic for "kindness".

How cool is that?

Just thought I'd share.

Loving Greetings, Harmony

 

[Vajradhara]

Namatse Art,


thank you for the response.

oh, i'm not suggesting that the Baha'i are explicitly saying that the Hinyana tenet system is correct, however that is the implication inherent in your view that this is the Dharma ending age, and that this means that the Dharma is "misunderstood" by us.

obviously, this is a valid view point, one which i just don't happen to agree with which is just fine, from my vantage point.

Shakyamuni was a Bodhisattva in his previous lives which is why he arose in this historical epoch, not so much that he realized anything in this life. in point of fact, when he talks about his meeting with Dipankara, he says that he realized No Dharma whatsoever.

at any rate... it's a complex subject to be sure

 

[arthra]

I learned something new today.

Buddha said when making reference to how we would know the fifth Buddha...
"he will be know as Maitreya, which means He Whose name is "kindness"."

Baha'u'llah's given name, Husayn, is Arabic for "kindness".

How cool is that?

Just thought I'd share.

Loving Greetings, Harmony

I hadn't thought of that! Thanks Harmony.... I apprecaite all you've been doing on that other forum as well! Nice going...

Some where i had a translation of a Sutra about Maitreya that has a commenatry connecting Maitrya with Saoshyans the Zoroastrian Saviour that was also expected.... seems the translator believed there could be a possible blend or connection between Buddhism and Zoroastrianism in the area... If I can i'll locate it and share it here!

- Art

 

[Ocean_Drop]

I recognise this statement from the BCI prophecy fulfilled site. It's sadly not true though, Husayn is Farsi for "Beautiful". None of Baha'u'llah's Names (both birth names and titles) translate into "Kindness".

This doesn't take anything away from the proof though. Consider how the Jews awaited a Messiah whos name was Immanuel (translation: God with us). Although Christ's name wasn't this, He fulfilled this in that He was indeed "God with us". Likewise, there can be no doubt that Baha'u'llah was the epitome of kindness - i.e. Maitreya.

Warmest,
Ocean Drop

 

[9Harmony]

I recognise this statement from the BCI prophecy fulfilled site. It's sadly not true though, Husayn is Farsi for "Beautiful". None of Baha'u'llah's Names (both birth names and titles) translate into "Kindness".

Warmest,
Ocean Drop

Darn! Sorry.

What about the Arabic translation?

 

[Ocean_Drop]

Nope... noe the Arabic translations. It's nothing to deter us though... consider the parallel with Immanuel/Christ!

Isa 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

This hasn't deterred some 2 billion Christians from accepting Christ! Likewise,

"He will be known as Maitreya" = "He will be known as kindness". There is no doubt that Baha'u'llah was renowned for His kindness.

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste ocean drop,

thank you for the reply.

I recognise this statement from the BCI prophecy fulfilled site. It's sadly not true though, Husayn is Farsi for "Beautiful". None of Baha'u'llah's Names (both birth names and titles) translate into "Kindness".

This doesn't take anything away from the proof though. Consider how the Jews awaited a Messiah whos name was Immanuel (translation: God with us). Although Christ's name wasn't this, He fulfilled this in that He was indeed "God with us". Likewise, there can be no doubt that Baha'u'llah was the epitome of kindness - i.e. Maitreya.

Warmest,
Ocean Drop

all Buddhas of the Three Times teach the same thing. i'll admit that my knowledge of your scriptures is slight at best.

can you explain the Baha'i teaching on the non-existence of a soul to me?

 

[arthra]

Regarding Maitreya:

In a little while I'll post information from a book "Anagatavamsa Desana: The Sermon of the Chronicle to Be" Translated by Udaya Meddagama and with into and notes by John Clifford Holt. First edition published in 1993.

This was the book I was looking for earlier... It has more information about the Maitreya...actually it's suspected the name has it's roots in Mitra or friend and Mitra was also associated with the Sun and hence with light.

Anyway I'll post more later. I found some interesting associations i think.

