What isn't spiritual?

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Netti-Netti,

thank you for the post.

Sure.

A quick look at the Pali Canon reveals many references to deities that seem to vary in stature. The Mahasamaya Sutta mentions 60 diva groups. There is the story of Kevatta the householder who went to the Brahma world looking for answers who had a chance to meet several of these beings.

i'm fairly sure that i had agreed with you that Buddha Dharma posits that deities exist. what i am asking, however, is if the Buddha Dharma teaches that reliance upon deities is helpful to ones practice?

Buddha dealt with the supernatural himself and clearly took it seriously. So why shouldn't an individual practitioner?

i not speaking of sincerity, i'm speaking about the help that a deity can render in ones practice. i wouldn't call it supernatural either, all 31 realms of existence are considered to be part and parcel of the natural world but if the term supernatural simply means experiences outside the norm then i suppose that it could be seen in that manner.

metta,

~v

 

[Netti-Netti]

Namaste Netti-Netti,

thank you for the post.

Namaste Vajradhara, and thank you for following faithfully.

I'm fairly sure that i had agreed with you that Buddha Dharma posits that deities exist. what i am asking, however, is if the Buddha Dharma teaches that reliance upon deities is helpful to ones practice?

Reliance may be operative and directly relevant to one's attainments without one specifically intending it. We may be actively seeking brahma interventions and we may be receiving illumination all the time without necessarily thinking of it in those terms. Reliance may happen "incidentally" and it may indeed support practice regardless of it being consciously intended.

It is said in the Pali Canons that certain devas fully appreciate the teachings and wish to be born as humans in order to join the fellowship of humans, to practice the Dharma within this realm, and to be of assistance to others.

If reliance upon deities is not spelled out in detail in the primary teachings, that could be because the Buddha saw no need to encourage it. Maybe he knew many of his followers would hold onto their old Hindu belief system and continue to worship Brahma, Shiva and Vishnu (and other Hindu gods).

It's also possible that the early tradition Dharma teachings were principally intended for people who do not know whether they want liberation and arahantship. This initial focus does not rule out the advantages of reliance on deities at a later time.

i'm speaking about the help that a deity can render in ones practice.

There are brahma interventions:

The teacher, the great sage,
Is the first in the world;
Following him is the disciple
Whose composure is perfected;
And then the learner training on the path,
One who has learned much and is virtuous.

These three are chief amongst devas and humans:
Illuminators, preaching Dhamma,
Opening the door to the Deathless,
They free many people from bondage.
Iti 72-90 (excerpts):

i wouldn't call it supernatural either, all 31 realms of existence are considered to be part and parcel of the natural world but if the term supernatural simply means experiences outside the norm then i suppose that it could be seen in that manner.

It seems the 31 realms are subsumed within the natural world because they are subject to time and change. However, they are special within the scheme of the Buddhist vertical cosmology. It seems these realms are to greater or lesser degrees removed from human realm. Maybe supernormal would be a better term than "supernatural."

 

[Quahom1]

"What isn't spiritual?" The question seems to set up a dichotomy - "spiritual" vs "spiritual." How about greater or lesser degrees?

Offhand, I'd say actively trying to destroy the spiritual aspect of life is not so spiritual. I suppose one could argue that this can be a learning experience that ultimately has some spiritual value.

I think if "spiritual" is defined as reaching for a higher plane of existence/awareness, then the deliberate supression of man's conscience is the antipathy of spirituality.

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Netti-Netti,

thank you for the post.

Reliance may be operative and directly relevant to one's attainments without one specifically intending it. We may be actively seeking brahma interventions and we may be receiving illumination all the time without necessarily thinking of it in those terms.

i cannot imagine why a being, having understood the Dharma, would engage in such a path of practice. the Buddha teaches unequivocally, in my estimation, that a sentient beings Kamma/karma cannot be mitigated by any other being and the detieis, themselves, are bound to kamma as well. they are in precisely the same situation as humans in this regard. indeed, their rebirth is less fortunate than that of a human. we don't receive illumination, we light our own candle.

Reliance may happen "incidentally" and it may indeed support practice regardless of it being consciously intended.

i understand what you are saying. in Buddha Dharma the reliances which are acknowledged do not pertain to deities of any sort.

If reliance upon deities is not spelled out in detail in the primary teachings, that could be because the Buddha saw no need to encourage it. Maybe he knew many of his followers would hold onto their old Hindu belief system and continue to worship Brahma, Shiva and Vishnu (and other Hindu gods).

i'm not really clear on how useful it is to speculate regarding motivations for teaching one thing and not another. we have the teachings and, by and large, the reason that the teaching was given and to whom, all within the same Sutta. some Suttas do not include the motivation behind the Buddhas teaching but that is generally not the case.

It's also possible that the early tradition Dharma teachings were principally intended for people who do not know whether they want liberation and arahantship. This initial focus does not rule out the advantages of reliance on deities at a later time.

that doesn't seem likely given the nature of the initial Turning of the Wheel of Dharma.

