Abraham's Bosom

[Pico]

At a Bible study today the leader's wife was telling our table (much off topic too, dont' remeber who asked what to prompt her to say this) but she said when we die we don't go to heaven but to Abraham's Bosom in the earth. She said we'll be with the lord in the New Jerusalem.

I said, well the New Jerusalem is after the consumation, what happens if I die now?

She referenced the story in Luke where the poor guy dies and is with Abraham and sees the other guy in torment.

But I would have sworn that somewhere in the New Testament it (or soemoene) states that when we die we will be with the Lord. Jesus ascended into heaven with the Father, if we were to go down below we wouldn't be with Jesus. Also the NT says that God is now our Father and we his children. Everything he has is ours. Our Father lives in heaven, we would live in heaven, yes?

 

[Joedjr]

Hi Pico,

At a Bible study today the leader's wife was telling our table (much off topic too, dont' remeber who asked what to prompt her to say this) but she said when we die we don't go to heaven but to Abraham's Bosom in the earth. She said we'll be with the lord in the New Jerusalem.

Sounds a little like what Mee has been saying.
Joe

 

[wil]

I believe it is a common misconception that Christians are headed to the lord immediately.

According to scripture we are all headed to the way station and will all be called up together. There are a lot of folks there waiting if this is so.

I can't remember the exact scripture, but about twenty years ago looked into this fully enough to sastify myself that is how it was written.

Tis times like this the literalists complain they've been sold a bill of goods, feel they got bait and switched at Sunday school and in service. Like with anything, gotta read the small print.

 

[mee]

Hi Pico,



Sounds a little like what Mee has been saying.
Joe

when we die we go to dust ,and at a future time if we are in Jehovahs memory we will be resurrected. but it is as if we are asleep . because Gods memory is verrry goood and he can give us a new body .

most people will be resurrected on a paradise earth , only a little flock will go to heaven when they are resurrected, those ones will be resurrected with a spiritual body to live in heaven , but those who are resurrected to live on the earth will be resurrected with a fleshly body .

 

[Dondi]

But I would have sworn that somewhere in the New Testament it (or soemoene) states that when we die we will be with the Lord. Jesus ascended into heaven with the Father, if we were to go down below we wouldn't be with Jesus. Also the NT says that God is now our Father and we his children. Everything he has is ours. Our Father lives in heaven, we would live in heaven, yes?

I believe this is what you are looking for:

II Corinthians 5:1-9

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
(For we walk by faith, not by sight)
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him."

 

[path_of_one]

I thought of this...

Luke 23:42-44 (New American Standard Bible)



42And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in (A)Paradise."

Now whether Jesus is in heaven or not, and where/what Paradise is... I do not know.

But the "today" part seems pretty clear.

 

[mee]

I thought of this...

Luke 23:42-44 (New American Standard Bible)



42And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in (A)Paradise."

Now whether Jesus is in heaven or not, and where/what Paradise is... I do not know.

But the "today" part seems pretty clear.

The​

​

Problem of Punctuation​

The grammatical aspects of the Greek text allow for placing a comma (or, colon) either before or after "today." But how did the writer Luke punctuate the sentence? The truth is, he did not! Professor Oscar Paret explains that the form of Greek script in which the "New Testament" was written "is composed solely of capital letters . . . loosely set next to one another without any punctuation to separate words and sentences. Greek literature used this script down to the 9th century C.E." Thus in translating Jesus’ statement W. G. Ballantine, a professor of Hebrew and Greek, did not insert punctuation: "I tell you truly to-day you will be with me in Paradise."—The Riverside New Testament.​

Some have contended, however, that the expression "I tell you truly" or "Truly I tell you" does not allow for adding the word "today" to it. Is that true? Note what Dr. George Lamsa writes:
"According to the Aramaic manner of speech, the emphasis in this text is on the word ‘today’ and should read [as it does in the New World Translation], ‘Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.’ . . . This is a characteristic of Oriental speech implying that the promise was made on a certain day and would surely be kept."—Gospel Light from Aramaic on the Teachings of Jesus.​

 

[path_of_one]

Well, of course as usual the JWs have their own translation that does not fit with others. NASB is largely regarded as one of the most accurate translations, and since I am not JW and do not have the Watchtower indicating to me which translation to read, I will stick with what has a good reputation among a lot of scholars.

Now, without punctuation, that means there is no indication either way. Not for the JW interpretation or the NASB/NIV/etc. interpretations.

"I tell you truly today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Well, then let the interpretation begin. I happen to think if the emphasis is on today, then the English equivalent would put the "today" in the second clause. Think about how you read it (aloud).

