Darwin is tricky

maybe end your opinion there?


Or I'll end it where it ends. :)

And if each understood life from the basic concept of evolution and see how ‘bad’ association cause extinction and ‘good’ associations live longer…

Good and bad are relative in evolution to their environmental context. Overlaid on that is humans varying perceptions of desirable outcomes.

then the reality of ‘good and bad’ can be affixed to physical realities versus on literature from centuries before

Just because I mention God doesn't mean I'm basing my experience of God on any particular literature. Nor does it mean that my conceptualization of God is the same as yours. You make assumptions- not profitable for science or for understanding.
 

Exactly! and since what many suggest is true does not fit with what we experience, then ‘that’ rendition or belief is ‘wrong’……”


The problem is in the details of cognition and experience. I experience a different world than you. You can't know my world and I can't know yours. So what beliefs are wrong for you (i.e., inaccurate to your experience) may be right for me.
It is the words used to define are inaccurate. We know English but do you know planck’s constant? Such that we taste air but what does it mean to you and me could be different.

So the only way to combine mankind is with Understanding, equal to mankind.

Defining in math is universal but defining into words has always been the quest of the species. Hence why ‘all words are the creation of mankind’…. A fact!

If you haven't studied human cognition and how it impacts the *how* of thought, I'd recommend doing so, with plenty of cross-cultural data.
Before 20, 7 religions had been observed in depth, constitution and compassion, and the comprehension of consciousness before the age of 18 in a scientific frame.


Please do not pigeon hole me because I do not use the words you like.

Ask questions to associate the meanings and let’s walk them through.
 
Good and bad are relative in evolution to their environmental context.
Perfect!

Now observe all of existence at the same time and think on life;

Life: purposed to continue

Good: supports life

Bad: loss to the common

Overlaid on that is humans varying perceptions of desirable outcomes
desire is not an option in observing the truth; existence only operates ONE way..... "purposed to continue"
 

and as knowledge EVOLVES we learn how to understanding what we experience”

Do we understand our experience?
Often not so we grunt.


Or do we build an illusion that covers it up?
Create a word to define what was experienced


Is coming closer to the Divine a process of learning or forgetting?
so we teach our children that word, so they understand the same experience. we try and forget the old 'grunt'


Or might this depend on the context?
That knowledge evolves.


That all throughout history written definitions use words or even coin new ones to assist in defining what each can and often do experience.

IN time the pinnacle will be……………… UNDERSTANDING
 
the thread was on how why Darwin is tricky and why (because today’s math is incorrect)

isn’t that fairly specific?


No, it isn't. There is nothing detailed about either of those statements. One can say anything is incorrect. What is valuable is new theory grounded in detailed data.

I said planck’s constant is wrong and why.
Isn’t that fairly specific?


You said it was wrong. You did not explain why.

And if I was to suggest mass, energy and time combined into a pie construct removing ‘c’ with ‘t’ as the scale to ‘f’ would you comprehend what that means?

Perhaps if you offered some equations and some background information. If I didn't grasp it, at least a mathematician would. Furthermore, I can make my field's data and theories sound super complicated or I can describe them in ways conducive to discussing with an educated layperson. Maybe it's just a feat of communication.

each of the items suggested are grounded in pure science; it is that you are interacting with someone who literally comprehends how it works and trying to convey into words people can understand.

OK. I'm waiting for the science. References, data, sources, experiments... something.

The problem that is occurring is that old rules are getting stomped on and unless you personally know the math behind how they are derived then you discount what you are reading because it conflict within knowledge you have learned but don’t understand why.

OK, so you are not going to provide any details or anything, but you expect that people should agree with you simply because you say so.

How is that different from religion?

You could post references. I've read a fair bit on string theory and quantum mechanics, which are new paradigms, yet somehow some physicists managed to write books that were intelligible and had actual equations, diagrams, and detailed data. As well as theory that lasted for more than a few paragraphs, so I could grasp the detail.

And then when common sense items are posted you think it is already understood in the sciences but don’t realize; they are not.

I think science is a process, a method of inquiry. There is no end-point, no "already understood." It is a process of constantly questioning, probing in a particular way, maintaining the openness that new information and theory might arise.

i.e….. in a literal sense ‘evolution’ proves entropy is a joke!

Just because there is a process that builds order, is there no process that builds disorder? I don't know, personally; hasn't been a primary question of mine. But it seems to be a false assumption to think that just because a process of order exists, a process of degradation to disorder does not.

