Possible Vedic (or other Eastern) imagery in the Book of Job?

[seattlegal]

The book of Job begins:

1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil. 2 And seven sons and three daughters were born to him. 3 Also, his possessions were seven thousand sheep, three thousand camels, five hundred yoke of oxen, five hundred female donkeys, and a very large household, so that this man was the greatest of all the people of the East.

Job was from the East. I had always thought of the Book Of Job as having a higly Zoroastrian element to it, because in this book Satan is actually personified and speaking to God, much like the dualistic pair of Ahura Mazda and Ahriman of Zoroastrianism. However, when I made a reference to leviathan from Job 41 as a parallel to "The Shadow" of the Unconscious mind, a Hindu made a connection between leviathan and makara of Hindu mythology. Since Job was "from the East," I'm wondering just how much imagery parallel to Hinduism (or other Eastern traditions) it contains.

Anyone interested in exploring this?

 

[bananabrain]

quite a few of the talmudic sages hold that job never existed and that the story is only meant as a parable. the thing is, you'll note that even though ha-satan is personified, it is never represented as doing anything other than G!D's bidding - at no point does it act outside of its purview. that is a reflection of the jewish perspective on evil, that it too is a part of the Divine Plan, not at all evidence of dualistic thought. in no way, shape or form is ha-satan portrayed as having equivalent power to G!D, or even opposing G!D. so, personally, i think you're barking up the wrong tree here.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Netti-Netti]

Mmm. I think bananabrain was lookin' at it from G-d's point of view. I'd look at it from the individual human's point of view.

I don't think evil exists for G-d. Evil is an issue for humans given the imperfection of matter (the tenuous physical world, natural disasters, infirmity, sickness, and death) and our faulty understanding of our incompleteness which makes us do foolish/crazy things.

 

[Dah-veeth]

Mmm. I think bananabrain was lookin' at it from G-d's point of view. I'd look at it from the individual human's point of view.

I don't think evil exists for G-d. Evil is an issue for humans given the imperfection of matter (the tenuous physical world, natural disasters, infirmity, sickness, and death) and our faulty understanding of our incompleteness which makes us do foolish/crazy things.

I believe that God only creates good and that anything evil is from human beings.

"Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves." -Baha'u'llah

 

[seattlegal]

I believe that God only creates good and that anything evil is from human beings.

"Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves." -Baha'u'llah

Interestingly, that is the argument that Job's companions were trying to make to Job--that the bad things that had happened to him must have been due to some sort of fault within Job himself. Hmm, and the exploration and soul-searching begins...

 

[Dream]

I've heard a theory that Job is a play that re-enacts the life of Hezekiah or some other historical Bible figure.

 

[Devadatta]

The book of Job begins:

Job was from the East. I had always thought of the Book Of Job as having a higly Zoroastrian element to it, because in this book Satan is actually personified and speaking to God, much like the dualistic pair of Ahura Mazda and Ahriman of Zoroastrianism. However, when I made a reference to leviathan from Job 41 as a parallel to "The Shadow" of the Unconscious mind, a Hindu made a connection between leviathan and makara of Hindu mythology. Since Job was "from the East," I'm wondering just how much imagery parallel to Hinduism (or other Eastern traditions) it contains.

Anyone interested in exploring this?

Hi Seattle. I’ve looked makara up in a couple of other places but really come up with no more than you’ve pointed to on Wiki. So I don’t see much to go on here except the obvious psychological parallels of mythical aquatic beasts of the unconscious, associated with the instincts, and even there as you see makara is associated principly with lust and desire and leviathan/behemoth with a kind of primal power, as king of all unconscious beasts. What I think you need to find is a narrative setting for the makara in some way similar to the book of Job, but I don’t know of any.

As for the Zoroastrian connection, my pure speculation is that perhaps the writer of this book knew about their beliefs but wasn’t in fact following them; instead, he was asserting the Jewish view and only using Satan as a device in a parable, as BB suggests.

Actually, maybe a more interesting parallel for you to explore would be that between the Book of Job and Bhagavad Gita; not because I’m suggesting there’s any influence involved here, but because here you have the same fundamental structure: both Arjuna and Job are at a point of moral crisis, both are essentially saying “f*** it, I can’t do this anymore, and the solution in both cases is the same: God bloooows their minds (paste in Jimi Hendrix guitar riff here) in a grand hierophany. How each narrative arrives at that hierophany and the many other differences in circumstances, content and tone tells you a lot about two contrasting spiritual world views.

Sorry I couldn’t be any real help here.

Cheers, Shanti, etc.

 

[seattlegal]

Thanks, Devadatta. Yes, the soul-searching part is probably the best way to approach it, now that I've looked at it a bit more closely.

 

[Dondi]

It seems to me that Satan is merely used as an instrument of God to try Job's faith. If satan is not real, then the circumstances surrounding Job certainly is and it may be that it is an explanation that, like Kushner said, bad things happen to good people. It is a study in the response to harse conditions imposed on Job that is at issue here. What is our attitude toward God when sh*t happens? What is the attitude toward ourselves when sh*t happens? Do we blame ourselves when things don't go our way? How do react when our friends give poor counsel? (I mean, misery loves company, but only if the company doesn't make you feel worse than you already are.) Or when our spouse blames us for something beyond our control?

Incidently, many preachers try to paint Job's son's and daughter's as wanton carousers, thus that's why they were hit with calamity. The logic being that while they were off eating and drinking, Job offered sacrifices for them. But Job only did so because "It MAY be that my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts," which just seems like sensible maintenance to me. If Job raised hellish kids, then that hardly makes him perfect. Eli, on the other hand, definitely spawned bad seed, and was thus dealt with harshly.