- Art

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

just for the sake of discussion..

you do realize that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was Maitreya, don't you?

you do also realize that L. Ron Hubbard was Maitreya as well?

there are many beings that have proclaimed themselves as Maitreya, however, this cannot be so. i realize that this is a difficult thing to hear and perhaps i have no business bringing this to the fore in our ongoing discussion, i have no intention of offering offense.

i am of the impression that, despite any argument that i may make, this issue has already been decided for the Baha'i posters in this thread. i'm not entirely certain of the reason that Baha'u'llah has to be Maitreya... i honestly don't know why.

it seems to me that the Baha'i have a strong enough faith as it is based upon their own scriptures and teachings no real need for anything else....

 

[arthra]

Namaste all,

just for the sake of discussion..

you do realize that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was Maitreya, don't you?

you do also realize that L. Ron Hubbard was Maitreya as well?

there are many beings that have proclaimed themselves as Maitreya, however, this cannot be so. i realize that this is a difficult thing to hear and perhaps i have no business bringing this to the fore in our ongoing discussion, i have no intention of offering offense.

i am of the impression that, despite any argument that i may make, this issue has already been decided for the Baha'i posters in this thread. i'm not entirely certain of the reason that Baha'u'llah has to be Maitreya... i honestly don't know why.

it seems to me that the Baha'i have a strong enough faith as it is based upon their own scriptures and teachings no real need for anything else....

My friend Vajra wrote:

"i honestly don't know why"?

I think Vajra if you review the first post on this thread you'll read the following:

"Shoghi Effendi specifically identifies Bahá'u'lláh with the Maitreya Buddha (GPB 95) and as the fifth Buddha "(GPB 94).

"Buddhist prophecy that the Maitreya Buddha will inaugurate an era of universal peace and tranquillity is regarded by Bahá'ís as having been fulfilled by Bahá'u'lláh's advent and teachings on world peace."

So that in itself to Baha'is is significant enough to explore it.

No it doesn't offend us that you would suggest that as you wrote:

"you do also realize that L. Ron Hubbard was Maitreya as well? there are many beings that have proclaimed themselves as Maitreya, however, this cannot be so."

and if it would offend you I won't post the material I found because our first priority would be not to offend you in any way!

- Art

 

[Susma Rio Sep]

Hard of hearing

About Baha'i idea of the maitreya, we have also the difficulty of people taking Buddha for a god, even though Vaj is seemingly engaged in a hopeless task to get people to see that Buddhists don't take him for a god.

Consider this excerpt from the entry on Buddhism right here in this website of Brian:

The nature of Buddha himself is regarded in different ways by different people, and there are a great number of legends that surround his existence. To some he was simply a very wise man with great things to teach, whilst to others he is a god in his own right, either as part of the traditional Hindu pantheon (as an avatar of Vishnu), or else as single entity above all others. -- bolding furnished

So, it is really hard even impossible to convince others what we are or what we want others to take us for what we hold ourselves to be and what our beliefs really are.

In reality, it is others who decide what we are and what we say -- no matter our most profound and expatiated explanations otherwise.

Susma Rio Sep

 

[arthra]

About Baha'i idea of the maitreya, we have also the difficulty of people taking Buddha for a god, even though Vaj is seemingly engaged in a hopeless task to get people to see that Buddhists don't take him for a god.

Consider this excerpt from the entry on Buddhism right here in this website of Brian:



So, it is really hard even impossible to convince others what we are or what we want others to take us for what we hold ourselves to be and what our beliefs really are.

In reality, it is others who decide what we are and what we say -- no matter our most profound and expatiated explanations otherwise.

Susma Rio Sep

You know Susma,

I was thinking that since this as an issue that has already come up a few times, maybe it would be best here to let this issue be dormant awhile... as it is a sore point and move on to another issue ...

It's also important I think to go ahead and accept what people express as their belief or position and continue to dialogue with them and share things.

By the way, I think from reading Vajra's posts, he would perhaps align his thinking with that of Robert Thurman a well known spokesman of Tibetan Buddhism who was quoted as saying:

"Buddhism had imparted its metaphysics of non-dualism, its psychology of liberative contemplation, its educational epistemology
that privileges experience over dogmatic theory, and its ethical nonviolence related to the emphasis on vegetarianism. Today, Indians are ambivalent about Buddhism, respecting Buddha as an incarnation of God, and such foreign Buddhists as the Dalai Lama as holy persons, while feeling somewhat uncomfortable with the Buddhist critique of the caste system, insistence on nonviolence and antimilitarism, focus on asceticism, nonacceptance of a creator god, and so forth."

