The Trouble with Transcendental Unity of Religions

[Thomas]

I should have seen this coming...

Yes, it knocks your argument into a cocked hat ... both the Old Testament and the New evidence the existence of 'gatekeepers' — Jesus Christ being the Gate of All.

So what makes you think this blatantly self-vouching text will impress me any more than it did the first 100 times someone quoted it at me?

I don't know ... what makes you think your blatantly self-vouching pronouncements impress me? All I did was point out that in the Abrahamic traditions (and in the gnostic traditions even moreso) present the ideas of gatekeepers.

It is my belief that the Gospel of Thomas was omitted from the NT canon mostly on the basis of this passage, for obvious reasons. But given my background, is there some reason I should NOT take it as the more authentic and authoritative text?

Well:
a) because your reasoning is ill-founded, it's an assumption without a shred of evidence to support it — so a belief founded on prejudice.
b) if you're going to dispute the authenticity and authority of the Canon, then there is no logical way you can claim authenticity or authority for GoT, as it lacks any of the requirements of authenticity or authority that the Canon has.

If the canon is not authoritative and authentic, then the GoT is less so, by every common-sense standard.

Thomas

 

[Dream]

Please proceed to punch as many holes as possible in this theory....it is probably related to the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Playing devil's advocate, so this does not necessarily represent my point of view (unless I win).

Perhaps it might be blind attachment to what we perceive as good (obsessive-compulsive, addictive behavior in extreme), and blind aversion to what we percieve as bad (blind emnity and hatred in extreme.) Both obsessive-compulsive, addictive behavior and emnity/hatred could be described as "fiery" in their action and the way they propagate.

Are you suggesting the trees are next to each other? The Cherubim are guarding the way to the tree of life, not necessarily the way to the tree of knowledge of good & evil.

You are associating blindness with death, but in the garden the man & woman were naked and did not know it. Upon eating the KOG&E fruit their eyes were opened. They were driven from the garden, so that in the absence of the tree of life they would die. In blindness they lived, and with sight they died.

 

[seattlegal]

Playing devil's advocate, so this does not necessarily represent my point of view (unless I win).
Are you suggesting the trees are next to each other? The Cherubim are guarding the way to the tree of life, not necessarily the way to the tree of knowledge of good & evil.

Possibly. The reason why I suggested that the action of the Cherubim could be related to the partaking of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is because that is the reason why the path to the tree of life needed to be guarded. Simple and elegant.

You are associating blindness with death, but in the garden the man & woman were naked and did not know it. Upon eating the KOG&E fruit their eyes were opened. They were driven from the garden, so that in the absence of the tree of life they would die. In blindness they lived, and with sight they died.

No I'm associating blind attachment and blind aversion with death. (If you use blind attachment/aversion to navigate through life, it will only take one time being at the wrong place and the wrong time with a faulty sense of aversion/attraction to give yourself a Darwin Award...How long can you beat the odds?)

 

[Thomas]

Hi Dream —

If you want to know about angels in the Christian Tradition, you should read "The Celestial Hierarchy" by Dionysius the Areopagite.

According to Dionysius, "there are nine Orders of Angels, figures of the nine Archetypes in God; and each one obtains a name corresponding to the property in God which it exhibits."

The Cherubim are those 'who may be called loving Wisdoms, as those first may be called wise Loves. For there is in each both love and wisdom.'

But in the first, inasmuch as they are nearer to God, the very Sun of Truth, this exists in a far greater degree. ... Such then is the difference between these Orders: namely, that in the latter is knowledge proceeding from love; in the former is love proceeding from knowledge.'

In the Christian idea, angels are Celestial Intelligences and, accordingly from Scripture, function as messengers and emissaries of God.
'Among all the Angels, from the higher ones even down to us, there is a mutual and alternate announcement proceeding from above; as they receive and deliver in turn what they announce in a marvellous and most beautiful order. Since among the Angels themselves there is an order of all ordinances after the pattern of the Order of all.... But every announcement is a receiving, informing, purifying, enlightening, perfecting and representing of the Divine Truth; the Light of which as it goes forth in order and shines upon all, so distinguishes and marks each object in a wonderful manner, that everything shines forth in it in its own proper quality, and stands out and appears in its own nature, with its individual powers and office, exhibiting in its own degree some perfection in God, in whom all perfection is in its highest; nay, rather, who is Himself the proper Perfection of every one, perfecting all things, in whom there is nothing perfect but Himself.'

