Are Theosophy & Anthroposophy Religions?

[Nick the Pilot]

Bruce, you said,

"...the difference between Theosophy and Anthroposophy and religion, is that anyone (within the rules) may join a religion and participate. Whereas in order to take theosophy or anthroposophy into oneself, one has to be properly prepared - that is in your Budhi/Manas capabilities."

--> Theosophy has clear-cut steps; people become students, then Chelas (accepted students of Masters) then Masters. At the student level anyone can (and is encouraged to) participate in Theosophical discussions. It is at the higher (Chela and Master) levels that a certain amount of preparation is required.

"Therefore it is impossible to push these ideas down anyone's throat."

--> True. Theosophy, more than any other philosophy, requires people to think for themselves. Theosophy demands that people develop extremely strong critical-thinking skills and point out any ideas that do not make sense. People must choose a difficult path like Theosophy out of their own free will; it is impossible for it to be imposed on anyone.

"Subsequently, any form of proselytisingly is out of the question."

--> True. Theosophy forces people not to be proselytizers.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Bruce, I wanted to add two more quotes. Madame Blavatsky said that Theosophy is not a religion, but it is all religions rolled into one. She also said that Theosophists belong to no one religion, but belong to all religions. I strongly echo those sentiments.

 

[Bruce Michael]

The trouble with that, as I see it Nick, are the anomalies between religions. Do you eat pork or not? Are you required to be a vegetarian? In the end you will have to make a decision about where you belong... right now. HPB herself was inclined towards Tibetan Buddhism in her final days. At one time she was inclined towards Hinduism- she was embraced by the Arya Samaj.

There is no such thing as a Buddhist, Muslim or Parsi Theosophy. Conversely there are Christian, Jewish, Rosicrucian etc. theosophists. This leads to harmony.

 

[Avi]

Hi Bruce, you have been a member here longer than I, so it is not necessary to welcome you, but better to introduce myself, hello !!

I was wondering if you would consider reviewing a couple of earlier threads, and giving us your opinion. Nick and I had some disagreement on these threads, and I would like to get the perspective of another Theosophist:

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/jews-as-chosen-people-a-11825.html#post208204

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/locking-the-theosophy-thread-11857.html#post209170

Thanks.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Bruce,

I agree that if you have a Hindu Theosophist who refuses to eat meat and a Muslim Theosophist who refuses to eat pork, that there is a sense of disharmony. But the long-term goal is harmony, so at least we can look forward to the day when all of these differences disappear, as Theosophy says they will indeed disappear.

You said,

"There is no such thing as a Buddhist, Muslim or Parsi Theosophy. Conversely there are Christian, Jewish, Rosicrucian etc. theosophists."

--> The good news is, Theosophy says that all of these religions came from the same source, and Theosophy shows us the similarities between them all. I was amazed when I saw how much similarity there is. Theosophy's job is to show the similarities as well as how all these religions came the same source.

"...the end you will have to make a decision about where you belong..."

--> The beauty of Theosophy is that it does not force a person to make such a decision. Also, Theosophy teaches us that a good Buddhist, Jain, etc., are all making progress towards enlightenment, so things are not as bad as various dogmatic world religions would make us think.

 

[Bruce Michael]

Hi Bruce, you have been a member here longer than I, so it is not necessary to welcome you, but better to introduce myself, hello !!

Nice to meet you. Yes it says I am an Executive Member- I don't know what sort of executive decisions I get to make around here (just coming and going ones).

I was wondering if you would consider reviewing a couple of earlier threads, and giving us your opinion. Nick and I had some disagreement on these threads, and I would like to get the perspective of another Theosophist:

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/jews-as-chosen-people-a-11825.html#post208204

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/locking-the-theosophy-thread-11857.html#post209170

Thanks.

My answer will be short and sweet as I already have that sorted out . Along with Br. Nick I do believe our ancestors were giants- and maybe we'll be giants again in the future! I might have some old newspaper articles on the subject. Recently they found those little Hobbit men; we're just waiting on more "giant" discoveries. It's not so hard to conceive considering all the mega fauna that's been found. Some of the giants of the past were quasi physical, so there will be no physical evidence for them. You'll find giants all around the world in mythology.
Good theosophists believe in fairies and giants, that's what makes their lives funner than all the rest.

 

[Avi]

Along with Br. Nick I do believe our ancestors were giants- and maybe we'll be giants again in the future!

Oh, now there is a new twist, what possible reason would cause us to become giants again ? Now you are dreaming in three dimensions and in color.