The thread was suggesting Darwin’s described process is true to the extent that the environment affect the ‘progression’ or change to life and to watch how a single celled child develops into a person;

OK. That is still just a lot of fluff and kind of incomprehensible. Are you saying that you believe evolution indicates that entropy is impossible? How are the two mutually exclusive?

that process is simply corrected by how energy is observed and that math is what the foundation of the paradigm shift is grounded in.

Guess I'll have to wait for the published article, since this still doesn't tell me much in the way of detail.

Then that ‘community’ of intellects who do know how to do the math are the last folk on this earth who get anything from me. They are not in the business for you (we the people), they are in the business to make a profit.

Hm. Well, I've known some professional mathematicians and physicists and they weren't in corporate. They were academics and in love with their discipline.

Are you saying you refuse to publish in solid, peer-reviewed sources? Why?

If any are good enough to figure it out from the words placed into print, then go get your nobel, if not then maybe try a little at what the words mean and how the ‘truth’ works since it appears you really do not know and why you are calling for someone else to tell you if it is correct.

I'm having a discussion. No idea what else you're implying here. If you mean that I am pushing for peer-reviewed sources, darn right I am. That is a standard of measure in science that works and shows that a person is credible. Now, there are other sources I draw on for my spirituality (obviously, I am not only a scientist), but if you want to talk math and physics (or evolution, or any other area of scientific inquiry), then yeah- I'm going to push for peer-reviewed sources.

Otherwise, why should I think that you are credible and others are not?

Science does not work to maintain the status quo- it is an active seeking of new theory, new data. So there is no reason why, if you have a good idea that is solid mathematically, that it would not be published somewhere.

Basically you are debating with nothing but your pride.

Except I have sources, references, and data when I discuss science.

I'm waiting for yours.

When I discuss mysticism, I allow that it is only my experience, my opinion. And that others are valid as well.

I don't see this open-mindedness from you.
 
Such that we taste air but what does it mean to you and me could be different.


My point exactly.

So the only way to combine mankind is with Understanding, equal to mankind.

First, I am for the unity of all beings, not just humanity. Second, I find understanding is borne of connectedness. First, recognition and then understanding.

Hence why ‘all words are the creation of mankind’…. A fact!

Yes, but the point? Words are the creation of humanity, yes. Or, perhaps more aptly, words are part of being human.

Before 20, 7 religions had been observed in depth, constitution and compassion, and the comprehension of consciousness before the age of 18 in a scientific frame.

Congrats. I don't mean just cross-religious study, I mean analysis of cross-cultural data. You're welcome to provide your references/sources and perhaps then I'd have some clue where you're coming from. Without any detail or references, then you're basically saying "I'm great and you should listen to and follow me." Which may be true, but there is no substance to why I should.

I'd ask- what is it to study a religion in depth to you? What is the constitution of a religion? How do you observe a religion's compassion? Arguably, a religion is a framework- it can't have compassion, only its members can. These are the types of issues that are vague in your statements.

What is it to comprehend consciousness in a scientific frame?

Please do not pigeon hole me because I do not use the words you like.

Likewise.

Ask questions to associate the meanings and let’s walk them through.

Likewise. At least I'm asking questions. You just seem to assume things about me and not question your assumptions at all. Which is interesting, if you are indeed an enlightened being.
 
Perfect!

Now observe all of existence at the same time and think on life;

Life: purposed to continue

Good: supports life

Life/creation is dependent on destruction. I would put forth that what is bad is that which is disharmonious. Reality is, for me, like one Song. That which is bad (a mistake) is that which is out of time or tune.

Bad: loss to the common

What is the common? What is a loss?

desire is not an option in observing the truth

Desire impacts our perception of truth.
 

And for it to be absolutely true, then it MUST work mathematically removing all ‘uncertainties’ and all beliefs, phenomenon, magic and omnipotence as none of them exists but only in the minds of ignorance.


Perhaps define all these things and then I'd know how to respond to this statement which is, as it is, a bunch of fluff.

How does math remove uncertainty?
Because it can predict an outcome…


such that a mind understands its actions… by comprehending the variables

i.e… the fire is hot, so before putting the hand into it; they comprehend the variables.

Such is the same; to say the magician is using magic; we believed until we finally understood the variables.