+++

In Christianity, the poisoned bite is called 'Death's sting', and the cherub may be a representation of death.

Where is that?

Since Christianity has been brought into the discussion: I keep in mind that Jesus always said "He that has ears let him hear," which was the real rub between him and the priesthood of his day. His correction to them was that they should be reading the text for themselves instead of viewing it through thick lenses of previous interpreters. He was saying the opposite of "Listen to me, or listen to a certain appointed individual." In effect a man's gatekeepers are his ears, according to Jesus.

Not a Christian interpretation I have ever heard — nowhere and never has any Christian taught that you should ignore the Word of God — and what Christ states over and again is man's inability to comprehend what he reads and what he hears.

Everybody thinking they know best is the source of the problem, not its solution. It's also nigh-on a fact that as soon as we go our own way, we're most probably making a mistake ... "hey ma, look! everyone's marching out of step but me!"

From that standpoint, his statement of 'Way, truth, and the life' gives Christians a radical reason to consider viewpoints from other religions, since it is not the speaker but the hearer who is the gatekeeper.

The famous Holman Hunt picture sums up the idea of the self as gatekeeper — in "The Light of the World" Christ stands outside the gate, but there is no handle. In that sense then, it is we who have to open the door to Him — but we are not really 'inside' (as much as we like to think we are) but lost, or rather in darkness ... and too stupid to open the door ... and to assume that we determine what is true or false, what is right or wrong, is a fallacy, and is the very reason why we are in the predicament we find ourselves in, in the first place.

Thomas

 

[Dream]

Possibly. The reason why I suggested that the action of the Cherubim could be related to the partaking of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is because that is the reason why the path to the tree of life needed to be guarded. Simple and elegant.

I almost drew a flowchart, but it is simple yeah.

No I'm associating blind attachment and blind aversion with death. (If you use blind attachment/aversion to navigate through life, it will only take one time being at the wrong place and the wrong time with a faulty sense of aversion/attraction to give yourself a Darwin Award...How long can you beat the odds?)

Lets do some charades. What's my motivation?

Ok, I'm Adam & Eve outside of the garden. Do I dearly desire to go back into the garden and eat of the life-giving fruit? If so, the fiery critter is in my way. How can this creature represent my passions? In other words "Do I have a passion to enter the garden, or is my motivation something besides passion?" How do I tell the difference, SG?

In the same story there is enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent. Her seed will crush the head of the serpent with his heel, someday. This crushing has been loudly heralded as a remedy to my (Adam & Eve's) outcast condition. Does the serpent also represent my passions? Is it my passion that its head be crushed? If not, then who's passion is it?

 

[Dream]

If you want to know about angels in the Christian Tradition, you should read "The Celestial Hierarchy" by Dionysius the Areopagite.

Thanks Thomas, I'm reading your post. I posted before I saw yours.

 

[Netti-Netti]

We don't need no stinkin' gurus!

Chris

I suspect one could learn a little something even from the smellier variety.

 

[seattlegal]

I almost drew a flowchart, but it is simple yeah.

Lets do some charades. What's my motivation?

Ok, I'm Adam & Eve outside of the garden. Do I dearly desire to go back into the garden and eat of the life-giving fruit? If so, the fiery critter is in my way. How can this creature represent my passions? In other words "Do I have a passion to enter the garden, or is my motivation something besides passion?" How do I tell the difference, SG?

Is this based upon the assumption that you would recognize the tree of life if you saw it?

In the same story there is enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent. Her seed will crush the head of the serpent with his heel, someday. This crushing has been loudly heralded as a remedy to my (Adam & Eve's) outcast condition. Does the serpent also represent my passions? Is it my passion that its head be crushed? If not, then who's passion is it?

Good question. Certainly worth exploring, imo.