See:

http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/s_es/s_es_thurm_EAA_frameset.htm

Also there's a site with an interview with Thurman about Buddhism:

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/news/media/99/robertThurman/

But I'm sure he can speak for himself.

The Baha'i approach would be to appreciate Vajra's view but not to enter into conflict about it... in time i think with that appreciation and allowance for different views we can move ahead.

- Art

 

[berinwitness]

So, it is really hard even impossible to convince others what we are or what we want others to take us for what we hold ourselves to be and what our beliefs really are.

In reality, it is others who decide what we are and what we say -- no matter our most profound and expatiated explanations otherwise.

Susma Rio Sep

Not impossible at all. We just need to learn how Buddhists think. It will take time, but the Baha'is are willing. Remember that we believe that the Blessed Lord Siddartha Gautama was ALWAYS right in whatever He taught. It's just that He was speaking to an audience with a different philisophical background from what we grew up with.

And as for others deciding what you are and what you say - I'm sure many Baha'is have had experiences with people trying to twist our words and convince us that we actually believe something quite different from what we clearly SAY we believe. It's happened to me and I find it annoying, so I don't want to do it to you or anyone else.

 

[Ocean_Drop]

you do realize that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was Maitreya, don't you?

As Muslims believe that Muhammed was the final prophet, they feel Muhammed must fulfill all the prophecies of future prophets, including Kalki Avatar and Maitreya. They forget though that Christ is still due, and the Bible and Quran associate this with a "new creation" and a completely new age, just like what Hindu's and Buddhists associate with the coming of Kalki/Maitreya. i.e. Return of Christ = Maitreya

As I said, both events are associated with the same transformation in the world: -

KALKI
He will then re-establish righteousness upon the
earth, and the minds of those who live at the end of
the Kali age shall be awakened, and shall be as
pellucid as crystal. The men who are thus changed by
virtue of that peculiar time shall be as the seeds of
human beings, and shall give birth to a race who shall
follow the laws of the Krita age, the Age of Purity
(Vishnu Purana 4:24)

MAITREYA
"[His] reappearance will knit and bind together all men and women of goodwill throughout the world, irrespective of religion or nationality..." (The Tibetan Mahatma).

CHRIST
Re 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;

Re 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Investigate the mission of Baha'u'llah and see if it is compatible with the above!

Warmest,
Ocean Drop

 

[iBrian]

The trouble is indeed that we do not apparently seem to have left any age and entered any new one.

And it seems that many cultures have some form of future "Golden Age" to dream of. To some it's the return of Christ. To others it's the return of Brian Boru. To fit any single figure into all of these different interpretations it seems would require a substantial amount of bending of such traditions.

 

[9Harmony]

The trouble is indeed that we do not apparently seem to have left any age and entered any new one.

And it seems that many cultures have some form of future "Golden Age" to dream of. To some it's the return of Christ. To others it's the return of Brian Boru. To fit any single figure into all of these different interpretations it seems would require a substantial amount of bending of such traditions.

Dearest Brian,

That is precisely the point. It may not seem like one age ended and another began, but why should it, God has never worked that way. Scriptures allude to sudden changes, that was also the case when Jesus came, they expected the Messiah to come with power and great glory and when a humble carpenter declared that it was Him, they denied Him because it didn't fit in with their perception of how it was supposed to happen. This perceived knowledge becomes a veil between us and the Divine. In every age, people have shunned the manifestation of God because of this reason. So why should we think he will do things differently this time. Why would he say 'many are called but few are chosen' if it would really be obvious.

"Though the dynamic dual process within society is shrouded in chaos, it is, in fact, taking place. With each passing day the pace quickens and the world condition-strange as it seems-is growing worse and better at the same time." Shoghi Effendi, Advent of Divine Justice, p 61

The odds of one figure fulfilling all of the prophecies of all of the religions simultaneously is astronomical. But yet, Baha'u'llah claims just that. As far as bending traditions, that really is not the case, from the literalist viewpoint that may be the way it seems, but from a spiritual perspective everything falls into place easily, in fact it is surprisingly simple. None other but God could accomplish this task. It is beyond the scope of comprehension for any man to fathom.