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

within the context of traditional Sanatana Dharma (Hindu) every noumena and phenomena is an aspect of MahaBrahma even the traditionally ascribed adversary or Mara. in that aspect it mirrors Judaic thought on ha-satan being an agent of G-D rather than an independent being opposed to G-D. a key difference between Sanatana Dharma and the Abrahamic conceptions, particuarly the Christian, is the difference between G-D and humanity. within the context of the Abrahamic traditions G-D and humans are not the same, there is an intrinsic difference between them whereas in the Sanatana Dharma (and within all the Dharma traditions which posit a creator) the difference is psychological, the difference between G-D and humans is soley within the humans psychological outlook.

now it would be fair to say that the particular understanding of the relationship or way in which the beings manifest is different though that is an area of Sanatana Dharma which i'm not conversant enough and, i dare say, the same would apply to Judaic thought on this matter.

 

[shawn]

History is full of stories of men who lost everything they possessed, and then starting out all over again, recouped their losses and went on to undreamed of success.
You can't keep a good man down.
We have all known of failures who made a comeback.
Such a man was Job, whose name in Hebrew means "returning or coming back"

This book is a dramatic poem, a philosophical drama, in which the characters represent attitudes of mind or states of consciousness.

 

[Sancho]

Berhard Anderson, in "The living world of the old testament," has this to say about the book of Job.

In fact, the effectiveness of the poems is due largely to their being framed within the context of a folk tale. Since the story is located in Edom, the area southeast of the Dead Sea on the border of the Arabian Desert, it is possible that the Job legend originated in Edomitic territory around Teman. In any case, the author of the poems appropriated an old story as a literary framework within which to place his poetry. The story provides the life situation that occasions the poetic meditations. Intending to address his himself to the deepest problem of every man, the poet wisely bases his meditation upon the experience of one man whose whose legendary righteousness was well known in antiquity. [. . . ] Ezekiel mentions Job together with Daniel as legendary wise and righteous men (Ezek. 14:14, 20). Daniel (or Dan'el) was celebrated in Canaanite legend now known to us in the Ras Shamra literature. Similarly, the story of Job must have circulated orally for many years before it was written down as we now have it.

It is very likely that many legends and thoughts of all kinds were shared between the ancient civilizations of India the Middle East and North Africa. Later Europe claimed ownership of many of these.

Another cross-pollination which I find interesting is the morality play Everyman, which is believed to have been derived from a Buddhist source. It is essentially about karma: only your good deeds will accompany you to your grave.

 

[Izheheruvim]

Though this story might reveal many levels to reflect upon, I'm specifically attracted with just the two One is that Job, despite all his piety, brooded all that stuff about world injustice and evil, but couldn't dare to challenge God as it seemed profane to do that. Only when decease struck him and weakened these inner restraints for lamentation, it poured out and crushed all "environmentally-friendly" arguments )). But after God himself came to hold answer, it pacified and enlightened Job, and in conclusion Job's friends, advocates of God, turn out those who, unlike Job, should seek for God's forgiveness. And this furthers to the next level of reflection: incomprehensibility of God for human and human for God. What God does might seem weird or sometimes cruel in human terms, but He does what He does, that's that. Yet God, in turn, can not comprehend the way a limited being like human might feel or think, as God is always transcendent despite all the capacity to be within one's shoes. So the grudges people might have can be fairly justified, but, as the story of Job illustrates, they can be perfectly resolved with direct Divine response. Hopefully the blow went home )

 

[Avi]

Seattlegal, I am very interested in exploring some of the areas where religions can connect at an abstract level. I think you have chosen a good example.
I will quote some commentary from the JPS which relates to the portion of Job that you reference, Job 41. It is a very imaginative and original interpretation.

Bava Batra 74b concludes that originally there were two Leviathans, one of each sex, who might have procreated and taken over the universe. Therefore G-d castrated the male and killed the female and preserved her in salt to be served up at the great escatological feast to which all the righteous will be invited and at which the principal food item will be Leviathan. It was but one more step to note that behemoth, which is paired with Leviathan only in Job 40.15-32, must represent another principle food item to be served up at the eschathological banquet, namely a choice kind of beef (also called “wild bull”). A further leap of the Jewish imagination led to the realization that the menu of the escathological banquet, which certainly could not have provided only fish, and which included both Leviathan conceived of as fish and behemoth conceived of as beef, must also include some kind of fowl. The last menu item was provided by the enigmatic Ziz, translated as “creatures of the field” by NJPS. Job anticipated the argument that the Lord’s power over the mythical sea-monsters proves that G-d is indeed in charge of the universe and that cosmic anarchy cannot explain Job’s unjust suffering.

This very vivid description of the Job vision sounds to me like there could be a connection to the mythological ideas you mentioned.

 

[Avi]

Sancho, that is an interesting reference you found to the Ras Shamra. That is Ugaritic, I found that connection as well, elsewhere, back to the source !

 

[seattlegal]

Seattlegal, I am very interested in exploring some of the areas where religions can connect at an abstract level. I think you have chosen a good example.
I will quote some commentary from the JPS which relates to the portion of Job that you reference, Job 41. It is a very imaginative and original interpretation.


This very vivid description of the Job vision sounds to me like there could be a connection to the mythological ideas you mentioned.

Interestingly, I just posted something regarding this story recently on another thread.
For some reason, I thought that the "live" leviathan was a female, and the male was the one that was killed. (Whereas with the behemoth was the male one that was alive.) I'm glad you cleared that up for me. Thanks.