Helol greymare, I don't know what your beliefs are. I do know however that you do not believe in a purgatory. Do you believe in hell beng a place where God will send the nonbelievers to where they will be tortured and burned and yet not died but to live through this forever and ever???
Baptism
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Helol greymare, I don't know what your beliefs are. I do know however that you do not believe in a purgatory. Do you believe in hell beng a place where God will send the nonbelievers to where they will be tortured and burned and yet not died but to live through this forever and ever???
The Roman church is a little different (timing). The first "communion" isn't until age 8/9, when after much teaching on what it means, the child accepts, knowing the meaning of communion and how it spiritually affects them. The first confirmation is the same (age 14 or so).
You might be surprised at her beliefs, particularly pertaining to purgatory and hell...
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Interesting point Q. The Episcopal Church also has a first communion ceremony at age 7/8, and confirmation at about 14. But, as I said, communion is offered right away. Not all parents permit their kids communion though. Not sure why, but it may very well be because of Roman Catholic roots.
Of course Joe. I wouldn't dunk a child/infant in a pool of water for love nor money nor faith declaration, either. Sprinkling water is a symbolic gesture, that the guardians are seeking out on the behalf of their ward, the things of the Spirit for them, for teaching, guidance and governance.
Well to the credit and influence of the Episcopal church, my one son did receive communion at age 4, but he displayed to the Priest the uncanny ability of understanding what it meant (the priest was simply going to bless him). And to top it off, when those witnessing expected a beaming child (as if he got the best cookie), they were surpised at the seriousness on his face when he left the alter, to go back to his pew.
Who knows, maybe children are quicker than we give credit for concerning contemplating Christ's sacrifice for us.
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Oh, I think they are! We learn English before we are able to talk, right? Sure, our understanding of the sacraments grows and deepens with time and experience, but even the first understanding, that we are literally fed by Christ, can be there right from the start. My girls have never treated it as a game or treat. They have been very respectful of it, even at age two for my younger one.
Like all things we want to teach our children, the earlier we start the better.
I think when we are talking about baptism and everything in life in general we need to look at the example that Jesus Christ set for us. He was baptised simple as that. He was not an infant when he was baptised either. He was baptised by immersion in the river Jordan, not by sprinkling. In my understanding I don't believe in infant baptism because I believe baptism is a way of us making promises with god and one needs to understand the commitment we are making.
greymare
Well-Known Member
Dear winner08, that was a post from a very long time ago. ( a different life, as it were.) My life has changed and indeed so have my beliefs. Or perhaps i should say, before things changed I rejected what i was told... i wanted questions and didnt get satisfactory answers...Now, I know , i believe, I KNOW. I cannot deny that God exists, as for purgatory and hell, I think Ill just add that if we all try to be decent human beings, we should be ok.
Dear winner08, that was a post from a very long time ago. ( a different life, as it were.) My life has changed and indeed so have my beliefs. Or perhaps i should say, before things changed I rejected what i was told... i wanted questions and didnt get satisfactory answers...Now, I know , i believe, I KNOW. I cannot deny that God exists, as for purgatory and hell, I think Ill just add that if we all try to be decent human beings, we should be ok.
dear greymare: I find it so refreshing that you questioned things about their teachings. Also that it WAS your beliefs. You do know the only reason you questions thing was that God lead you to those questions. That It was and is God who directs your beliefs and choices you make. So many here and around the world just take it on faith and turst that their leaders and teacher know what they are talking about and that it must me true. year after year and generation after generation we go about blindly tursting our teachers and leaders that they know these things. Just because one questions things of God does not mean we don't have faith or we don't believe in God. If all things come from God If God is all soverigen and He is all knowing then it is God who is calling on you to question these things. There is a reason why you question these things. You said that if we all try to be decent humans everthing will be ok or we will be ok. Yes we all will be ok in the end ALL. not just a few as most believe. most believe that most will end up in a hell of some sort. the bilbe says Jesus is the savior of all men. not some men. I have many chapter and verses to prove this but most here don't care to hear them again as I have post these scriptures over and over. People just don't want to believe what the scriptures actually say. most just take what their teachers say for fact. when it is not.
