The Infallibility of Doctrine

Thomas

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Recent discussions on the meaning of Christian Scripture, and its subsequent bearing on the dogmas of Christian doctrine, address, albeit indirectly, but nevertheless implicitly, the idea of the Infallibility of Doctrine with regard to the teachings of any religious (and indeed philosophical) system.

In the Catholic Tradition we have the statements issued ex cathedra — 'from the Chair of St Peter' which are considered subsequent to, but founded on and dependent on Scripture, and thus share in their infallibility.
(A brief note: Contrary to the common opinion, the pope, nor is any man, infallible as such. It is the office, guaranteed by Christ Himself in Scripture, which is infallible, by virtue of the immanent presence of Christ in the Church.)

I wonder ... do other Traditions hold the same or similar ideas with regard to the fallibility or otherwise of their sacra doctrina?

Thomas
 
Traditions as in Christian traditions or are you including other religions in your question too?
 
Since this thread is on comparative, I feel it might be helpful to post the following excerpt from ch. 14 of Grace Knoche's To Light a Thousand Lamps. This should clarify succinctly the official position of the Theosophical Society on the idea of infallibility of the Masters ... as well as how Theosophists are asked to regard spiritual teachings (including those of the Masters).
In 1886 HPB issued a powerful statement in which she clarifies what the original program of The Theosophical Society was and remains today. Therein she says that the founders "had to oppose in the strongest manner possible anything approaching dogmatic faith and fanaticism -- belief in the infallibility of the Masters, or even in the very existence of our invisible Teachers, having to be checked from the first." (The Original Programme of The Theosophical Society, p. 6; reprint, H. P. Blavatsky, Collected Writings 7:148) She and Olcott weren't told what to do, but they were distinctly told what not to do; in particular, they should never permit The Theosophical Society to become a sect: dogmatic in thought and dogmatic in deed. The strength of theosophy is that there is no teaching that anyone has to believe before he can participate actively as a member or supporter of The Theosophical Society. The one requirement is that he accept the principle of universal brotherhood as of great validity and a power in his thinking and acting. He may remain a Buddhist, a Christian, a Zoroastrian, an atheist, or whatever: "The greatest spirit of free research untrammeled by anyone or anything, had to be encouraged." (Ibid.)
Two additional quotations will show, again quite clearly I think, the position on dogmas and infallibility which is held by the vast majority of occult students after the tradition of Alice Bailey. Both statements are the commentary of the Tibetan Master himself, author of nineteen volumes of esoteric philosophy via Alice Bailey. The first statement is regarding the Tibetan's work with Alice, and the second is a general statement found at the beginning of each and every one of the nineteen volumes. Apologies for the length, but I believe it is worth hearing things `from the horse's mouth,' sometimes. :)
Initiation, Human and Solar was intended to bring the fact of the Hierarchy to public attention. This had been done by H. P. B. by inference and statement but not in any sequential form. The Theosophical Society had taught the fact of the Masters, though H. P. Blavatsky (in a communication to the Esoteric Section) stated that she bitterly regretted so doing. This teaching was misinterpreted by later theosophical leaders and they made certain basic mistakes. The Masters whom they portrayed were characterized by an impossible infallibility, because the Masters are themselves evolving; the teaching given endorsed an engrossing interest in self-development and an intense focusing upon personal unfoldment and liberation; the people who were indicated as initiates and senior disciples were entirely mediocre with no influence outside the Theosophical Society itself; complete devotion to the Masters was also emphasized - devotion to their personalities. These Masters were also shown as interfering with the organization life of the various occult groups which claimed to be working under their direction. They were made responsible for the mistakes of the leaders of the groups who took refuge under such statements as: The Master has instructed me to say, etc., the Master wants the following work to be done, or the Master wants the membership to do thus and so. Those who obeyed were regarded as good members; those who refused to be interested and obedient were looked upon as renegades. The freedom of the individual was constantly infringed and the weaknesses and ambitions of the leaders were provided with an alibi. Knowing all this well, A. A. B. refused to be a party to any such constantly recurring activity, for such is the history of practically all the known occult groups which attract the attention of the public. Even had I wanted to work in such a way (which no one affiliated with the Hierarchy ever does), I would have found no collaboration from her.

Statement by Djwhal Khul

Extract from a Statement by the Tibetan
(Djwhal Khul) in August 1934


Suffice it to say, that I am a Tibetan disciple of a certain degree, and this tells you but little, for all are disciples from the humblest aspirant up to, and beyond, the Christ Himself. I live in a physical body like other men, on the borders of Tibet, and at times (from the exoteric standpoint) preside over a large group of Tibetan lamas, when my other duties permit. It is this fact that has caused it to be reported that I am an abbot of this particular lamasery. Those associated with me in the work of the Hierarchy (and all true disciples are associated in this work) know me by still another name and office. Alice Bailey knows who I am and recognizes me by two of my names.

I am a brother of yours, who has traveled a little longer upon the Path than has the average student, and has therefore incurred greater responsibilities. I am one who has wrestled and fought his way into a greater measure of light than has the aspirant who will read this article, and I must therefore act as a transmitter of the light, no matter what the cost. I am not an old man, as age counts among the teachers, yet I am not young or inexperienced. My work is to teach and spread the knowledge of the Ageless Wisdom wherever I can find a response, and I have been doing this for many years. I seek also to help the Master M. and the Master K.H. whenever opportunity offers, for I have been long connected with Them and with Their work. In all of the above, I have told you much; yet at the same time I have told you nothing which would lead you to offer me that blind obedience and the foolish devotion which the emotional aspirant offers to the Guru and Master Whom he is yet unable to contact. Nor will he make that desired contact until he has transmuted emotional devotion into unselfish service to humanity--not to the Master.

The books I have written are sent out with no claim for their acceptance. They may, or may not, be correct, true and useful. It is for you to ascertain their truth by right practice and by the exercise of the intuition. Neither I nor A.A.B. is the least interested in having them acclaimed as inspired writings, or in having anyone speak of them (with bated breath) as being the work of one of the Masters. If they present truth in such a way that it follows sequentially upon that already offered in the world teachings, if the information given raises the aspiration and the will-to-serve from the plane of the emotions to that of the mind (the plane whereon the Masters can be found), then they will have served their purpose. If the teaching conveyed calls forth a response from the illumined mind of the worker in the world, and brings a flashing forth of his intuition, then let that teaching be accepted. But not otherwise. If the statements meet with eventual corroboration, or are deemed true under the test of the Law of Correspondences, then that is well and good. But should this not be so, let not the student accept what is said.
 