I tell you truly today, YOU will be with Me in Paradise. (makes grammatical sense)

I tell you truly TODAY, you will be with Me in Paradise. (not so much, why emphasize today in this way)

I tell you truly, TODAY you will be with Me in Paradise. (also makes grammatical sense)

Whatever Lamsa says (and I do respect him, and have read his version, which is the Eastern Orthodox one), it just doesn't make sense to emphasize today. What other day would it be? Of course, if Jesus is making the promise hanging on a cross to another guy hanging on a cross, today is about the only day that the promise can be made. Even under less dire circumstances, it would not make sense. That is like me saying...

"I tell you truly today I am going grocery-shopping."

And then arguing that what the statement really means is that I will be going grocery-shopping on a different day, after certain other events have come to pass, but what was important about the statement was that I promised the shopping trip on this very day. That makes no sense. Any English speaker would, if given this sentence, put the comma before "today" for it to make sense.

What is important about the Bible passage is the second part- we will be with Him in Paradise. It is not the date on which he promised the guy.

Of course, this will all be thrown out by mee to be "human teachings," whereas the Watchtower is somehow teachings straight from God. But, whatever.

It may interest you to know, mee, that Dr. Lamsa's translation is contested and was not for the JWs. His scholarship has been questioned. Also, he has some other interesting (and non-conventional) interpretations that you may not agree with.

As an example of his most debated translation (and the biggest difference with other translations):

From Wiki:

A notable difference between Lamsa's translation and other versions of the New Testament occurs in the fourth of the Words of Jesus on the cross – Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani. These are regarded by virtually all scholars[attribution needed] as a quotation in Aramaic of the opening of Psalm 22, which in English is "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" While this is similar to how the psalm appears in the Aramaic Peshitta Old Testament, it also appears in earlier Aramaic Targums. Lamsa believed that the text of the Gospels was corrupt, and that it is not a quotation but should read /Eli, Eli, lemana shabaqthani, which he translates as: "My God, my God, for this I was spared!" An accompanying footnote in Lamsa's English version of the Bible explains Jesus's meaning as "This was my destiny."
Aramaic grammars and dictionaries,[6] however, contend with Lamsa's assertion about Jesus' last words, as the word שבקתני [shvaqtani] in Aramaic is the perfect 2nd person singular form of the verb שבק [shvaq] which means "to leave, to leave s.t. left over, to abandon," or "to permit"[7] with the 1st person singular pronoun affixed. This would, in turn, cause the phrase to translate as "why have you left me?" "why have you let me be?" "why have you abandoned me?" or "why have you permitted me?"

Now, hey, what do you know? Now that the JWs don't agree with Lamsa, they go with a totally different interpretation than his (the conventional one, in this case.)

From the NWT:
About the ninth hour Jesus called out with a loud voice, saying: “E´li, E´li, la´ma sa·bach·tha´ni?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Hmmm....

It seems like JW is cutting and pasting various types of scholarship from various sources, willy-nilly, when it suits their cause.

 

[bananabrain]

it occurs to me that it could in fact be a corruption of "lama ShaKhaHThaNI" from psalm *42*, where the "kh" has been misread as a "b" - the two letters are very similar. in ps. 22 it's "LaMaH 'AZaBhThaNI" in the original. with 42 there's no such need to resort to aramaic. in fact, in 42, there's no "ELI, ELI" preceding it, so it could indeed be a conflation of two similar verses.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[greymare]

when we die we go to dust ,and at a future time if we are in Jehovahs memory we will be resurrected. but it is as if we are asleep . because Gods memory is verrry goood and he can give us a new body .

most people will be resurrected on a paradise earth , only a little flock will go to heaven when they are resurrected, those ones will be resurrected with a spiritual body to live in heaven , but those who are resurrected to live on the earth will be resurrected with a fleshly body .

I want a fleshy body, but not toooooo much flesh, ok? got enough of that now and its a bit of a job to keep it in tow. lol.

 

[mee]

I want a fleshy body, but not toooooo much flesh, ok? got enough of that now and its a bit of a job to keep it in tow. lol.

i think we will be just right ............... we wont need comfort food we will be comforted . but i hope we have choccy bars yum yum ... i must work on my self discipline i must not eat ALL OF THE BAR

 

[mee]

in his footnote on Luke 23:43, German Bible translator L. Reinhardt says: "The punctuation presently used [by most Bibles] in this verse is undoubtedly false and contradictory to the entire way of thinking of Christ and the evildoer. . . . [Jesus] certainly did not understand paradise to be a subdivision of the realm of the dead, but rather the restoration of a paradise on earth."


