B
Bandit
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people who do not know others, yet they know more about everyone else than everyone else knows about themselves.
The Trouble with Transcendental Unity of Religions
- Thread starter Thomas
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people who do not know others, yet they know more about everyone else than everyone else knows about themselves.
B
Bandit
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did the fire sword also keep them from having the antidote for their condition? wasn't it inside the mystical garden?
Netti-Netti
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Yes, so it would seem:
And the L-RD God said, '...(Man) must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.' ~ Genesis 3:22-24
I would say G-d was letting us know that only He can confer Eternal life and that it cannot be arbitrarily accessed by human action.
After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life. ~ Genesis 3:24
It seems the Cherubim with flaming swords were assigned to guard duty by G-d, who evidently wanted to assert His judgment, authority, and jurisdiction. The Tree of Life is being guarded by the Cherubim, whose protection of the Tree indicates that it has a special sanctity and that you are not to proceed without permission. The flaming swords also symbolize G-d's might, making it clear that His judgment and authority are enforceable.
The L-rd did not officially say that Adam and Eve would never have access to Eternal Life. He does not wish to deny mankind Eternal Life. What He does intend to show, it seems, is how mankind can gain access.
The idea of G-d's prerogative might bear some clarification. The Cherubim were armed guards who had been assigned the task of restricting access to the Tree of Life. This restriction alerts us to the need to look to G-d for permission to gain access to the Tree.
It seems G-d wanted to make a point of the fact that He was in control of Adam and Eve being separated from the Tree of Life. That is, he is in control of the ultimate spiritual resource. I see this as G-d's way of initiating the plan for salvation and of reminding us of His ongoing concern and involvement with Creation, which we see again with various other covenants He enters into later.
It seems to me that the upshot of the Adam and Eve story is the importance of obedience. Banishment from Paradise is a provision that facilitates fairly simple contingency learning: G-d gives us freedom to stray. But when I stray, I can expect to experience consequences. Moral of the story: stay on G-d's good side.
At the same time, the banishment from Paradise includes a hopeful provision - i.e., a chance to learn how to resist temptation based on increased insight about the nature of good and evil. The loss of innocence allows for a new level of obedience that is more conscious, more reasoned, and also more reverential. As Thomas said, when obedience leads to real life, it's no longer about avoiding punishment.
China Cat Sunflower
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It depends on how we want to construct the analogy. As far as I'm concerned, the reason they couldn't go back is that it would be like trying to climb into the womb again.
Chris
Netti-Netti
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The Tree of Life was in the middle of the garden - along with the Tree of Good and Evil.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Well heck, since the title of this thread is "The Trouble with Transcendental Unity of Religions," it might be appropriate to investigate a curious parallel to the stepping on the head of the snake from a different religion, to investigate the trouble it might stir up:
From The Sutta-Nipâta: IV. ATTHAKAVAGGA.
1. KÂMASUTTA.
1. If he who desires sensual pleasures is successful, he certainly becomes glad-minded, having obtained what a mortal wishes for. (766)
2. But if those sensual pleasures fail the person who desires and wishes (for them), he will suffer, pierced by the arrow (of pain). (767)
3. He who avoids sensual pleasures as (he would avoid treading upon) the head of a snake with his foot, such a one, being thoughtful (sato), will conquer this desire. (768)
4. He who covets extensively (such) pleasures (as these), fields, goods, or gold, cows and horses, servants, women, relations, (769)
5. Sins will overpower him, dangers will crush him, and pain will follow him as water (pours into) a broken ship. (770)
6. Therefore let one always be thoughtful, and avoid pleasures; having abandoned them, let him cross the stream, after baling out the ship, and go to the other shore. (771)
2. But if those sensual pleasures fail the person who desires and wishes (for them), he will suffer, pierced by the arrow (of pain). (767)
3. He who avoids sensual pleasures as (he would avoid treading upon) the head of a snake with his foot, such a one, being thoughtful (sato), will conquer this desire. (768)
4. He who covets extensively (such) pleasures (as these), fields, goods, or gold, cows and horses, servants, women, relations, (769)
5. Sins will overpower him, dangers will crush him, and pain will follow him as water (pours into) a broken ship. (770)
6. Therefore let one always be thoughtful, and avoid pleasures; having abandoned them, let him cross the stream, after baling out the ship, and go to the other shore. (771)
Dream
Well-Known Member
It is interesting that the snake and the foot appear in a conversation about religion. Isn't this a different picture though? In this the person is advised to avoid all pleasure as if it were a snakes head and they were barefooted.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Hey, I did say that I was looking to see what kind of trouble I could stir up.
Netti-Netti
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The theme of good versus evil is sometimes represented as power struggle. Consider the story about Krisha taking on the Kaliya snake. In the course of being tamed by Lord Krishna, Kaliya would fight back and raise its head in resistance:
SB 10.16.28: My dear King, Kāliya had 101 prominent heads, and when one of them would not bow down, Lord Kṛṣṇa, who inflicts punishment on cruel wrong-doers, would smash that stubborn head by striking it with His feet.
Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 10 Chapter 16 Srimad Bhagavatam is considered the Hindu Bible. Its dating is unclear. The Bhagavata Purana (aka Śrīmad Bhāgavatam) has been attributed to Vyasa, who was compiling scriptures around 3100 BCE
E
Eclectic Mystic
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You guys all know that Professor Huston Smith wrote the introduction to the book of the same title as is in this thread, right?
Dream,
I've been away from this topic for awhile because this was the last thing anyone said that resonated with me. Then the discussion veered off into the symbolism of the Adam and Eve story, and I guess I've been through that one too many times on other boards to have any interest in discussing it right now.
I guess what interests me the most at the moment is the idea of the individual revelation being the chief cornerstone of the Temple. Sometimes, everyone really *IS* out of step but the one lone contrarian oddball!
Every religion or spiritual movement develops its own form of "orthodoxy" or conventional wisdom after its been around for a while, alternative or New Age groups as well as mainstream religions. The problem comes from people repeating what they have been told by others instead of trusting their own experience and intuition. So it isn't only a matter of "hearing a different drummer" but of actually hearing the drummer while everyone else is just pretending they do.
So for the past week I've been exploring the websites of some of my favorite oddballs in the religious counterculture, whose insights or revelations are consistent with mine.
--Linda