OK here is a few.
1John 4:14 and we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the WORLD.
1 tim 2:4 God our Saviour who will have ALL men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth.
john 3:17 for God sent His Son into the world to condem NO)T the world, but that the world through Himk might be saved.
Isa 26:9 for when Thy judgements are in the earth, the inhabitants of the WORLD will learn righteousness.
John 4:42 for we have heard Him ourselves and know that this is indeed the Christ the Saviour of the WORLD.
1Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation that Jesus Christ came into the world to SAVE SINNERS (ALL men are sinners.
John 12:47 and if anyman hears My voice and believe NOT I judge him NOT foe I came not to judge the world but to SAVE the WORLD.
These are just a few scriptures that if read word for words that is to actually read the words that make the scripture you will see that Jesus is the Saviour of the WORLD and that Jesus is the saviour of all men all sinners. we are all sinners,
Question what is the job of Jesus Christ?? Is it not to save? Yes, Jesus"s job is to save. Save who? Sinners. and what is man if not a sinning machine.
Netti-Netti
Well-Known Member
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But infants are not.
Many are called, few are chosen. I find it ironic that those who believe God does all our thinking for us, and puts those thoughts and actions into our heads, are also the very same ones who try to convince others of this concept by attempting to override one's initial thoughts with their own sense of what is right and what is not.
Truth by imposition...
Truth by imposition...
Netti-Netti: Why would infants not be saved. Is it because they are not sinners. Try telling that to the people who believe that we All humans are born with the Sin that Adam laied at our feet. Yes that's right. some people well many many people belive we are born with the stain of sin on our heads. This is why we are baptized ehen we are babies. If I am not mistaken I think the catholic religion teaches this. I am not 100% sure but I believe it is so. Well we know babies do not sin they are innocent souls. and therefore I believe I don't have scripture to back it up this is just my opinion I believe they have a special place in God's heart in which they are saved. They will like all of us be ressurrected in the end and changed from their physical body to spirit. maby they will be special angles of the Lord. If I find some scriptures on this subject I will let you know. Im sure you will be looking foward to that. LOL
Children before the age of ascention or reason, are excluded from being damned. They do not know any better. They are without guile. That is also Catholic in belief. Even Jesus made it clear that "children" had an advantage over adults when it came to heaven...
Two things from a Catholic perspective:
1:
It is not doctrine that we baptise children because they have sinned. We baptise children to cure an inherited condition brought about by sin, not because of any sin imputed to the child by being born. Not to baptise children is the spiritual equivalent of not treating a genetic disorder.
2:
The grace conferred at baptism is not intrinsic to human nature, it transcends it. It is a grace that human nature cannot avail of itself without Divine assistance.
Thomas
1:
It is not doctrine that we baptise children because they have sinned. We baptise children to cure an inherited condition brought about by sin, not because of any sin imputed to the child by being born. Not to baptise children is the spiritual equivalent of not treating a genetic disorder.
2:
The grace conferred at baptism is not intrinsic to human nature, it transcends it. It is a grace that human nature cannot avail of itself without Divine assistance.
Thomas
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
So it is different from the baptism John the Baptist and Jesus's disciples performed.
Hi Seattlegal —
Christian baptism is not purely the washing away of sin — it's an infusion of Divine Grace which actualises the possibility of a personal communion with the Divine that exists potentially within human nature — that's more than simply the forgiveness of sin.
Catholicism holds that human nature is 'deiform', that man was made to know God subjectively and not just objectively, but that the Divine Subjectivity — the sense of interior presence — was withdrawn in the face of the offence of the Fall.
It is this subjective knowing — Divine Immanence — which was lost. Objective knowing remained, as is obvious from the religious aspirations of man throughout history.