I might have some old newspaper articles on the subject.

By all means, Bruce, please provide any documentation that you have.

Recently they found those little Hobbit men;

Are you talking about a fictional account ?

we're just waiting on more "giant" discoveries.

I think you are going to be waiting a long time !

It's not so hard to conceive considering all the mega fauna that's been found.

I do not know whether or not this is scientifically validated. But even if it is so, what does it have to do with giant humans ?

Some of the giants of the past were quasi physical, so there will be no physical evidence for them.

What evidence do you have to believe this outlandish statement ? We have huge amount of fossil evidence, why would you possible believe in the existance of a race which left no evidence ?

You'll find giants all around the world in mythology.

Now you are talking, Bruce, I think we are talking about mythology here.

Good theosophists believe in fairies and giants, that's what makes their lives funner than all the rest.

Sure, Bruce, you and Nick are welcome to have a blast ! The question is, does your vision of reality correspond at all with the real world. Your comments so far indicate that they do not.

And as I said in the parallel thread, this was not good simple fun. These ideas became the underpinning for the philosophy of the most genocidal machine in the history of mankind.

If you read the other threads, we also discussed Nietzche, but after reviewing his work in more detail, one must conclude that his notions were much more intellectually founded and could not have been as easily incorporated into the Nazi scheme as the Madame.

I have no personal beef with you Bruce. And I did not have one with Nick either. He has put me on ignore and you might wish to do so as well, if you wish to live in a little bubble. It may be difficult to face the truth, Bruce, when it is quite ugly. I am just trying to exchange some ideas with you.

 

[Bruce Michael]

Oh, now there is a new twist, what possible reason would cause us to become giants again ? Now you are dreaming in three dimensions and in color.

My dear Avi, I am in the enviable position of not having to convince anyone of anything. Who really knows what the future holds- do you?

I do not know whether or not this is scientifically validated. But even if it is so, what does it have to do with giant humans ?

Real Hobbits:
Study backs theory Hobbit was distinct species

What evidence do you have to believe this outlandish statement ? We have huge amount of fossil evidence, why would you possible believe in the existance of a race which left no evidence ?

It's within "living memory". Do you want to tell people how to think? After all they are mentioned in the Bible- that's the Jewish Bible. People who believe in giants might well be construed as being pro-Jewish.
Giants:
Giant Humans and Dinosaurs

Now you are talking, Bruce, I think we are talking about mythology here.

No smoke without fire.

And as I said in the parallel thread, this was not good simple fun. These ideas became the underpinning for the philosophy of the most genocidal machine in the history of mankind.

Oh you mean the holocaust? The Jewish belief in giants caused the holocaust?
Where is the passage in theosophical literature that says the Jews (or anyone else) should be exterminated? You can find passages about human compassion, but not that. As a matter of fact there are Jewish theosophists. I knew one who was very generous to the cause of theosophy. Read aim number one again and let it sink in .

You know, you can turn a medicine into a poison.

Anyway, if you're interested in the subject read the books by Professor Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Goodrick-Clarke

 

[Avi]

Giants:
Giant Humans and Dinosaurs

No smoke without fire.

Bruce, if you are going to provide references, please realize that readers of this forum are able to access whether these references have a hidden agenda. The particular site that you link above has a significantly different agenda than to use scientifically validated approaches to determine whether giant humans existed.

To extend your analogy, it is a smokescreen.

 

[Bruce Michael]

Bruce, if you are going to provide references, please realize that readers of this forum are able to access whether these references have a hidden agenda. The particular site that you link above has a significantly different agenda than to use scientifically validated approaches to determine whether giant humans existed.

To extend your analogy, it is a smokescreen.

I don't tell people what to think.
Neufeld, B. R. --- Dinosaur Tracks and Giant Men

 

[Avi]

I don't tell people what to think.
Neufeld, B. R. --- Dinosaur Tracks and Giant Men

Bruce, do you know how to use a tool called "Google Scholar" ?

Please do a search of "giant humans". Your little "Origin" article is the only one that pops up in the entire history of science. That indicates that the results are an artifact. Even in the article there are comments which question the existence of these giants:

Reports of the presence of man in the lower parts of the geological column have been both intriguing and dubious

The Glen Rose region of the Paluxy River does not provide good evidence for the past existence of giant men. Nor does it provide evidence for the co-existence of such man (or other large mammals) and the giant dinosaurs.