Hi Sean —

Traditions as in Christian traditions or are you including other religions in your question too?

I am enquiring about other traditions. I'm pretty sure the Abrahamic all claim an order of infallibility of Scripture, although I cannot say so for sure.

Catholicism does,

Theosophy apparently does not,

Do the Baha'i treat of this at all?

Thomas
 
AndrewX, one of the things which many people might think "fallible" in Alice Bailey's books is the claim that she ever spoke to anyone from Tibet at all.
 
AndrewX, one of the things which many people might think "fallible" in Alice Bailey's books is the claim that she ever spoke to anyone from Tibet at all.
Sure, bob x. Alice Bailey has been criticized, even by the modern Theosophists whose line of teachings she continued (!), as Nick at C-R can confirm. This shows up in one of the statements I posted, and Alice speaks at length in her Unfinished Autobiography regarding the scandal which occurred as soon as she DARED to mention `the Masters' to a fellow TS member.

The problem was, later generations of TS members did not want to accept what HPB had indicated about the Great Ones, even though `the Masters' were supposedly the Founders of the TS, in terms of Occult inspiration -while we are told CLEARLY that the karma, and also the success or the failure of the exoteric effort, goes forth on the shoulders of the Masters' human emissaries (HPB, W.Q. Judge and H.S. Olcott).

Still, HPB made a statement which pointed toward the coming of a successor, if you will, a future disciple who would continue the work, during the 20th Century. A small number of students, at first, recognized the continuation of HPB's teachings in Alice Bailey's writings, and a good many of them understood early on that they were receiving the Instructions of an esoteric Teacher. Not all knew that it was Master DK, and in fact, there was no original intention of making it outwardly known - or even widespread among AAB's group of students - that her source for dictations was Master DK.

An error occurred, however, made by Alice herself, as she was overworked and tired one night, and forgot to remove identifying statements from a particular lesson. Her students, who certainly knew - and were already capable of intuiting that their Teacher was an Initiate - thus learned his identity as the Tibetan Master, the same Djwhal Khul whom HPB had met twice in Tibet ... once when this Arhat-Initiate was studying with his own teacher, Master KH, and a second time, closer to Master DK's own 5th Initiation (Adeptship) in 1875.

Master DK issued a statement regarding his identity after this discovery, making it clear that it was of no consequence, and that it should change nothing. Students must still exercise their own Intuition when studying spiritual and philosophical teachings - esoteric or otherwise (but especially the former).

Carl Jung thought Alice Bailey's teachings were worthy of attention, yet he assumed that she was simply speaking with `her Higher Self.' Alice response to this, from The Unfinished Autobiography, is as follows:
This work of the Tibetan has greatly intrigued people and psychologists everywhere. They dispute as to what is the cause of the phenomenon, and argue that what I write probably comes from my subconscious. I have been told that Jung takes the position that the Tibetan is my personified higher self and Alice A. Bailey is the lower self. Some of these days (if I ever have the pleasure of meeting him) I will ask him how my personified higher self can send me parcels all the way from India, for that is what He has done. :)
No, bob x, these teachings are not for everyone. There are most likely a number of folks here at C-R who don't even believe that telepathy is possible ... spontaneously, let alone intentionally. But this is precisely how, under the Science of Impression, the Tibetan Master worked with Alice Bailey. She herself, was NOT a psychic, and this is made clear in her autobiography.

Nor did AAB every physically MEET the Tibetan. Her initial contact, in 1919, took the following form:
It was in November 1919 that I made my first contact with The Tibetan. I had sent the children off to school and thought I would snatch a few minutes to myself and went out on to the hill close to the house. I sat down and began thinking and then suddenly I sat startled and attentive. I heard what I thought was a clear note of music which sounded from the sky, through the hill and in me. Then I heard a voice which said, "There are some books which it is desired should be written for the public. You can write them. Will you do so?" Without a moment's notice I said, "Certainly not. I'm not a darned psychic and I don't want to be drawn into anything like that." I was startled to hear myself speaking out loud. The voice went on to say that wise people did not make snap judgments, that I had a peculiar gift for the higher telepathy and that what I was being asked to do embodied no aspect of the lower psychism. I replied that I didn't care, that I wasn't interested in any work of a psychic nature at all. The unseen person who was speaking so clearly and directly to me then said that he would give me time for consideration; that he would not take my answer then and that he would come back in three weeks' time exactly, to find out what I intended to do. (Ibid)
Alice goes on to tell how she shrugged this interview off, and pretty much ignored it, not even telling her husband. But Master DK returned as he said he would, and contacted her at the end of three weeks. Gee, those Masters actually can tell time without our modern mechanical contraptions. :rolleyes:

Alice refused the request a second time, but was begged to try for a couple of weeks and see how it might work out ... and out of curiosity, she agreed. Thus came the first few chapters of Initiation Human and Solar, which I think some students might agree is almost written in a simpler style than the later works which she wrote with the Tibetan.

As a new student to AAB's teachings in 1991, I certainly could NOT tell whose thoughts and ideas I was reading, and although I was aware that they were supposed to be the writings of a Master, similar to the Mahatma Letters - and other Theosophical dictations - it took me awhile to get familiar enough with the Tibetan's style of presentation, via AAB, to finally start to contact his ideas directly. Having done this, however, it became clear that reading the books authored by Alice Bailey herself, five of the 24 published `blue books,' was a very different experience than reading the nineteen volumes authored by the Tibetan. I know several dozen students, and have probably met a couple hundred, who would likely nod their heads and back me up on that.