What does math mean and why is it valuable,
we can use and compute ideas in symbols…………… just like words do to human association


we say the sky is blue; is like saying 1+1=2 in math. We do not need to go out side to know what + and = signs mean… ‘we comprehend by knowledge of’

we use math to communicate and relate values and math is usually universal to all races, cultures. The universal language.

and if it is not context-constrained, why not?
It is! We say x of them plus y of those makes u……. the math is true if x,y,and u understand each definition but the math is still the same


AAnd how is math not a language to define your own beliefs?
It is….. that is what grounds the whole comprehension


How is it protected from the same problems that plague all other human cognition?
Because as the change or basis of comprehension is revealed, and the building begins (as it is now) then never again can the knowledge (truth) ever be ‘undone.’ It will exist in all frames for ever forward…..


that is why I think, it is coming out this way; as then no one can ever stop it; I will have done enough damage, that not a soul, entity, government or religion will be able to stop the questions and understanding from being within the minds of even a few; ever. .

Is that which is provable in mathematics true, or do we think it is true? Can we know the difference?
Absolutely.

How can one remove phenomena? Perhaps you should review a definition of phenomenon?
Like what? Open a thread, and let’s hammer each and everyone. But none on that magic; like ‘well how did he die and walk again?’


That stuff is foolish.

As for magic, you don't understand it the way I do, that is clear. You must be operating off a very limited definition, but as you haven't defined anything yet, I can't respond. Except to say that there are a lot of different views on what magic is, and some are agreeable with quantum mechanics.
Did you do the calculations in quantum mechanics? Then you have no business talking about “You must be operating off a very limited definition”



So far, I see a demonstrated lack of reading in quite a few fields of science
That is exactly what I was thinking……


As it appears your reading is in science articles versus reading through the actual work of the scientist including the math, and conclusion (summaries) the scientist was sharing himself/herself.

So from now on if you want a little equality, then quit talking about my education as being anything less than yours. Otherwise I can hammer you on how stupid you are for not comprehending even something as basic as how casimir and van der waal were observing how gravity actually works upon mass.

I mean how basic is that? Seems in Russia they are already recognizing that gravity is a property of energy and you didn’t…. geeze…
 
Often not so we grunt.


So the answer is, often no.

Create a word to define what was experienced

And by doing so, we create an illusion- a barrier between ourselves and the experience, filtered through our cognition, impacted by culture, by personality, and so forth.

In creating our world of language, we create an illusory world that is not true to the original experience.

so we teach our children that word, so they understand the same experience.

No, they don't. We teach the children the word, and they try to pigeonhole their experiences into a language that doesn't fit. We go round and round in dialogue, unable to really communicate. We fight over the meanings of the words, and meanwhile fail to share the unity of experiences. After about six years of research on words and their meanings in group-based cognitive studies, I came to conclude that one of the big problems in finding unity among human beings are our words and the assumptions behind them.

Culture and language operate on what might be called distributed cognition- there is no "real" culture as a single entity. Instead, you get a bunch of folks with overlapping and non-overlapping knowledge. So there is dissention, disagreement, manipulation, etc. The push pull of the group and individual dynamic, toward group solidarity and continuity, which is frequently at odds with individual self-interest. Neither the group nor the individual are often grounding their decision-making, observations, etc. in actual experience, but rather in their pre-learned assumptions- forcing reality into a illusion that is their world.

That all throughout history written definitions use words or even coin new ones to assist in defining what each can and often do experience.

Ah, but as I said, it is a poor method of communication, really. By defining our worlds by our words, we lose sight of real experience. We live in the matrix. We are chained to false ideas of self, other, and the world. This is why in most traditions, silence and altered states of consciousness are valuable. They help unlock us from our bondage we have ourselves created.

IN time the pinnacle will be……………… UNDERSTANDING

I hope the pinnacle will be love. Understanding is intermediate in my belief system. A short Druid's Prayer/Meditation (OBOD version, there are several that are similar but each is its own translation from the Welsh):

Grant, O God and Goddess, Thy protection;
And in protection, strength;
And in strength, understanding;
And in understanding, knowledge;
And in knowledge, the knowledge of justice;
And in the knowledge of justice, the love of it;
And in that love, the love of all existences;
And in the love of all existences, the love of God and the Goddess, and all goodness.


Understanding and knowledge... the purpose is for love.
 
Congrats. I don't mean just cross-religious study, I mean analysis of cross-cultural data. You're welcome to provide your references/sources and perhaps then I'd have some clue where you're coming from. Without any detail or references, then you're basically saying "I'm great and you should listen to and follow me." Which may be true, but there is no substance to why I should.
You pointed a direct finger at me and said I was not well read that I was ignorant..... that was the only reason the point was made about the 7 religions;

you keep poking at what you 'think' i don;t know..... rather than look at the merit and question your damn self

What is it to comprehend consciousness in a scientific frame?

understanding t<0 and how that is perfectly true; then comprehending how life upon mass actually is light, then comprehending that light entangles mass

or i could answer it how you answer me

.... maybe out of your league since your didn't read the physiology of the neurological systems combined with comprehending, not just reading, the chemical composition of the molecular structures of the neuron and glial cells of the brain, combined with the mathematics of molecular interactions of mass and energy.
 