Bruce, I suggest that you carefully read the articles that you post, because, if need be, we will do so for you.

 

[chakraman]

i think i read a bit about the giants of old, pre-atlantean or summat, can't quite remember. i don't necessarily believe but then i wouldn't discount it either. i think a conclusion either way would colour further enquiry. still i don't see it as any more outlandish and fantastical than the presence of life, human beings and the earth, stars etc, which is/are all totally magically out there anyway. i have no problem of life being possibly less corporeal or cloudlike if you will. i personally don't hold much faith in scientific proof. what is one year heresy is next years fact. i read man or matter by ernst lehrs which is along the lines of steiners natural/occult science. my crumbling suede can't remember specifics but i was very impressed at how it logically explained in an understandable way, many phenomena that science could not.

 

[iBrian]

Avi, we're on the Esoteric board - would be nice to respect the place as one where people with esoteric beliefs can safely converse.

 

[Avi]

Avi, we're on the Esoteric board - would be nice to respect the place as one where people with esoteric beliefs can safely converse.

Brian, you have seen enough of my posts that I think you know I respect all beliefs..... as long as they are not racist.

I have been asking questions of Bruce about Theosophy and he has been answering them, to a limited extent.

If I have criticisms about weaknesses in the logic of his arguments and what I believe are hidden agenda, is it not appropriate to point these out to him ?

 

[wil]

If I have criticisms about weaknesses in the logic of his arguments and what I believe are hidden agenda, is it not appropriate to point these out to him ?

Namaste Avi,

It is about location. We unwalled the gardens long ago, but ask that everyone not dance on everyone elses parade. Yes asking questions isn't an issue. But say he went to the Judaism board and lambasted the science that showed the parting of the Red sea or asked BB to do a google scholar search on Moses weeping whilst writing of his own death.

Maybe this wouldn't bother you, but you see the point I'm sure.

 

[Avi]

Namaste Avi,

It is about location. We unwalled the gardens long ago, but ask that everyone not dance on everyone elses parade. Yes asking questions isn't an issue. But say he went to the Judaism board and lambasted the science that showed the parting of the Red sea or asked BB to do a google scholar search on Moses weeping whilst writing of his own death.

Maybe this wouldn't bother you, but you see the point I'm sure.

Hi Wil, actually, I thought you knew me better than that. If we were discussing the "miracles" of Judaism, you would see me at the front of the line questioning the veracity, whether in the Judaism forum or B&S.

Perhaps better to continue the discussion with Bruce in a neutral sub-forum.

 

[wil]

Namaste Avi,

I do know YOU better than that, but others are more sensitive as you are well aware. It is all about an attempt to keep our board a little more civil. And while Jew on Jew may discuss the intracies at length, the offense is when an outsider comes in and tells others what is right or wrong with their belief.

 

[bgruagach]

I'm Wiccan, and I have to say that I take Avi's point of view with regard to scientific or historical claims.

It doesn't matter to me where they are made -- if claims are presented as being either scientific or historical, then it is perfectly acceptable to expect questions and even challenges on those points from a scientific or historical stance. (And I don't care if the person asking is an "insider" or "outsider" as scientific and historical questions really don't change because of who is asking them.)

Just my point of view of course!

 

[Bruce Michael]

Bruce, do you know how to use a tool called "Google Scholar" ?

Please do a search of "giant humans". Your little "Origin" article is the only one that pops up in the entire history of science. That indicates that the results are an artifact. Even in the article there are comments which question the existence of these giants:





Bruce, I suggest that you carefully read the articles that you post, because, if need be, we will do so for you.

Avi, As I said before and will say again...... and again- It doesn't concern me what you think. The only authority is personal choice. Now if you're sincerely interested in the giant men of old, we can discuss it, but I'm not interested talking to a nay-sayer about it- it's just a waste of my time.
Besides it's been thoroughly examined before of previous threads- search Nephilim. Here is one of mine:
http://www.interfaith.org/forum/gen-6-4-there-were-7247.html

More:http://www.interfaith.org/forum/the-nephilim-race-2728.html
http://www.interfaith.org/forum/who-were-the-men-of-2043.html

Blessings,
Br.Bruce

 

[Avi]

Bruce, I think Brian and Wil are right, this is not the place for me to continue my "criticisms" of Theosophy. I apologize if I have been insensitive to your and Nick's beliefs.

There are now at least several threads on Theosophy, so I imagine discussions will continue and if I see an opportunity for my input I will create a branch to the B&S sub-forum.

Best wishes.