lunamoth
Episcopalian
There doesn't seem to be an entry point that doesn't require a very large leap of faith.
Chris
As far as I can tell, it does require a leap of faith somewhere along the path.
There doesn't seem to be an entry point that doesn't require a very large leap of faith.
Chris
I am wondering then if the question is mistaken, dear Luna. For if Jesus is Divine and G-d, then his will *is* the will of G-d, there is no "free" about it.
Therein lies a difference, in that all of the rest of us humans are free to will against or other than what G-d wills. If Jesus was G-d, he could not possibly will against or other than what G-d wills, because he is G-d. Jesus' will and our will then become two completely different critters.
Who are we to say what G-d would or would not do? He is G-d, He can implement whatever He wishes, it is His game to play as He sees fit. I trust there is some reason behind it all that I do not now understand but that is right and proper and meant to be.
If Jesus had refused, then he would not have been forced. Just going from the gospels, letters, etc. If he had refused it is likely that he would have undergone further discipline until he finally said 'Yes, I'll do it.'
If he continued to refuse all of his life. I think that it would mean something terrible had gone wrong. Certainly he didn't just pop out of the womb ready to die though.
I'm asking about our role in the crucifixtion. Sure, our hearts are only evil all the time, but it seems there is still a chance we might not have killed him, even if we did not recognize the light.
But our free will is free, and it did happen ... and it happened because we chose to exercise our will, not God's will ... we were 'compelled' by a fallen nature, not an evil nature — if we were by nature evil, we could not be saved.We had to do it by our free will, but if our free will is free then it might not have happened. We were compelled by our evil nature, but not by God.
As far as I can tell, it does require a leap of faith somewhere along the path.
This implicates God in planning the whole 'Garden thing' against us. You are asking whether God would do that? It matches well with what many other scriptures say. It isn't really an issue of leaps of faith, which are unnecessary. Its about whether you agree with what God did.Romans 5:12 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned --
Romans 3:5-6 But if our wickedness serves to show the justice of God, what shall we say? That God is unjust to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) By no means! For then how could God judge the world?
I Corinthians 1:28-29 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.
For one thing, one has to accept a definition of "original sin" based on the story of the Fall that doesn't exactly jibe with the original context of the source material (assuming that Judaism comprehends it's own sacred texts). That's a big leap. And if one is to be making these big leaps, what recommends Jesus oriented salvation over, say, kindly aliens sending their ship to pick us all up? It doesn't seem to be any more or less a leap of faith either way.
Chris
Hi Lunamoth —
Christianity forever comes up against the accusation of myth, of metaphor ... that the things recorded in Scripture didn't actually happen, but that Scripture is a gloss on a series of rather mundane events (if those events happened at all, as some might argue), a valid narrative process by which a spiritual subtext is brought to the fore in signs and symbols, that the realities the Christian believe in are not real in any material sense.
The Christian belief is the other way round. We believe that a spiritual subtext, the Truth of the World, was manifest in a material fashion, in actual people, in actual events, a TheoDrama played out in real life. What happened in the real world, for once, was what actually is, not what man, locked inside himself, assumes it to be.
The philosophers and the gnostics, in all their dualist permutations, see the world as a shadow play of The Real World.
The Christian, in their Hebraic and holistic inheritance, see The Real World not in shadow but in substance.
So there can be no 'what if' — what happened, actually happened, because that's the way it is. If the reality was different, if the actuality of the broken relationship between God and His creature was different, then something else would have happened, and that would be the truth of it ... but such is not the case.
What happened, did happen, and it had to happen, because any other way would be a fantasy, a fabrication, lie ... about as true as apples floating upward from the tree, as fish riding bicycles.
But our free will is free, and it did happen ... and it happened because we chose to exercise our will, not God's will ... we were 'compelled' by a fallen nature, not an evil nature — if we were by nature evil, we could not be saved.
If we are by nature evil, then we are not His creation.
Thomas
Thanks for responding to my post, Lunamoth, even though it wasn't really what you were asking. I misunderstood the question. I would like to address what Chris said, too. Obviously, what happens happens so we're talking about why we do things, and what about the garden (original sin, etc). I don't think that we need leaps of faith or contradicting statements to understand crucifixion in relation to the garden, but there is still the problem we face as human beings with accepting God's actions.
What we know for certain is that God and the angels could have stopped the serpent, but they didn't. It was likely not an experiment but a demonstration of what a mixed creation, Adam and Eve, would naturally do. I suggest Romans 5:12 says that the judgment against Adam passed onto us because we are Adam's descendants, his kind, and of necessity destroyed. In other words God pronounced a death sentence in the Garden of Eden on what human beings *are*, which goes along really well with the Bible instances of human extermination such as the flood.This implicates God in planning the whole 'Garden thing' against us. You are asking whether God would do that? It matches well with what many other scriptures say. It isn't really an issue of leaps of faith, which are unnecessary. Its about whether you agree with what God did.
As to the first line from what I know of Judaism they are as varied in their beliefs (from orthodox to liberal, from mystical metaphor to literal it happened that way) as we Christians are.Let me say clearly: of course Judaism understands its own Scriptures. I find it offensive when Christians imply they don't or that the Jews missed obvious clues that Jesus was the Messiah. Hogwash! We look back with Christ-colored glasses.
"Our" free will in killing Jesus. Can you expound? Sins of the father?? We are pharisees? Romans? What does 'our' free will have to do with killing Jesus?Thank you for your comments 123 but Thomas is right that I am coming at this from the orthodox view. I am asking about our free will in killing Jesus, not his free will to obey the Father.
ah, best time for contemplation and discussion in my opinion.I'm sorry. I had forgotten that it's holy week. We're getting ready for easter, but ours is about the easter bunny, LOL. Maybe I should just let this go as a gesture of good will. Happy easter everyone!
Chris
I tried really hard to make it make sense, but I can't.
JOHN 17;3I didn't learn all of this stuff about the Bible trying to find a way out, Thomas. I was trying to find a way in.
Chris
There was a moment, when I was enjoying a rest stop during a vacation. Quite a scenic place off the California coast actually (Big Sur I believe it was called). Anywho, while enjoying the sights and the sea and the sun and the cliffs, a woman screamed in terror. All of us rushed to to sound, to find a frantic mother peering over the safety fence and down the cliff face. What she was looking at was her child who'd fallen over and lay on a ledge and crag bush. Below him was 500 feet of air and the sea below.I'm afraid it's going to look like I'm mean spirited. I just have these certain problems with the whole salvation/messiah thing. I tried really hard to make it make sense, but I can't.
Chris
Can you stop your anger at some fool that desperately needs a neck ringing? Can you ignore rage you have for the lawyer who is trying to take everything from you because you didn't file LLC for your company, and now are being sued? (hypothetical questions, but very real to many). In otherwords, have you ever harbored malice towards another? If so, then by God, you need Him, and the sacrifice He made for you. He saw you coming for miles, and He took your anger and sin on himself, so you would not have to suffer the "full measure". God the Father, can not look upon sin. So the Son fixed that problem. Now the Father can look upon you, and interact with you and help you, and soothe your brow, through His Lamb/Son/Sacrifice.Given that we have free will, at any time the events leading up to the Cross could have gone another way. Did he have to die on the cross for God's plan to be effective?
If he did have to die on the cross, what does that say about free will and about God?
Is it reasonable to believe that salvation is completely found in the Incarnation itself, that God taking on flesh and sharing in our human suffering was sufficient sacrifice to conquer sin and death?
Is it possible that it says more about the price we demand from God that we crucified Jesus?