And by doing so, we create an illusion- a barrier between ourselves and the experience,
Not talking about a religion


reality can be backed up in all three contents; experience, philosophy and science

the religions what
filtered through our cognition, impacted by culture, by personality, and so forth.
basically those who prefer faith over reality

In creating our world of language, we create an illusory world that is not true to the original experience.
again… you just defined what religions did to this earth
 
No, they don't. We teach the children the word, and they try to pigeonhole their experiences into a language that doesn't fit.
They only know what the previous generations left in words.


that rebellion is because the faiths teach us about magic and omnipotence and the children are realizing it's all a joke and the ignorance of the parents and teachers keep trying to shove the junk down everyones throat.

Life did not start with adam and eve

women did not come from man

no sin will ever be undone

we are equal and we can Understand existence without anyone ever telling us we can't again......

the religions will be over with understanding and if you don't like it and are not interested in developing the children with integrity; then take a hike as them who wish to retain the ignorance of faith rather than think about the children, their future, honesty and the absolute compassion for them over our own beliefs.......... then take a hike.

Don't ever tell me them children are anything but the product of what 'we the people' have prepared for them..... it is all of our faults

and that is why this prick will never stop 'doing' for the good of their tomorrow.......

look in your old book, they talk about a guy who 'hath understanding'.....

well guess who?
 
Because it can predict an outcome…


As can other methods of inquiry.

Such is the same; to say the magician is using magic; we believed until we finally understood the variables.

Magic isn't about a supernatural mumbo-jumbo. At least not the magic I've seen. it's the interaction of intent/will on energy while by-passing physical action. Well, you'll get a dozen definitions of magic for every ten people you talk to. But I'm just saying that you are equating magic with a lack of understanding process, without seeming to have interviewed or observed any modern magicians or psions.

we say the sky is blue; is like saying 1+1=2 in math. We do not need to go out side to know what + and = signs mean… ‘we comprehend by knowledge of’

Ah, but once we experience reality, we find that the sky isn't blue- we only perceive it to be such. We find that 1+1=2 only works conceptually. In reality, there are incredibly rarely two identical objects, so it is a leap of perception to call each of them one and together, two.

The universal language.

I agree, but it doesn't make math impervious to the faults of human perception and cognition, or to the variations between cultures.

Because as the change or basis of comprehension is revealed, and the building begins (as it is now) then never again can the knowledge (truth) ever be ‘undone.’ It will exist in all frames for ever forward…..

I don't think truth is ever undone. Truth exists. Whether or not we can know it entirely is another matter, but we can begin to engage it through experience, and these experiences could be with math or with something else entirely.

that is why I think, it is coming out this way; as then no one can ever stop it; I will have done enough damage, that not a soul, entity, government or religion will be able to stop the questions and understanding from being within the minds of even a few; ever. .

I don't understand what you're saying here. Do you mean that you plan to publish something? Or create a film or something?

I don't think anyone ever has been able to stop the questions, by the way. That's why we're asking them. :)

But none on that magic; like ‘well how did he die and walk again?’
That stuff is foolish.


Not sure how the example is magic, unless you are using the pop culture conceptualization of magic. And what is foolish to you may be the experience of others. Perhaps be open to the idea that more people than you have valid experiences and ideas.

Did you do the calculations in quantum mechanics? Then you have no business talking about “You must be operating off a very limited definition”

I meant you must be operating a limited definition of magic.

As it appears your reading is in science articles versus reading through the actual work of the scientist including the math, and conclusion (summaries) the scientist was sharing himself/herself.

First, science encompasses many disciplines. I've been up front that I'm not a mathematician or physicist. I read in these areas when I can out of personal interest. I can say that you don't seem to have read very widely in cognitive studies, anthropology (which would have afforded a more nuanced understanding of magic), etc.

I've invited you many times to post references, sources, equations, details of any kind that you've written so that I can read your stuff and mull it over. I'm happy to do the same. It's kind of in your court.

So from now on if you want a little equality, then quit talking about my education as being anything less than yours.