 

[Raksha]

whilst it is true that the development of the supramundane abilities are part and parcel of progression within the Path the idea being communicated is that to use the siddhis as the goal or measurement of ones progress is going to create obstacles rather than remove them.

Namaste Vajrahara,

First of all, you are assuming that I am attempting to make "progress" on "the Path," and that I am using the siddhis such as telepathy as a measurement or yardstick of that progress. I have to call into question both assumptions. I could very well be wandering off "the Path" because I want to investigate something interesting by the side of the road. I'm easily distracted by nature so I do that frequently.

I am not at all sure that my "goal" (if I even have one) is the same as that of Buddhism or Hinduism--that is, the total overcoming of maya and the renunciation of ALL attachments, even the "attachment" to my own life. In fact, I'm pretty sure that isn't my goal at all. What interests me or motivates me is the overcoming of limitations that prevent me from seeing life for what it really is and from living as effectively as I would like to.

I don't see the overcoming of ALL attachments as desirable, and YES, that definitely puts me at odds with the Gnostics too--in some areas anyway. It's the reason for my growing interest in Paganism and shamanistic traditions in general--the fact that they are non-authoritarian, non-hierarchical, and most of important of all they place their primary focus on the direct experience of nonordinary reality. Not on what somebody else has to say about the experience, or whether or not a given person should even be having it in the first place!

I would never consider the development of allegedly "supernatural" abilities such as telepathy as a "yardstick" or measurement of spiritual progress. For one thing, I see it as more natural than supernatural, and there also seems to be a strong hereditary component, as with other aptitudes.

But most important of all--there is no necessary correlation. Aleister Crowley for example was one of the most naturally gifted telepaths of his generation, but he wasn't even a GOOD person, let alone a spiritual person! It all caught up with him in the end.

his view, however, is not particularly western in this regard as this is the same teaching which the Buddha Shakyamuni gave regarding the way in which Buddhists should regard these phenomena. i have a feeling that Dr. Smith was paraphrasing this teaching.

I don't see the East as one bit less authoritarian or hierarchical than the West. In many ways it's even more so. There is no question that India and China and Japan developed what might be called "the technology of the sacred" to a degree that leaves Western cultures in the dust. In that area there is simply no contest.

That said, though...how did they even tolerate the caste system, let alone defend and uphold it for centuries? The blatant social injustice and indifference to human life that exists in those countries causes me to seriously question their claim to spiritual superiority.

--Linda

 

[Dream]

The reason why I suggested that the action of the Cherubim could be related to the partaking of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is because that is the reason why the path to the tree of life needed to be guarded.

Is this based upon the assumption that you would recognize the tree of life if you saw it?

In the story I already know the way back to the tree and have tasted it before, so its not a matter of identifying the trees. My problem is the deadly cherub which G!d placed between me and the tree. I'd eat from the tree if the cherub weren't in my way, because I don't obey when G!d says 'Do not eat'. Ironic that obedience requires that I die, and disobedience is instant death. My problem is also the serpent, which G!d allowed in the garden. The serpent is obviously the variable that matters, which I realized soon after I'd eaten fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. I will be permitted to live in the garden once the serpent dies, even though I now know good & evil. Puzzling. Should complain about my situation?

In the question of transcendental unity of religions, a related question is "is it the knowledge of good and evil or the serpent that matters, and how is it killed?"

 

[Dream]

Hi Dream —

If you want to know about angels in the Christian Tradition, you should read "The Celestial Hierarchy" by Dionysius the Areopagite.

Ok. I had never seen that before.

Where is that?

That was an extrapolation from Isaiah and I Corinthians

Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death for ever, and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth; for the LORD has spoken.

I Corinthians 15:54-55 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting? The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Not a Christian interpretation I have ever heard — nowhere and never has any Christian taught that you should ignore the Word of God — and what Christ states over and again is man's inability to comprehend what he reads and what he hears.

I think you have read much more and lived more than I have, and I really I wouldn't want anyone to ignore the Word of God. Jesus spoke in parables on purpose, knowing full well that people wouldn't understand. He would rather not have, but was under orders to do so. The reason he gave for this was "lest they should turn and repent and be forgiven." When speaking he would say 'He that has ears, let him hear.' He would explain things clearly to his own disciples, however in his prayers it is clear that even they were not of his own choosing but the Father's. Peter is a huge representation of this, because Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven."

