adultery

i believe there was this guy a few years back whose wife gave him permission for just this and it all went a bit horribly wrong. i believe his name was abraham.
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BB,

She didn't just give him permission--it was her idea in the first place! And we've been dealing with the fallout ever since...

--Linda
 
if people see us acting admirably, they will have more respect for G!D who Commanded us to act so. this principle is supposed to be enshrined in everything we do - INCLUDING MIDDLE-EASTERN POLITICS, fyi. next time you get into a debate with someone jewish about israel, ask him whether he thinks the way the settlers act is a "kiddush haShem" or not.
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BB,

They can ask me...I'll be more than happy to tell them EXACTLY what I think on that subject! In fact, I won't even wait for anyone to ask. Is it "kiddush haShem" or not? It's the complete opposite--their behavior is a desecration of God's name.

--Linda
 
the phrase you're looking for is hillul haShem, a desecration of the Divine Name. but still, i would steer clear of wholesale denunciations of any one group. for example, rabbi menachem froman of tekoa (a west bank settlement) who is a major figure in the interfaith world, enjoys cordial relations with his arab neighbours and participates in numerous bridge-building initiatives. likewise, my cousin's husband's family, who live in another settlement, are perfectly reasonable, rational religious people - they just don't see why they should have to move for political reasons, but neither do they wish to oppress palestinians. they're on an entirely different plane from the levingers and elons of this world.

again - we're getting onto a different subject here!

incest would necessarily be mamzerut if the couple were jewish, but even if they're not this would still be prohibited as forbidden sexual conduct for non-jews under the noahide laws - as indeed under any system of sexual conduct from any human society i've ever heard of. it's not often agreed precisely what the noahide prohibition is; some say homosexual sodomy all the way over to incest, others say merely incest, paedophilia and the like. i've never heard a hard and fast argument to define precisely what the phrase used, gilui 'arayot means in the context of the noahide laws but i'm certain it doesn't cover sodomy.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
bananabrain said:
i guess my starting point here would be slightly odd unless you understand where i'm coming from. as far as i can tell, nearly all the laws around marriage are for the benefit and protection of everybody concerned, husband, wife and children. however, the technical term here translated as "adultery", TiNAPh is not what the english term means. the hebrew term signifies literally "moving from one to the other" and, as the rashi commentary explains:

Adultery applies only [to relations] with a married woman, as it is said: "[And a man who commits adultery with the wife of a[nother] man, who commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor,] [both] the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death" (Lev. 20:10); [and it says,] “[You are] the adulterous wife, who, instead of her husband, takes strangers” (Ezek. 16:32). [In both these verses, the term “adultery” is used in reference to the extramarital relations of a married woman.]
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b'shalom

bananabrain
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Do you have a link for this, bananabrain? Thank you. :)
 
Hi BB

Apologies, my life consists of working and sleeping these days and nothing in between so haven't been able to get back for a while.

I think I have asked all I need to on this but it has been a really interesting and enlightening discussion, thank you.

I was astonished by your link re Ashkenazi Jews (my blood ran rather cold when I saw the words German and AshkeNAZI on the same page and was very relieved to read that it is pronounced differently). However, ivery interesting read.

Of course we Muslims also have the 'treat others in a way that respects G-d's Name' rule - just a shame people do not stand in their pulpits on Friday and rant about that one.

It is most certainly a tangled and ugly web we humans weave.

Salaam
 
yes, it is a bit of an odd coincidence, but the word "ashkenazi" is from the character "ashkenaz" in the bible and there's no etymological connection. in any case the association of ashkenaz with germany is a relatively recent one, ie about 1000 years old and is merely a convention, like "sefarad" being associated with spain, or "edom" with rome.

but yes, exactly what you said.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
"Ashkenaz" arose from a scribal error (nun for waw) for "Ashkuz", the form used in Assyrian/Babylonian records for the people who called themselves something like "Shkuz", Iranian-speakers who lorded it over the Slavic peasants on the western steppes (the name survives in Ukrainian as the insult "scuzz", which has made it into English slang); the Greek form was "Skuth", giving rise to the Latin name "Scythia" for Ukraine. "Ashkenaz" in Hebrew came to be broadened from Ukraine to Eastern Europe in general over time; in the medieval period it referred especially to Khazary, a Ukrainian kingdom whose ruling family converted to Judaism (most of the Khazar people themselves, now called "Chuvash", converted to Islam instead; but Khazary became a refuge for Jews fleeing Byzantine and Persian persecutions).
 
Because there is no dialect which pronounces the long-u vowel as an n-consonant. On the other hand, the written difference between waw and nun is a single, short stroke.
 
i still don't see why the word in TaNaKh couldn't have evolved in some other way, however. after all, consonants get added and dropped all the time when people render "foreign" words into a local language.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
Internal insertion of a nun would be unprecedented; while single-stroke letter alteration is a commonplace ("Nebuchadnezzar"/"Nebuchadrezzar" and "Barduk-Baladan"/"Marduk-Baladan" are cases where both the erroneous form, listed first, and the correct form are both found in the Tanakh, and copyist error is the obvious explanation).
 
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