As a note, Alice's meeting with her own Master occurred when she was 15 years old. This one did occur in the flesh. She describes it briefly as follows:
It was a Sunday morning. The previous Sunday I had heard a sermon which had aroused all my aspiration. This Sunday, for some reason, I had not gone to Church. All the rest of the house-party had gone and there was no one in the house but myself and the servants. I was sitting in the drawing room reading. The door opened and in walked a tall man dressed in European clothes (very well cut, I remember) but with a turban on his head. He came in and sat down beside me. I was so petrified at the sight of the turban that I could not make a sound or ask what he was doing there. Then he started to talk. He told me there was some work that it was planned that I could do in the world but that it would entail my changing my disposition very considerably; I would have to give up being such an unpleasant little girl and must try and get some measure of self-control. My future usefulness to Him and to the world was dependent upon how I handled myself and the changes I could manage to make. He said that if I could achieve real self-control I could then be trusted and that I would travel all over the world and visit many countries, "doing your Master's work all the time." Those words have rung in my ears ever since. He emphasized that it all depended upon me and what I could do and should do immediately. He added that He would be in touch with me at intervals of several years apart. (Ibid)
And she says afterwards:
As the years went by I found that at seven years intervals (until I was thirty-five) I had indications of the supervision and interest of this individual. Then in 1915 I discovered who He was and that other people knew Him. From then on the relationship has become closer and closer until today I can, at will, contact Him. This willingness to be contacted on the part of a Master is only possible when a disciple is also willing never to avail himself of the opportunity except in moments of real emergency in world service.

I found that this visitor was the Master K.H., the Master Kut Humi, a Master Who is very close to the Christ, Who is on the teaching line and Who is an outstanding exponent of the love-wisdom of which the Christ is the full expression. The real value of this experience is not to be found in the fact that I, a young girl called Alice La Trobe-Bateman, had an interview with a Master but in the fact that knowing nothing whatsoever of Their existence, I met one of Them and that He talked with me. The value is to be found also in the fact that everything that He told me came true (after I had tried hard to meet requirements) and because I discovered that He was not the Master Jesus, as I had naturally supposed, but a Master of Whom I could not possibly have heard and one Who was totally unknown to me. Anyway, the Master K.H. is my Master, beloved and real. I have worked for Him ever since I was fifteen years old and I am now One of the senior disciples in His group, or - as it is called esoterically - in His Ashram.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]I make these statements with a definite purpose in mind. So much nonsense has been talked along these lines and so many claims made by those who have not the experience and the mental and spiritual orientation required, that true disciples are ashamed to mention their work and position. I want to make it easier for such disciples in the future, and to "debunk" the nonsense put out by many esoteric (so-called) schools of thought. The claim of discipleship is ever permissible; it gives nothing away and only carries weight if backed by a life of service. The claim that one is an initiate of a certain status is never permissible, except among those of the same rating and then it is not necessary. The world is full of disciples. Let them acknowledge it. Let them stand together in the bonds of discipleship and make it easier for others to do the same. Thus will the existence of the Masters be proved and proved in the right way - through the lives and testimonies of those They train.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]I don't want to divert this thread into a focus onto the question of `who are the Masters?' ... as we've already had several good threads started about this by Bruce Michael, recently. We could continue discussion there, if need be. I did want to make it clear that Alice was, in many ways, an ordinary person like ourselves ... who was ready for, and CALLED for, a life of Service.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]As I believe Christians are well aware, there is a phrase, `Many are called, few are chosen.' That would be better understood, nowadays, if it simply said, `Of the many who are called, FEW seem willing to answer.' For the answer must come, not with words, certainly not with empty affirmations, but with the pledge of Service to one's fellow man ... and with FOLLOW-THROUGH.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]I recommend that the sincere student buy or borrow a copy of Alice Bailey's Unfinished Autobiography, if you wish to study the life of discipleship ... as described by someone living in the early 20th Century. Other, more recent accounts have been written, but Alice's testimony bears witness to the hardships, the tests and the trials ... and it is no glamour story. It is just the opposite. It is, for I will certainly bear witness, the Real McCoy ... and nothing less. But that, of course, is up to each of us - to discern, and then to apply, in our own lives. And that goes back full circle to the last few lines of the Extract of a Statement by the Tibetan.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Bob x, I know that Master DK is not only `real,' but that he is exactly who his students understand him to be (an Adept Initiate of High Degree) ... because I, too, met him when I was only three years old. Whatever else children may be capable of imagining, let me assure you, they do not fabricate experiences of the type, and of the quality, which called me to the Path ... at that early, relatively impressionable age. Nor, I'm afraid, do people even understand the true significance of this term `impressionable,' and realize that it has a positive, desirable connotation, in addition to the usual implication of gullibility and naïveté.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]That is all I will say for now, though we can certainly have further discussion wherever at C-R would be most appropriate.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Peace,[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]~Andrew[/FONT]

P.S. - An additional article that might be worth checking out, written by David Reigle, entitled `The Centennial Cycle' and published in Theosophical History of Oct. 2005, can be found here, in PDF format. This should be of great interest to Theosophists and esoteric students alike.
 
I've always got to check out definitions.
in·fal·li·ble
Etymology:Middle English, from Medieval Latin infallibilis, from Latin in- + Late Latin fallibilis fallibleDate:15th century 1 : incapable of error : unerring <an infallible memory>
2 : not liable to mislead, deceive, or disappoint : certain <an infallible remedy>
3 : incapable of error in defining doctrines touching faith or morals
And I am I correct in noting we are talking about doctrine, not scripture?

Are you indicating Doctrine never changes? Or that the fact that doctrine changes makes it infallible?
 
Actually, for the sake of comparison of Theosophist views that might differ from the picture often painted, there's some interesting research by a Theosophist here:
The Blavatsky/Tibet and Stanzas of Dzyan Connection.
Well worth reading by those interested in identifying the 'goofy ideas' that might well inform some aspects of Theosophy...