Yes, all those years ago, when Jesus made that promise to the evildoer, the time for establishing the Messianic kingdom over the earth had not yet arrived. (Rev. 11:15; Acts 1:6, 7)

But historic events of our time in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicate that the time for Christ to act as an installed king to eliminate wickedness from the earth is right before us. (Matt. 24:3-22)

Then this earth will be transformed into a paradise, fulfilling Messianic prophecies that the Jewish evildoer may well have known about.

By means of the miracle of resurrection many persons, including that evildoer, will come back to life in the earthly realm of the Kingdom. In this way Jesus will fulfill his words spoken so long ago: "Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise."





Note that Jesus did not ascend to heaven the day he died or even the day he was resurrected. Shortly after his resurrection he told Mary: "I have not yet ascended to the Father." This also has a bearing on the question as to when what Jesus said to the evildoer applies.—John 20:17.

 

[Pico]

I believe this is what you are looking for:

II Corinthians 5:1-9

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. "

That's it. I'd say this quote from Paul settles the whole issue. "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," is the way many other translations put it.

The Lord ascended to the Father in Heaven. If we are to be with him when we leave our body we will be in Heaven. Doesn't leave much leeway room.

 

[mee]

What​

​

is the Paradise that Jesus promised to the evildoer who died alongside him?​

Luke’s account shows that an evildoer, being executed alongside Jesus Christ, spoke words in Jesus’ defense and requested that Jesus remember him when he ‘got into his kingdom.’ Jesus’ reply was: "Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise." (Lu 23:39-43)

The punctuation shown in the rendering of these words must, of course, depend on the translator’s understanding of the sense of Jesus’ words, since no punctuation was used in the original Greek text.

Punctuation in the modern style did not become common until about the ninth century C.E.
Whereas many translations place a comma before the word "today" and thereby give the impression that the evildoer entered Paradise that same day, there is nothing in the rest of the Scriptures to support this.

Jesus himself was dead and in the tomb until the third day and was then resurrected as "the firstfruits" of the resurrection. (Ac 10:40; 1Co 15:20; Col 1:18) He ascended to heaven 40 days later.—Joh 20:17; Ac 1:1-3, 9.



The evidence is, therefore, that Jesus’ use of the word "today" was not to give the time of the evildoer’s being in Paradise but, rather, to call attention to the time in which the promise was being made and during which the evildoer had shown a measure of faith in Jesus.

It was a day when Jesus had been rejected and condemned by the highest-ranking religious leaders of his own people and was thereafter sentenced to die by Roman authority. He had become an object of scorn and ridicule.

So the wrongdoer alongside him had shown a notable quality and commendable heart attitude in not going along with the crowd but, rather, speaking out in Jesus’ behalf and expressing belief in his coming Kingship.


Recognizing that the emphasis is correctly placed on the time of the promise’s being made rather than on the time of its fulfillment, other translations, such as those in English by Rotherham and Lamsa, those in German by Reinhardt and W. Michaelis, as well as the Curetonian Syriac of the fifth century C.E., rendered the text in a form similar to the reading of the New World Translation​

"Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth. matthew5;5

 

[path_of_one]

Mee, you never responded to the issue of Lamsa's contestability, nor to the fact that the JW themselves do not accept his translation in some cases, but do in others (and thus show inconsistency).

Restating the same thing in a new format is not the same as responding to my point. Perhaps explain how the JW make their own decision about the appropriateness of one translation over another- that is, why they agree with Lamsa on one point and not on another, if they are so insistent that the appropriate translation is the one from Aramaic?

As the others bring up (from Paul), there are more indications than just this one I posted that we leave our bodies to go somewhere else.

To be honest, any particular belief in the afterlife is not that important to my own faith, but I was just putting out there what the Bible says (in generally accepted and non-contested translations).

 

[mee]

In the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures Luke 23:43 reads: "And he said to him: ‘Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.’" Jesus said this in answer to the following request of one of the evildoers hung beside him: "Jesus, remember me when you get into your kingdom."—Luke 23:42.

However, other Bible translations punctuate Luke 23:43 differently. For instance, the King James Version says: "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."


There is no question but that the position of the comma changes the meaning of the verse.

In the King James Version the comma’s being placed before the word "today" makes it appear that Jesus told the evildoer that he would be in Paradise that very same day.

This would mean that Jesus would have to come into his Kingdom, and that Jesus, as well as the evildoer, would be in Paradise on that very day that he was speaking.


In the original Greek language of the Christian Greek Scriptures, how is this sentence punctuated?

It is not punctuated at all. Why not? Because the writers of the Greek Scriptures did not use punctuation at that time.

The Encyclopedia Americana, 1956, Volume 23, page 16, states: "No attempt to punctuate is apparent in the earlier manuscripts and inscriptions of the Greeks." It was not until the 9th century C.E. that punctuation came into general use.