I never said that. I said that in some areas of science, it seems you lack the nuanced understanding that comes with extensive reading. I'm more than happy to own up that I do as well, which is why I don't tell people I have The Answer. If someone does tell me that I should follow their way of thinking, I think it is entirely reasonable to question them about their sources and to probe any area that seems insufficiently explored. If you wish to make a difference, you would think this would be welcomed.

I for one like to find out about areas I don't know so I can explore further. That's one of the reasons I love to discuss with mathematicians and physicists.

Otherwise I can hammer you on how stupid you are for not comprehending even something as basic as how casimir and van der waal were observing how gravity actually works upon mass.
I mean how basic is that? Seems in Russia they are already recognizing that gravity is a property of energy and you didn’t…. geeze…

You can do whatever you like. I don't get upset about people I don't know hammering me on anything. :) I don't recall saying anything about gravity and energy. I think everything comes down to energy, basically.

And I never said you were stupid. That was another of your faulty assumptions. I do not think you are stupid. I do think you assume you are right and everyone else's view is invalid. That is simply how you come across, but it certainly could be due to the barriers of language and the internet.

But look over my posts. I never said you were stupid. I said I questioned the credibility of your claims in the absence of anything published or at least referenced and detailed. What reasonable scientist wouldn't?
 
Understanding and knowledge... the purpose is for love.


True Love is that choice to share that Understanding so never again can the religions ever corrupt the minds of the children ever again...


now I see your pursuit.... you were not articulating with me for the good of others

you have a predetermination to 'damage' anything that destroys the complacent ignorance to faith.

be certain, keep all copies of any of this material.....

you faith nuts will be extinct!

it will be the faith nuts that reap the greatest reduction (first to last) of all upon the judgement by your own children

you bet I'm here....
 
You pointed a direct finger at me and said I was not well read that I was ignorant..... that was the only reason the point was made about the 7 religions;

I did not say you were ignorant or well read. I said that it seemed that you could use additional reading in cross-cultural study and human cognition. You implied the other negative things. Look at my actual words.

you keep poking at what you 'think' i don;t know..... rather than look at the merit and question your damn self

:: Mod hat on :: Don't swear at me just because I debate with you. I will edit those posts if you continue to do so. :: Mod hat off ::

Swearing at those who debate you is unbecoming for a scientist of any sort. It only causes further questioning of credibility.

I don't poke at what I think you don't know. I poke at what seems incomplete in any theory, what lacks detail, what lacks references, etc. It is what science does. Makes us all better and stronger at what we think.

And I question myself all the time. That's what science does. And mysticism.

As for the remainder-

Despite your vague and contentious way of presenting the material (i.e., the swearing and other unbecoming behavior), I find your ideas interesting. I would like references for further reading. Obviously, since I am not a mathematician or a physicist, it would take me some time to read some books/articles that inform your ideas and become familiar with the concepts and review them with some mathematicians and physicists I know.
 
If someone does tell me that I should follow their way of thinking
Never asked anyone once.

The thread was about Darwin and addressed a few 'why's'

have you once asked about them?
 
again… you just defined what religions did to this earth

I explained what culture (which touches us all) does to humanity's experience.

Religion is only one facet of culture. The non-religious are just as constrained by their culture as everyone else. Ethnocentrism is the norm, until it is carefully examined in oneself and put aside. Even then, it creeps in and requires vigilance. Religion is only one kind of potential barrier. There are more.
 
I for one like to find out about areas I don't know so I can explore further. That's one of the reasons I love to discuss with mathematicians and physicists.
me tinks that is a fib

as all you did here was use words to disguise your intent


have you don't any homework to see how the concept of entropy and planck are foolish

did you see the embryo's and count the tail bones? Did not take a moment and realize you were observing evolution in a hurry?

so basically you are not trying to do something of quality or trying to understand knowledge and how it will all combine.

you've been looking for flaws trying to make yourself feel good and make sense that you are doing it as anyone would........
 
I explained what culture (which touches us all) does to humanity's experience.

Religion is only one facet of culture.
As you define?

but fail to realize religions created the majority of the cultures ever to exists and it is only within the last 4-500 years that a separation of church and state even exhisted.

and that 99% of the religious texts in use were authored before 'culture and religion' separated.........

you make little sense; most every household and family on earth will teach their children the definitions of God before the kid even leaves the house....

I am sorry but your observances are of nothing to do with the thread....

Darwin's process of evolution is about as true as needing oxygen to breath...

the religions are what caused much of divisions of truth and beliefs.

and to first comprehend that EVERY WORD ON EARTH IS/WAS CREATED by MANKIND........ then be certain them books of faith are a little short of the truth...
 
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