"... The pudgalavadins, condemned as heretical in India despite being over 80,000 strong even after persecution from the other Buddhist sects, become a form of pudgalavadin yogacarya Buddhism in Central Asia where they survive. This Buddhism becomes the Central Asian Dzog chen attested by the original texts found at Tun huang (now acknowledged to profoundly modify Nyingmapas sense of their own history by Dzog chen master Namkhai Norbu and others) ... It is this source, BTW, that Guenon affirmed was the source of HPB's theosophy mixed and corrupted by 19th century occultism and freemasonry... "

"... So, if one wishes to not say HPB made it all up, or that she did a botched job of interpreting Hinduism or Buddhism teaching on planes and bodies, but instead, wishes to search for historically verifiable sources (and one isn't a true believer in white brotherhood, but agrees with K.P. Johnson's evidence from HPB herself that she masked her teachers identities by making them bigger than life) then the fact that it is only the Central Asian and Sikh traditions that combine the Hindu-Buddhist scheme with a shamanic-Sufi astral plane and body should indicate to any rational investigator that her sources might come from these traditions...

... The idea of a "great white brotherhood" does not seem to exist outside TS circles nor before HPB. The other thing I would add is that HPB's own way of conceptualizing things seems to have a heavy dose of freemasonry combined with the perspectives and expectations of a Russian aristocrat ... Godwin's book brings out an aspect of Theosophy that reveals the Euro-centric biases of its founders ... There were (are) two major politico-religious tensions in the region that HPB might have ironically been both sensitive too and misperceived because of her own background ...

... Anyway, the religious "enlightenment" more or less tied to Freemasonry was a formative influence on HPB that might ave given her a somewhat misguided perspective on things political, religious, and oriental...

... So, HPB, despite her sympathies with Asian religions, peoples, and brotherhoods, might have partly misunderstood the political dynamics and objectives of even her sources and supporters. I mention this for two reasons. I think both the invention, and eventual disappearance of "support" from a "higher source" of the TS reflects HPB's reading and misreading of the nature of Asian brotherhoods. Second, her freemason spectacles may not only reinforce the picture of the masters and great white brotherhood of the "true believer" in the TS, but also, may mislead the historical investigator. If it is assumed that the sources of HPB is being sought fits the freemason template, the thing to be found might be overlooked. If such a mindset was how HPB saw things herself, it might be one of the factors in what seem to be her political misreading of the prospects of the TS. The freemasons might have been a very effective "political" network in Europe and Imperial Russia but Asian brotherhoods were not and likely disinclined to such a project...

... But from a non-Euro-centric perspective, the TS looks too much like western Enlightenment a la Freemasonry style. HPB's astral realm, as noted by scholars and Buddhist as well as Hindu scholar-practitioners, is not found in Buddhist nor Hindu theory of planes (bhumi) nor bodies (sarira) nor sheaths (kosa). She added that. The astral plane of Theosophy comes from Muslim sources, in fact, Sufi Sheikhi illuminationist sources where it is called Hurqalya (Latin, medio mundi of Hermeticists) and the astral body (Latin, caro astralis of Hermeticists, okhema symphyes of the theurgic Neo-platonists) is hurqalyi jism. This addition is rejected by Buddhists and Hindus. There is the physical body (stula sarira) with its two sheaths (the chemical crust or food sheath - annamayakosa and vital sheath - pranamayakosa). Next, where HPB's astral body should be (which both Buddhism and Hinduism reject) there is nothing. Instead, the next higher body is the subtle body (suksma sarira) with its two sheaths (the lower mental or manomayakosa and higher mental-intellectual or buddhimayakosa or vijnanamayakosa). Finally, there is the causal body (sarira karana), which in the unenlightened state, has the blissful ignorance sheath (ajnanamayakosa or anandamayakosa that is also the alaya vijnana as the depth dynamics of ignorance) but is to be replaced, in enlightenment, with the trikaya. The only traditions that use this scheme of planes (bhumis) and corresponding bodies (sariras) AND WHICH HAVE an added astral plane and astral body between the physical body and its two sheaths and the subtle body with its lower and higher mental sheaths BESIDES THEOSOPHY is Central Asian Bon Dzog chen (the Kalmucks and Mongols, with whom HPB had early contact, add astral component based on their residual shamanic traditions and practices that are incorporated within their brand of not quite orthodox Buddhism) and some aspects of the Sikh religion (that incorporated Hindu, Buddhist, and Sufi material). So, if one wishes to not say HPB made it all up, or that she did a botched job of interpreting Hinduism or Buddhism teaching on planes and bodies, but instead, wishes to search for historically verifiable sources (and one isn't a true believer in white brotherhood, but agrees with K.P. Johnson's evidence from HPB herself that she masked her teachers identities by making them bigger than life) then the fact that it is only the Central Asian and Sikh traditions that combine the Hindu-Buddhist scheme with a shamanic-Sufi astral plane and body should indicate to any rational investigator that her sources might come from these traditions...

... Another source of HPB is her self-education that both gave her valuable clues and, I suspect, somewhat jaundiced views because she got them out of a private Russian library early. From peasant stock, Gurdjieff, by contrast, may seem much more egnimatic but his language and mention of groups is readily identifiable by those from the region. So, the sevenfold source of both HPB and his cosmology is clearer in his case...

... So of both HPB and G sources are the folk traditions of the region. And G shares a more realistic view of brotherhoods as confederations of cooperating orders, some very old and prestigious, but not the luridly Peter Pan-like fantasy of ascended masters as a new polytheism.
Theosophists want bedtime stories. And ascended, they all masterfully were above it all blissfully ever after."

Thomas
 
yes, Thomas, buddhists also have a "chair of St Peter" type moment, 'cept "we" call it the "four seals", and these four seals revolve around the fundamentals of buddhist teachings- it is said if an organisation/its leaders/its teachings do not uphold these four seals, then strictly speaking, it is not giving you buddhism, but something else...

the four seals are... all products are impermanent, all things contaminated with the afflications are miserable, all phenomena are selfless, nirvana is peace... if that isn't what ur taught, ur not being taught buddhism...

beyond that, it is accepted that there are differences between the different lineages perspectives on "higher wisdom" type matters, ie, the division of the two truths, whether there is some remainder after products decay, etc...

as well as this, we can divide sutra into"definative" and "non definative"- ie, does it deal with the division of the two truths or the nature of emptiness, or does it not? If it does, its a definative text...

if it's a non definative text, it might be interesting, but it does not really teach u anything...