Although later Greek texts such as that of Westcott and Hort put the comma before the Greek word for "today," they did so according to their own understanding and religious beliefs.

However, neither the comma nor any of the other punctuation was there in the older Greek texts.


Where, then, should the comma be put? What is the testimony of God’s own Word on this matter? What did Jesus himself say? Did he believe he was going to inherit his kingdom and be in some kind of Paradise immediately after he died, in that same twenty-four-hour period?


Earlier, to his disciples, Jesus stated: "The Son of man must undergo many sufferings and be rejected by the older men and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised up." (Luke 9:22) The two angels at the tomb told the women who had come there: "He is not here, but has been raised up. Recall how he spoke to you while he was yet in Galilee, saying that the Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be impaled and yet on the third day rise."—Luke 24:6, 7.


Jesus was not resurrected on the day he died, but on the third day from his death. Thus, he could not have come into his kingdom on the day of his death.


Then where was he during those three days, before his resurrection? Acts 2:24 says: "God resurrected him by loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to continue to be held fast by it." So Jesus was in the grip of death during that time.

Acts 2:27 further says concerning him: "You will not leave my soul in Hades, neither will you allow your loyal one to see corruption." Hence, Jesus was in Hades, which is mankind’s common grave.

And the Bible says that there is "no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol [LXX, Hades]." So he was out of existence in Hades, as was the evildoer.—Eccl. 9:5, 10.


Then, on the third day from his death, God raised Jesus from the dead as a mighty spirit creature. But the evildoer was not raised; he stayed in the grave.—1 Pet. 3:18.


When Jesus, after his resurrection, materialized to appear to his disciples, they asked him: "Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?" (Acts 1:6) Jesus showed that the answer was, No. The time had not yet come for his kingdom to be established.


Then, was God’s heavenly kingdom, with Jesus as king, established at any time during the lives of the apostles? No, for about sixty-three years after Jesus’ death and resurrection the apostle John was inspired to write that God’s kingdom was still in the future. (Revelation chapter 12) And it would be under that future kingdom that paradise would be restored.


Thus, the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, in its rendering of Luke 23:43, is consistent with the truth of God’s Word concerning the establishment of God’s kingdom, the Paradise earth that will be restored under Kingdom rule, the condition of the dead, and where Jesus was during those three days.


Other translators have also seen the difficulty involving the comma in this scripture. The Riverside New Testament avoided the problem by not putting in a comma at all, rendering it: "I tell you truly to-day you will be with me in Paradise." On the other hand, The New Testament by George M. Lamsa renders it: "Truly I say to you today, You will be with me in Paradise." Also The Emphasised Bible by Joseph B. Rotherham reads: "Verily I say unto thee this day: With me shalt thou be in Paradise."



So what Jesus was saying was that when God’s kingdom by Christ was established at a time then future, and when Paradise was restored to the earth, this evildoer could expect to be resurrected to have an opportunity for eternal life. He would be included among those mentioned at Acts 24:15, where it states: "There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous."


As an "unrighteous" person he would be resurrected and given the opportunity to learn of God’s purposes and requirements. If obedient to God and his King-Son, he would live forever on that Paradise earth, qualified to be among those of whom Psalm 37:29 foretold: "The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it."
​

 

[Faithfulservant]

besides the argument on translations and the lack of punctuation in the greek language...I would think it prudent to mention all the many many MANY times Jesus said "verily verily I say unto you" He never ever NEVER says verily verily I say unto you TODAY, .... " so one could conclude that is not what is being mean in Luke. Especially since the thief asks the Lord to remember him when He gets into His kingdom.... which would have been THAT day... today.... the day they both would die.... Jesus knowing this says verily verily I say unto you... today you will be with me in paradise...

So a little common sense and use of the intelligence our Creator gave us to reason things out... It is one of the characteritics we share with Him when He said to make Man in His image... so we CAN reason the Word out for ourselves... we arent apes.

 

[Quahom1]

I believe it is a common misconception that Christians are headed to the lord immediately.

According to scripture we are all headed to the way station and will all be called up together. There are a lot of folks there waiting if this is so.

I can't remember the exact scripture, but about twenty years ago looked into this fully enough to sastify myself that is how it was written.

Tis times like this the literalists complain they've been sold a bill of goods, feel they got bait and switched at Sunday school and in service. Like with anything, gotta read the small print.

I believe you have no idea what you are talking about, and I resent your holier than thou attitude about this subject.

When a Christian dies, they go immediately to the Lord. You look it up wil. It's been explained over and over again here on CR.

Time you listen to the Christians, instead of the philosophers...

This is their forum after all...not yours.

Q

 

[seattlegal]

John 5

16So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

19Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. 30By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.​