In order for us to begin to comprehend the scope of His mission we must first detach ourselves from what we think we know, acquired knowledge can act as a veil between us and the truth.

Baha'u'llah tells us how we can arrive at the point of certitude.

"O My brother! When a true seeker determineth to take the step of search in the path leading unto the knowledge of the Ancient of Days, he must, before all else, cleanse his heart, which is the seat of the revelation of the inner mysteries of God, from the obscuring dust of all acquired knowledge, and the allusions of the embodiments of satanic fancy. He must purge his breast, which is the sanctuary of the abiding love of the Beloved, of every defilement, and sanctify his soul from all that pertaineth to water and clay, from all shadowy and ephemeral attachments. He must so cleanse his heart that no remnant of either love or hate may linger therein, lest that love blindly incline him to error, or that hate repel him away from the truth...Only when the lamp of search, of earnest striving, of longing desire, of passionate devotion, of fervid love, of rapture, and ecstasy, is kindled within the seeker's heart, and the breeze of His loving-kindness is wafted upon his soul, will the darkness of error be dispelled, the mists of doubts and misgivings be dissipated, and the lights of knowledge and certitude envelop his being." Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p 264-265

Every Baha'i I know has arrived at this conclusion by letting go of our preconceived ideas and allowing God's grace to infuse us with insights previously unthought of. It is a brand new world, undreamt of prior to our acceptance of Baha'u'llah. The future is glorious.

Loving Greetings, Harmony

 

[arthra]

The trouble is indeed that we do not apparently seem to have left any age and entered any new one.

And it seems that many cultures have some form of future "Golden Age" to dream of. To some it's the return of Christ. To others it's the return of Brian Boru. To fit any single figure into all of these different interpretations it seems would require a substantial amount of bending of such traditions.

The expectation of Christ's return reached a peak early in the nineteenth century when several movements began pointing to it. One of them was known as the Millerite movemnt in the US and other movements were simultaneously occurring in Moslem countries expecting the Mahdi as well as the expected return of the Twelfth Imam... The Baha'i Faitrh sees itself as the fulfillment of these prophecies.

We Baha'is see things in terms of prophecy as well as being aware of the great social changes and challenges that are upon the human race.

Most of us are not used to thinking in such grand terms... and sometimes it requires a grasp of vast historical and social trends to see it... We Baha'is have a perspective that includes centuries of time that is revealed in our Writings.

I think one of the changes that should be obvious to most of us is the world perspective that has been increasingly apparent over the past hundred years or so...

More and more People nowadays are thinking globally than ever before... thanks to the internet, satellites, and international commerce ...This also is our view and is very evident in our Writings.

Our principles call for the establishment of world eace through a representative federal government, an international court of arbitration, elimination of racial prejudice, and reducing the extremes of wealth and poverty.

Only the conditons today seem to be most cogently suited to our perspective.

- Art

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings, Vaj!

V>Can you explain the Baha'i teaching on the non-existence of a soul to me?

?!

There IS no such Baha'i teaching!

Humans most definitely have eternal souls, and our scriptures make this extremely clear.

On another topic, as to people like L. Ron Hubbard, the Baha'i scriptures explicitly state there will be no new Divine Messenger for some centuries to come, and that anyone who claims to be one in the meantime is lying. So for Baha'is, this really isn't an issue.

And on yet a third, I'll agree that one of the best Baha'i sources on Buddha and Buddhism is Fozdar's "Buddha Maitreya Has Appeared."

Regards,

Bruce

 

[Vajradhara]

Namasker bruce,


thank you for the post.

and this is but one reason why Baha'u'llah cannot be Maitreya there are other criteria that we can use as well, though it can become a bit pendantic.

as i've said before... the Baha'i can view this in any manner that they so choose, it is your scripture and so forth.

however, as a point of discussion, this is not a view that most Buddhists would share.

viva la differance, mes amis!