I apologise in advance if I have spelt definative wrong...!

as for what u have written, Thomas, re: theosophy- I don't even think it's that complex... for me, its more of a case of... HPB ripped off Max Heindels' work... re: rosicrucianism, re: astral, the planes, mixing indian and christianity, etc...

but well, maybe that's just me!

adios
 
Thomas, wil, et al,

HPB's Protector, Whom we later learn is the Master Morya, her own - direct, Occult Teacher ... saved her from a horse-riding accident even while Helena was a child, or youth.

Later, she met him, in the flesh in Hyde Park, London ... although her first observation of him there, in group with with other notable diplomats, was nothing more than that - He signalled to her not to approach. He was, after all, a RAJPUT PRINCE ... and a moment's thought will show why a later appointment had to be set up.

HPB visited Tibet not once but TWICE. And during that time, she not only studied and learned at the feet of her (own) Master, but she LIVED with a second Mahatma, the Master KH. She also met and learned from the Arhat-Initiate pupil DK, referred to as the Disinherited in The Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnett.

HPB also met, in the flesh, the Master R. or Rakoczy, as well as Master Narayan, a Hindu (Indian) Master ... Whom she called, `The Old Gentleman.' I think this may be the Rishi of the Nilgiri Hills, possibly also Lord Agastya of Hindu fable and legend.

It is not clear to me whether she actually met Masters Serapis Bey and Tuitit Bey, two Egyptian Masters, but she certainly corresponded with them, and learned from them.

She met, in the flesh, on at least one notable occasion, with H.S.O. as her witness ... the Master Hilarion, Whom HSO described as `a swarthy Cypriote.' And we know that she learned much from this Master, as well.

HPB was even turned away from Tibet, by her own Master, M., when the Chohan (Maha-Chohan) would not allow it ... presumably for reasons that we COULD understand, if we actually bothered to take any of this seriously. :eek:

While in Tibet, a letter was also sent by the Master KH to HPB's family, received NOT by HPB's hand but by that of her aunt, as I recall ... clarifying that they should not worry, as HPB was under the protective hand of Lord Sang-gyas. This, my friends, means Shakyamuni Buddha. :)

Now. I find it rather humorous, from my good-natured side, Master Thomas, that you are babbling on about HPB's possible, presumed, suspected and likely sources for her confabulated teachings ... though as a reminder, you are speaking about my Sacra Doctrina, and I would kindly appreciate it if you would come down from your high horse, and show a little respect.

I don't need, you see, to boast about `how my tradition makes thus and such INFALLIBLE' ... because what I know, I know, and what I don't, I can admit - I am learning ... and this, through day to day living, through questioning, and through the applying of what I've learned, to the best of my ability, to real-life situations. Ever heard of doing something like that with the teachings you've supposedly received from your Master(s)? :eek:

Why is it so darn funny to me at the moment, that you babble on like this, making a great fool of yourself to those of us who KNOW otherwise? Precisely for that simple reason, as that's reason enough. :)

I first met a Master when I was three years old. I met another when I was nineteen. And I've met two Teachers since then, one of whom has a group not far from here, and who proves, simply by walking around, eating his breakfast, and smiling kindly at everyone whom he meets ... that everything in your post, Thomas, may safely be dismissed with a wave of the hand -- by the Faithful.

I'm so sorry that it doesn't fit your preconceptions, and that you wish it were `that easy' to finally dimiss all this hoopla which gets your bowels in such an uproar. But friend, that's your problem, not mine. I'm not the one fighting tooth, claw and nail to tear down ... telling the man across from me that his doctrines are all fabricated and unsound, that his Prophets are frauds and crackpots, and that nothing he studies has any real significance, because it's someone's `goofy idea.'

It is because of men like you, and what you say and DO, that men like Siddharta Gautama needed to teach Compassion ... and Christ Jesus needed to teach Forgiveness. For Thomas, when you attack our greatest Messenger as you repeatedly, ceaselessly do, do you know that you are simultaneously reminding us how important it is, to see with eyes of compassion, and with a loving heart ...

Why, my friend, do you feel that it is yours to sit and teach us this lesson, when you yourself have none of the credentials of the Messengers that have been chosen ... nor even the slightest appreciation of their Message?
 
The other thing I would add is that HPB's own way of conceptualizing things seems to have a heavy dose of freemasonry
Here, again, why is this surprising? HPB herself, we are told, was Cagliostro immediately prior to coming back into the body as HPB. She learned, then from Master Rakoczy, and this same Master taught her both in person and from a distance during her years of service to humanity as HPB. I think it's mildly humorous that Mr. Ananikian comes to this realization of the Masonic influence ... without apparently having the least idea its true origins. :p

The idea of a "great white brotherhood" does not seem to exist outside TS circles nor before HPB
Amazing, isn't it, that even one with two eyes and two ears cannot seem to recognize the color ORANGE unless it is in the form the fruit of the same name, sitting before him, or YELLOW unless someone has handed him a banana. :rolleyes:

The Bible tells the observant student plenty about the Brotherhood(s) ... and we can also learn this from every other Sacred Scripture this world has ever seen. The amazing part to me, is that modern man (and woman) in his continued, non-ending anthropomorphizations, has yet to get around to considering the radical idea, that God actually thought of BROTHERHOOD before WE did.

Dear God, WHAT the heck exactly does this genius Mr. Ananikian think Christ JESUS went around PREACHING, and demonstrating ... as the BUDDHA(s) before Him? :rolleyes:

Again, we have the horse, dying of thirst, as it stands next to the Pierian Spring Itself. :eek:

HPB's astral realm, as noted by scholars and Buddhist as well as Hindu scholar-practitioners, is not found in Buddhist nor Hindu theory of planes (bhumi) nor bodies (sarira) nor sheaths (kosa).
Statements like this, I'm afraid, just reveal the depths of the author's ignorance ... and/or his inability to actually read a given text ... or, if we are most understanding, we could just say that he has missed the teaching, entirely.

Not only does HPB demonstrate that the astral body, and plane, is a common teaching of EVERY exoteric, as well as esoteric, tradition ... but she does this in a fashion which even a child of five or six should be able to understand. I mean, if all else failed, one could simply say, "You know, that place where you go when you dream, and where you can fly, and so forth." We have even had threads at C-R about children's experience of the astral world ... and more.