Everybody thinking they know best is the source of the problem, not its solution. It's also nigh-on a fact that as soon as we go our own way, we're most probably making a mistake ... "hey ma, look! everyone's marching out of step but me!"

I think that is human wisdom talking. I think think that individual revelation is the Stone the Builders Rejected, which is been made the Capstone. The builders are of course the builders of the House of God. The builders reject it, because they cannot conceive of it working. It is not their decision however, and every stone in the spiritual temple must be custom cut at the quarry, just as the physical stones were for Solomon's temple. Not a tool was heard during its assembly. (I Kings 6:7) Another example is the stone in Nebuchadnezzars vision that was cut out of a mountain without human hands and destroyed all the human built kingdoms.(Daniel 2:44)

19 Open to me the gates of righteousness, that I may enter through them and give thanks to the LORD.
20 This is the gate of the LORD; the righteous shall enter through it.
21 I thank thee that thou hast answered me and hast become my salvation.
22 The stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner.
23 This is the LORD's doing; it is marvelous in our eyes.

 

[Netti-Netti]

I don't see the East as one bit less authoritarian or hierarchical than the West. In many ways it's even more so. There is no question that India and China and Japan developed what might be called "the technology of the sacred" to a degree that leaves Western cultures in the dust. In that area there is simply no contest.

Highly debatable.

That said, though...how did they even tolerate the caste system, let alone defend and uphold it for centuries? The blatant social injustice and indifference to human life that exists in those countries causes me to seriously question their claim to spiritual superiority.

Hi Linda, who claimed what?

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Raksha,

thank you for the post.

Namaste Vajrahara,

First of all, you are assuming that I am attempting to make "progress" on "the Path," and that I am using the siddhis such as telepathy as a measurement or yardstick of that progress. I have to call into question both assumptions.

actually i'm not assuming that regarding you but making the statement in a more generalized way to indicate beings engaged in a spiritual practice that tends to deepen as they continue said practice. sorry for the confusion.

I would never consider the development of allegedly "supernatural" abilities such as telepathy as a "yardstick" or measurement of spiritual progress. For one thing, I see it as more natural than supernatural, and there also seems to be a strong hereditary component, as with other aptitudes.

i would tend to agree, the term supramundane isn't mean to be indicative of the western term supernatural. one aspect of the Buddhist teachings is that all phenomena and noumena are natural even if outside the scope of ordinary experience.

That said, though...how did they even tolerate the caste system, let alone defend and uphold it for centuries? The blatant social injustice and indifference to human life that exists in those countries causes me to seriously question their claim to spiritual superiority.

--Linda

only one culture had the caste system as i infer your meaning here, so it would be a bit unfair of other cultures to view them in the same vein. that said, one of the most culturally radical aspects of the Buddha Dharma is the breaking of caste and gender barriers which were present in society at the time.

metta,

~v

 

[seattlegal]

In the story I already know the way back to the tree and have tasted it before, so its not a matter of identifying the trees. My problem is the deadly cherub which G!d placed between me and the tree. I'd eat from the tree if the cherub weren't in my way, because I don't obey when G!d says 'Do not eat'. Ironic that obedience requires that I die, and disobedience is instant death. My problem is also the serpent, which G!d allowed in the garden. The serpent is obviously the variable that matters, which I realized soon after I'd eaten fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. I will be permitted to live in the garden once the serpent dies, even though I now know good & evil. Puzzling. Should complain about my situation?
In the question of transcendental unity of religions, a related question is "is it the knowledge of good and evil or the serpent that matters, and how is it killed?"

Perhaps this passage from James might be helpful:

James 1:12-16
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.​

 

[Bandit]

In the story I already know the way back to the tree and have tasted it before, so its not a matter of identifying the trees. My problem is the deadly cherub which G!d placed between me and the tree. I'd eat from the tree if the cherub weren't in my way, because I don't obey when G!d says 'Do not eat'. Ironic that obedience requires that I die, and disobedience is instant death. My problem is also the serpent, which G!d allowed in the garden. The serpent is obviously the variable that matters, which I realized soon after I'd eaten fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. I will be permitted to live in the garden once the serpent dies, even though I now know good & evil. Puzzling. Should complain about my situation?