Repentance of itself is prior to and a prerequisite of baptism, in the same way that repentance is prior to confession (if one does not repent in one's heart, then the Sacrament is void — it's not a magical ritual). So baptism doesn't enable one to repent, it's a sign of a prior desire for repentance, and a sign of acceptance of repentance.
As the ontology of sin is an offence against God, repentance does not necessitate forgiveness, as you can offend your neighbour, apologise, but he is not required to accept your apology, to forgive and forget. That God always forgives is by virtue of the infinity of His mercy but it's not something we should take for granted.
As an act of repentance it assumes the axiom of faith that the Holy Spirit will come to the assistance of those who seek the life in Christ. So it performs two things: One is the washing away of sin ('ancestral sin' as the Orthodox call it), the forgiveness of the offence and allowing the person to continue with a 'clean sheet', as it were.
Implicit in the Christian community is the idea that in the forgiveness of sin the Father then 'opens communications' in and with the soul at the level of person — Divine Subjectivity — the Sermon of the Vine, for example, indeed the whole thrust of Our Lord's discourse at the Last Supper, and the Mystical Body of which St Paul teaches.
Baptism in the Catholic sense is not just the washing away of the ancestral stain, but by so doing the incorporation into that Mystical Body.
Thomas
I would rather say theology has illuminated aspects of the Rite that were not immediately visible, but are nevertheless implicit.
Christian baptism is not purely the washing away of sin — it's an infusion of Divine Grace which actualises the possibility of a personal communion with the Divine that exists potentially within human nature — that's more than simply the forgiveness of sin.
Catholicism holds that human nature is 'deiform', that man was made to know God subjectively and not just objectively, but that the Divine Subjectivity — the sense of interior presence — was withdrawn in the face of the offence of the Fall.
It is this subjective knowing — Divine Immanence — which was lost. Objective knowing remained, as is obvious from the religious aspirations of man throughout history.
Repentance of itself is prior to and a prerequisite of baptism, in the same way that repentance is prior to confession (if one does not repent in one's heart, then the Sacrament is void — it's not a magical ritual). So baptism doesn't enable one to repent, it's a sign of a prior desire for repentance, and a sign of acceptance of repentance.
As the ontology of sin is an offence against God, repentance does not necessitate forgiveness, as you can offend your neighbour, apologise, but he is not required to accept your apology, to forgive and forget. That God always forgives is by virtue of the infinity of His mercy but it's not something we should take for granted.
As an act of repentance it assumes the axiom of faith that the Holy Spirit will come to the assistance of those who seek the life in Christ. So it performs two things: One is the washing away of sin ('ancestral sin' as the Orthodox call it), the forgiveness of the offence and allowing the person to continue with a 'clean sheet', as it were.
Implicit in the Christian community is the idea that in the forgiveness of sin the Father then 'opens communications' in and with the soul at the level of person — Divine Subjectivity — the Sermon of the Vine, for example, indeed the whole thrust of Our Lord's discourse at the Last Supper, and the Mystical Body of which St Paul teaches.
Baptism in the Catholic sense is not just the washing away of the ancestral stain, but by so doing the incorporation into that Mystical Body.
Thomas
Here we go again. damded. yes damded, but not for all enertity. There is no word in the original greek manuscript meaning forever and ever or all eternity. The word aion (ages) or age) one will be damded forever and ever translates as for an age and an age. Question why would a loving merciful God who says He loves and is fair in all things He does. Would judged and sentence anybody to eternal damnation. What is fair about that. Now God punishes and chastises only for us to learn and for correction. Not just to punish without no meanning. Like the fable hell where you are sentence forever and ever without any chance of redemption. It is so far out of God's charater. Just because billions believe in a certain thing dosen't mean it is true. It only means they are being decieved which is the devil's job. Many are called few are chosen. do you really think God would djust throw away billions of people whom He confesses He loves.
"Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
"but the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone..." (Revelation 21:8)
Now, the Catholic church has this to say about non Christians:
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience -- those too may achieve eternal salvation." Pope Paul VI 1964
Finally: Jesus does speak of aeons (ages), and his term is "aeons eternal". That pretty much means forever...