Pretty shoddy research, Mr. Ananikian.

luridly Peter Pan-like fantasy of ascended masters as a new polytheism
For this misconception, and master-worship, in the extreme, and for the distortions which have certainly arisen and come into the forefront of popular consciousness ... we must, unfortunately, credit some of the Theosophical authors and less-well-educated or experienced thinkers. HPB, however, did her utmost to prevent just this kind of travesty from occurring.

I shall say, again, that HPB stated clearly that she bitterly resented even making the existence of the Masters known, to the public ... partly because of how much CRAP she took from people about it (like about THREE here at C-R who immediately come to mind, and a little parade of others who occasionlly chime in to jab and jeer, without anything original or helpful to say). The real reason that HPB resented speaking of the Masters, is because of what she had experienced, seen, been taught and shown firsthand, and how horribly, tragically she had seen all this misrepresented ... to the point of heartbreak, as she was forced to accept that not one in a thousand would even really catch a clue.

Later, Alice Bailey, too, would have to deal with all of this, even catching hell from the (later generations of) Theosophists, themselves, who had no contact with the Masters, save in rare cases ... and thus who could only laugh and scoff when Alice innocently stated that she'd met `the Master in the portrait, as a child.' But in her works, Alice goes on to tell, or rather Master DK states, that the Masters as portrayed by the `I AM' Movement ... are a travesty of the truth, and that although this has helped to make the existence of the Hierarchy better known, it is wholly inaccurate, glamourized misinformation.

The term `Ascended Master' NEVER appears in Theosophical writings, NOR in the teachings of Alice Bailey. It would be well to make this notation, in the private little Crusade that some here at C-R are waging ... since what this amounts to, philosophically, is something like a smokescreen - and dodges the true, Theosphical teachings regarding the Masters altogether.

Notice, by the way, our differences of approach.

On the one hand, esoteric students often question - both the origin, as well as the interpretation, of the world's Sacred Scriptures ... but unlike children on a playground, we do not feel the need to wrestle over our toys, refuse to share, greedily claim ownership - much less to become dogmatic and take offense because some `outsider,' the new kid on the block, has dared to come play amongst us, bringing a different background and type of understanding along with him.

What will not happen, is that a true esoteric student will never say, "Your tradition is pointless, your teachings are worthless, your Prophets and Saviours are all a sham ... and only an idiot would take any of this crap seriously." Every day, certainly here at C-R, someone says this about esoteric teachings ... and usually it's the same individuals, who don't seem content to keep these opinions to themselves. Strange, this obsession they seem to have with tearing down, rather than making the least effort to build up.

Yet esotericists have endured this since the times of Atlantis, for when the Wisdom and the knowledge which frees men's spirits began to provide an obstacle to the satisfaction of the desires and selfish purposes of the brothers of darkness ... and to stand in the way of the triumph of materialism, fear, superstition, greed and earthly power ... the schism which continues to this day, began to develop.

It is not simply in the last 125 years that esotericists have been forced to suffer the ridicule of materialistic scientists and faithless skeptics, as well as the machinations of the ecclesiasts and stratagems of a jealous priesthood. Nor even for just 1000 years has this oppression been acceptable and even sanctioned by the highest authorities in all lands.

Hypatia of Alexandria, murdered by a Christian mod in 415AD, stands as a monument in the history books ... and in the hearts and minds of Pagans and esotericists everywhere ... to a more enlightened day, in many ways, when the esoteric Wisdom had not yet been driven so far underground - for as one author says, "Dark with ignorance of spiritual truth were the many centuries that followed [her brutal murder]." (Dempster)

I think it is worth noting, especially for the attention of some of us, that the Catholic Encyclopedia provides a beautiful and wholly accurate statement regarding the nature and purpose of both modern and ancient Theosophy, telling us that:
"The basic teaching of Theosophy is the Universal Brotherhood of Humanity. Hence springs the preaching of toleration to all persons and to all varieties of belief, e.g.. Buddhists, Christians and Atheists. It considers the different religions as methods adopted by man in the search for God. They are of necessity various, because men differ in temperment, type, needs and stages of evolution. Hence they are different and imperfect expressions of truth and as such it says: 'We cannot afford to lose any of the worlds religions, for each has its partial truth and its characteristic message which the perfect man must acquire.' Hence Theosophy appeals to men as the great peace maker, for it teaches that all religions mean one and the same thing, or rather that they are all branches of a single tree ... religion comes from Divine knowledge, i.e., Theosophy."

And as Mr. Dempster aptly points out, "we do not agree with them [Catholics] when they try to show, that H.P. Blavatsky was a fraud, which neither they nor anyone else has ever proved." :eek:
 
The majority of normative Judaism does not hold scripture to be infallible if I'm understanding your question correctly. The only exception is the Orthodox who have chosen to reject the insights of the modern age to greater and lesser extents as they apply to certain particularist issues.
 
Hi Andrew —

HPB's Protector, Whom we later learn is the Master Morya, her own - direct, Occult Teacher ... saved her from a horse-riding accident even while Helena was a child, or youth.

I'm afraid I regard this stuff as the mythology/goofiness that accrues in these situations — it's a common phenomena and none are proof against it. In my own Hermetic/Theosophic Order we had similar tales, and I believe I am allowed to say that HPB was somewhat 'creative' with regard to her personal history ... as I understand it, even her most loyal biographers have had a heck of a task sorting out what's what ...

Now. I find it rather humorous, from my good-natured side, Master Thomas, that you are babbling on about HPB's possible, presumed, suspected and likely sources for her confabulated teachings ...
Hey, don't shoot the messenger ... none of this is my opinion, but that of a Theosophist scholar, who seems to present pretty firm and reliable evidence to suggest a possible source or sources of the elements of your doctrine ...

It's refreshing to read an internal source who can bring a degree of objectivity and scholarship to bear on the matter.

Thomas
 
Andrew — can I just check something...

Are you claiming that Theosophy alone is in possession of esoteric teaching? Or indeed that there is only one esoterism?

You seem to use the term esoteric as a synonym for your own philosophical position.

Thoms
 
Hi Wil —

Sorry, if this was adressed to me, I missed this earlier —

I've always got to check out definitions. And I am I correct in noting we are talking about doctrine, not scripture?
Well, in Catholic terms, the doctrine of infallibility covers both.