In the question of transcendental unity of religions, a related question is "is it the knowledge of good and evil or the serpent that matters, and how is it killed?"

Puzzling indeed.

I have my own spin.

a parent gives their kids all these candy bars & puts poison in one bar. then says you can eat all this candy but do not eat the one that has poison because you will die.

so they eat it & dont actually die, they just get extremely sick & punished for the rest of their lives & banished from any more candy...then the fire angels stay there & divide the children from the parent. it is really kind of stupid.

or as others would put it, here are your divorce papers. You knew the coffee I would give you would be cold & you knew you were going to divorce me one day. what kind of lie marriage is this?

what kind of loving parent is going to allow their kids to be tempted by poison that the parent themselves put there unless they intended for them to die. & how many parents let strangers into their childs play area unless they intend for the stranger to tell them a lie that at least one of them will believe.

I know exactly what you are saying (& nothing anyone ever says adds up). Very few will be able to follow where you are going except for maybe some old time orthodox jews who do a nice job with it.

& guess what? you are never getting back into that room that has all that delicious candy/fruit inside...because you disobeyed & got stung by my very own horrid parental trickery- & now you must die a nice slow death as the stranger laughs.

next you hear all these excuses about this parent/god being so loving & kind & is not so loving & kind after all. It is more like Alfred Hitchcock & that which fulfills evil by doing exactly what was intended is good.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

In the story I already know the way back to the tree and have tasted it before, so its not a matter of identifying the trees. My problem is the deadly cherub which G!d placed between me and the tree. I'd eat from the tree if the cherub weren't in my way, because I don't obey when G!d says 'Do not eat'. Ironic that obedience requires that I die, and disobedience is instant death. My problem is also the serpent, which G!d allowed in the garden. The serpent is obviously the variable that matters, which I realized soon after I'd eaten fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. I will be permitted to live in the garden once the serpent dies, even though I now know good & evil. Puzzling. Should complain about my situation?

In the question of transcendental unity of religions, a related question is "is it the knowledge of good and evil or the serpent that matters, and how is it killed?"

The cherubim guards in all directions against those who would reach forth and take of the tree. It is the reaching, grasping, holding, and forcible taking of the fruit that is prohibited.

Chris

 

[seattlegal]

The cherubim guards in all directions against those who would reach forth and take of the tree. It is the reaching, grasping, holding, and forcible taking of the fruit that is prohibited.

Chris

Those pesky desires, again.
**thumbs up**

 

[Dream]

I know exactly what you are saying (& nothing anyone ever says adds up).

You can't accept the fact that you are going to die? Life is worth living, so there's no point in complaining. Appreciate life, and respect your creator. We are still on topic in this thread.

 

[Bandit]

You can't accept the fact that you are going to die? Life is worth living, so there's no point in complaining. Appreciate life, and respect your creator. We are still on topic in this thread.

When the creator complains...does that mean it is pointless? I would say there are valid complaints when addressed will help make things better. Life is not always worth living for everyone just as there are certain things in life that are appreciated & other things in life are not.

What I accept or don't accept, what I appreciate or do not appreciate, what I respect or don't respect, if I complain or don't complain, death or no death-had nothing to do with what I wrote concerning the metaphor.

Since you asked, I look forward to the end of the road with gladness.

discover and take possession of at the end of the road

 

[Dream]

Life is not always worth living for everyone just as there are certain things in life that are appreciated & other things in life are not.

There are always two ways of looking at it, and the two viewpoints are exclusive. When you think you'd rather die, odds are its just your perspective or frame of reference -- even if you already know you're going to die very soon. Take an example from nature: Both humans and other creatures have a death instinct that affects them when they sense they will die soon, an instinct that exists to comfort the creature or in some way make its last moments as worthwhile as possible. Trees that are dying go into overproduction and will bloom out of season. Dogs go off to a quiet place by themselves. All creatures prepare themselves for death when it becomes inevitable -- not before. Except for you.