Scripture "must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation." Dei Verbum — so Scripture is infallible insofar as it makes known Divine

And doctrine is Infallible when it is declared "ex cathedra" (from the Chair of St Peter), or prior to this when declared in Ecumenical Council (ie the fathers of the Church are unanimous). This was quite precisely defined at Vatican I, following previous councils.

So although declared in 1870, it had in fact been the case since the first century, as indeed had Rome beein recognised as ;fu=irst amongst equals' in the Patriarchates of the East.

Are you indicating Doctrine never changes? Or that the fact that doctrine changes makes it infallible?
As I understand it, statements ex cathedra or in council are binding and unchanging, but subsequent statements can further explain, define,etc., but not contradict.

It might be worth noting that, whilst there is no doubt that in times passed villains have occupied the See of Rome, that the Church as a whole is not without her intellectuals and her philosophers, nor her lawyers, and since they take doctrine seriously, they tend not to be too cavalier with dogmatic definitions.

I'm not sure at the moment, but whilst Galileo was condemned, the precise wording of the condemnation was all important ... it is not heliocentrism that is condemned as such, but insisting that an unproven hypothesis (Galileo had not proved his theory, and had many opponents) renders Scripture false.

The Church did not want a Scripture v Science debate (they had supported Copernicus, and indeed Galileo), but Galileo was so sure of himself he forced the issue, and engineered a confrontation. He played his hand badly, and he lost.

Thomas
 
Well, in Catholic terms, the doctrine of infallibility covers both.

Scripture "must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation." Dei Verbum — so Scripture is infallible insofar as it makes known Divine
So is that a caveat, a legalistic out? ie portions of scripture that do not make known the divine or are not for the sake of salvation are classified as outside of what we are calling infallible?

I mean if we are to be open we know there are contradictions and modifications and historical errors. Hence the reasons for long drawn out explanations and theories to prove same.
 
So is that a caveat, a legalistic out? ie portions of scripture that do not make known the divine or are not for the sake of salvation are classified as outside of what we are calling infallible?
We don't break up Scripture that way. Scripture in toto is the record of the witness of the Hebraic experience, intuition, insight, illumination and revelation of the Divine, it is not just a record of Revelation, rather it is the Record of a Salvation History ... so some bits tell us what happen to Moses when he went up the mountain, and some bits tell us what happened when he went to the shops ...

In Christendom it was all regarded as the unalloyed Word of God, and then as we grew more wise we realised this can't quite be the case.

Scholars had introduced the idea of textual criticism (it was a Catholic scholar who first proposed a workable source theory to the Pentateuch), and questions began to be asked.

The Enlightenment took an extreme position — theirs was a 'new' truth that rendered all prior to it as false. There is no supernatural, no divine intervention, no revelation, so all Scripture is just a silly old myth. In fact 'history' should be consigned to the trash can. Everyone before the Enlightenment was a 'flat-earther'.

During the 18/19th century, Protestant theologians unpicked their religion until there was nothing left but unknowingness and a pious attitude. Religion was reduced to a humanism, a system of ethics (my criticism of 'liberal Christianity').

The Catholic worldview was all but overwhelmed with the speed of the Enlightenment and the dogmatism of its argument ... the depravations of the Industrial Revolution and the dehumanising effect of the new sciences effectively overturned the 'old order' and the Church, who moves on a different timescale, was traumatised ... we didn't handle the situation very well, we just withdrew into a shell, relying on a Renaissance and Medieval Scholasticism which was soon shown to be just too archaic in its thought processes to argue with 'modernity' which dogmatically insisted that nothing could be known with any certainty and faith was just blind superstition.

Slowly, the Catholic Church began to realise that the answer lay in expressing the 'old' truths in a 'new' way ... we went back to the sources of our theology and philosphy to find out if, indeed, we had got it all wrong and, if not, how we might answer the claims of the day.

Surprisingly, it was the Arguments of Antiquity that did for them ... Aristotle through to Aquinas provided a philosophical foundation from which to investiage the 'new' truth of the Enlightenment ... and lo and behold! That truth was found wanting! (see Cognitional Theory for example, which argues that certainty can be known. Existentialism was another ... )

Today, I would say the arguments of Catholic Doctrine are 'right on the mark' and Catholic theologians have held some of the highest positions in the world of philosophy. Post-50s Christianity (New Age Christianity/Liberal Christianity) still clings to a faulty and outmoded methodology of a worn-out Anglo-American empirical criticism, and will eventually dwindle to largely a US-phenomena, an outgrowth of the hippy movement and 60s pop philosophy.

I mean if we are to be open we know there are contradictions and modifications and historical errors. Hence the reasons for long drawn out explanations and theories to prove same.
Indeed we do ... that's what Dei Verbum explains, or in greater depth:
Interpretation of the Bible in the Church

The encyclical "Faith and Reason" talks of faith and reason as the 'wings' by which one ascends ... neither faith nor reason alone will suffice ...

As a note of real interest, whilst Scripture has been 'defined' ... the infallibility of Scripture, the question of the human processes behind it, revelation, inspiration, intuition, insight ... is an open book and the Magisterium has asked that theologians and philosophers investigate the matter in greater depth.

Thomas
 
... Scripture in toto is the record of the witness of the Hebraic experience, intuition, insight, illumination and revelation of the Divine, it is not just a record of Revelation, rather it is the Record of a Salvation History....In Christendom it was all regarded as the unalloyed Word of God, and then as we grew more wise we realised this can't quite be the case.....The Enlightenment took an extreme position — theirs was a 'new' truth that rendered all prior to it as false. There is no supernatural, no divine intervention, no revelation, so all Scripture is just a silly old myth. In fact 'history' should be consigned to the trash can.... 18/19th century, Protestant theologians unpicked their religion until there was nothing left but unknowingness and a pious attitude. Religion was reduced to a humanism, a system of ethics (my criticism of 'liberal Christianity').....
Slowly, the Catholic Church began to realise that the answer lay in expressing the 'old' truths in a 'new' way ... ...
Today, I would say the arguments of Catholic Doctrine are 'right on the mark' and Catholic theologians have held some of the highest positions in the world of philosophy. Post-50s Christianity (New Age Christianity/Liberal Christianity) still clings to a faulty and outmoded methodology of a worn-out Anglo-American empirical criticism, and will eventually dwindle to largely a US-phenomena, an outgrowth of the hippy movement and 60s pop philosophy..
Namaste Thomas,

You constantly waiver between amazing me and baffling me. I'm surprised you didn't break every catholics elbow with the big pat on the back repeating the tried and tired "We are the only one and true religion and only one and true Christians"

I so respect your studies, just wish you were able to break free or some of it. How is New Thought which has remained largely unchanged since the turn of the century a product of the hippies and the post '50's?

Which Christians said it was ALL mythology, NO divinity?

How the heck does the Catholic new way of looking at scripture but still claim infallibility? Plays on words in this regard are amazing.

I find it all quite sad.
 
Hi Wil —

"Tried and tired" doesn't make it any less true — and I would rather tried and tested, than investing my life in the untried and untested ...

How is New Thought which has remained largely unchanged since the turn of the century a product of the hippies and the post '50's?
Can you define 'New Thought' — are you proposing that as a philosophical school?

There is a general movement in philosophy today to recognise a paradigm shift that occurred post war and emerged socially in the movements of the 50-60s. Generally prior to this, truth was still considered the goal of objectivity, and there were certain objective standards by which truth, morality, ethics etc., were measured.

Post 60s saw a move to 'truth as narrative' ...
Evan Thomas of "Newsweek" was quoted in the American Journalism Review:
"We fell into a stereotype of the Duke lacrosse players ... The narrative [adopted by the media] was about race, sex, and class ... We went a beat too fast in assuming that a rape took place ... We just got the facts wrong. The narrative was right, but the facts were wrong."

That's the position in the West today ... if the narrative works, it is 'truth', regardless of any attachment to reality.

Traditional Christianity works the other way round. What we depend on as being 'true' is tradition — whether you choose to accept 'tradition' as true or not, you are obliged to accept that tradition has a stronger case going for it than the alternatives ... so on whatever grounds you mistrust tradition, you must apply the same criterion in every other case as well.

Which Christians said it was ALL mythology, NO divinity?
I didn't say 'Christians', but philosphers of the Enlightenment, largely and most influentially in Germany. They declared the 'historical process' as unreliable, and therefore all historical texts were, to some degree, mythologies, more than objective accounts.

"The Quest for the Historical Jesus" for example, was begun by a deist (Reimarus) who was violently anti-supernaturalist and denied any aspect of the divine or the miraculous in Christ. Strauss followed. Schweitzer moderated their position somewhat ... but here is the root from which 'liberal Christianity' sprang — it did not spontaneously occur out of nowhere — and the 60s has had further significant impact.

Then again, Rudolf Karl Bultmann (1884-1976 — a Lutheran), one of if not perhaps the most influential theologian of the 20th century, said precisely that.

I would say, of 'liberal Christianity' generally, that it is more dependent on the modern mythologising process than any accusation of mythologisation aimed at traditional Christian understanding.

How the heck does the Catholic new way of looking at scripture but still claim infallibility? Plays on words in this regard are amazing.
We don't look new, we look harder at what we've got ... as I said we follow the method established by the Greeks, with refinements as we go on. In so doing we saw the flaws inherent in the Enlightenment position. What they argue as de facto we now say is not a given.

The evidence is that Plato, Aristotle et al still figure as luminaries in the philosophical firmament, as does Aquinas (Thomism is discussed even in secular schools) and Lonergan has set the benchmark in Cognitional Theory.

Relativism, which is currently the fundamental philosophy of the West, is being shown to be too personalist, too subjective, too sentimental.

Most notably is the proliferation of Jesus images in the last 150 years, and the obvious fact, emerging from all these images, is that in rejecting objectivity, we fall back on subjective projection ... they're not who Jesus is, and some would argue it does not matter who the historical Jesus was, or whether He was at all, theses images represent who we choose him to be ... revolutionary, feminist, socialist, humanist ... teacher, sage, prophet, mystic, angel, charlatan, saint, avatar ... even an alien ... they are all self-projections which sit shaped and conformed to a given sociopolitical milleau in which they derive their meaning.

The Catholic Church sticks rigorously to the teachings of the Tradition, and the Greek philosophical method. Some may wish to argue that neither can confer infallibility, but they remain our best bet.

We can argue that this image is more sure, more secure and more grounded in the data we have available, than the proliferation of images that began with the Reformation, and really got going in the wake of the influence of post-Enlightenment German pietism, which shift and alter as social circumstances shifts and alters.

The reason why the Catholic Church refuses to change is that the dynamism of change that motives Western society is consumerism, novelty and the cult of the individual.

The Orthodox tradition, for example, eschews 'religious art' (far too emotional and subjective for them, way too maudlin) and sticks to the rules of ikon painting ...

... I was never a huge fan of ikons particularly, but God save me from these California beach-bum images that pass as portraits of Jesus that proliferate today!

Thomas
 
Can you define 'New Thought' — are you proposing that as a philosophical school?

Traditional Christianity works the other way round. What we depend on as being 'true' is tradition — whether you choose to accept 'tradition' as true or not,

The Catholic Church sticks rigorously to the teachings of the Tradition, and the Greek philosophical method. Some may wish to argue that neither can confer infallibility, but they remain our best bet.
The Orthodox tradition, for example, eschews 'religious art' (far too emotional and subjective for them, way too maudlin) and sticks to the rules of ikon painting ...

... I was never a huge fan of ikons particularly, but God save me from these California beach-bum images that pass as portraits of Jesus that proliferate today!
Namaste Thomas, could easily be a group of California beach bums sitting at the Krishna buffet that DaVinci painted, the heretic, and what about the Sistine Chapel ceiling, or all those little medallions folks wear, seems the church is not beyond ikonery to me.

As for tradition, most nations and the bible has a big tradition on slavery, concubines and the like...I personally have moved beyond this. And see no need to hold on to anything just because "That's the way we've always done it"

As for the New Thought movement, I just googled it and got more detailed explanations than I could provide.
 
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