There are brahma interventions:

The teacher, the great sage,
Is the first in the world;
Following him is the disciple
Whose composure is perfected;
And then the learner training on the path,
One who has learned much and is virtuous.

These three are chief amongst devas and humans:
Illuminators, preaching Dhamma,
Opening the door to the Deathless,
They free many people from bondage.
Iti 72-90 (excerpts):

that Sutta is speaking of the Tathagata, the arhants and the disciples that practice the Dharma, in that those three sorts of beings are the chief amongst all humans and deities. it is not indicating that deities open the door to the deathless... and, even if it did, the walking through the door is something that only we can do. the term "illuminators" is referencing a being called a Tathagata also called a Buddha and their preaching of the Dhamma/Dharma is the opening of the door to the deathless which frees people from bondage.

It seems the 31 realms are subsumed within the natural world because they are subject to time and change. However, they are special within the scheme of the Buddhist vertical cosmology. It seems these realms are to greater or lesser degrees removed from human realm. Maybe supernormal would be a better term than "supernatural."

one of the 31 realms is the human realm and i like the term.... is there a qualitative difference between supernormal and supranormal?

metta,

~v

 

[Netti-Netti]

i cannot imagine why a being, having understood the Dharma, would engage in such a path of practice.

Obviously we are making inferences. But apparently the Buddha felt such a path had merit or else he would not have given examples of Brahma interventions. I would think they would become available to practitioners who are open to such interventions. However, conscious intention may not be essential. Again, we may be actively seeking Brahma interventions and we may be receiving illumination all the time without actively trying to make it happen.

i'm not really clear on how useful it is to speculate regarding motivations for teaching one thing and not another.

It's always ambiguous. But in most forms of communication, relevance would be part of the operational criteria for inclusion.

that Sutta is speaking of the Tathagata, the arhants and the disciples that practice the Dharma, in that those three sorts of beings are the chief amongst all humans and deities. it is not indicating that deities open the door to the deathless... and, even if it did, the walking through the door is something that only we can do.

The passage reads: "Opening the door to the Deathless, They free many people from bondage." That tells me the devas are opening the door.

the term "illuminators" is referencing a being called a Tathagata

My reading of it is that the Devas are illuminators

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Netti-Netti,

thank you for the post.

The passage reads: "Opening the door to the Deathless, They free many people from bondage." That tells me the devas are opening the door.

My reading of it is that the Devas are illuminators

i realize that such a method is common place amongst Christians that i have dialoged with however such a method is going to be out of place when reading the Suttas. it is important to read the whole Sutta so that a proper understand of the subject can be garnered.

one translation of the Sutta reads thus:

This was said by the Lord...
"Bhikkhus, these three persons appearing in the world appear for the welfare of many people, for the happiness of many people, out of compassion for the world, for the good, welfare, and happiness of devas and humans. What three?

"Here, bhikkhus, a Tathagata appears in the world, an Arahant, a Fully Enlightened One, possessing perfect knowledge and conduct, a sublime one, a world-knower, an unsurpassed leader of persons to be tamed, a teacher of devas and humans, an enlightened one, a Lord. He teaches Dhamma that is good at the outset, good in the middle, and good at the end, with its correct meaning and wording, and he proclaims the holy life in its fulfillment and complete purity. This, bhikkhus, is the first person appearing in the world who appears for the welfare of many people, for the happiness of many people, out of compassion for the world, for the good, welfare, and happiness of devas and humans.

"Next, bhikkhus, there is a disciple of that teacher, an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, and is completely released through final knowledge. He teaches Dhamma... and he proclaims the holy life in its fulfillment and complete purity. This, bhikkhus, is the second person appearing in the world... for the good, welfare, and happiness of devas and humans.

"And next, bhikkhus, there is a disciple of that teacher, a learner who is following the path, who has learned much and is of virtuous conduct. He teaches Dhamma... and he proclaims the holy life in its fulfillment and complete purity. This, bhikkhus, is the third person appearing in the world... for the good, welfare, and happiness of devas and humans.

"These, bhikkhus, are the three persons appearing in the world who appear for the welfare of many people, for the happiness of many people, out of compassion for the world, for the good, welfare, and happiness of devas and humans."

you'll note that nowhere in the Sutta does it mention that devas have any role here, in specifically states that the Tathagata is the one that expounds the Dhamma and that the three beings opening the door to the deathless are the Tathagata, the arhants and the disciples.

the verse reads:

The teacher, the great sage,
Is the first in the world;
Following him is the disciple
Whose composure is perfected;
And then the learner training on the path,
One who has learned much and is virtuous.

These three are chief amongst devas and humans:
Illuminators, preaching Dhamma,
Opening the door to the Deathless,
They free many people from bondage.

Those who follow the path
Well taught by the unsurpassed
Caravan-leader, who are diligent
In the Sublime One's dispensation,
Make an end of suffering.
Within this very life itself

the verse is harder to see the subject due to the arrangement of the translator more than anything else... (i'm not sure how to import all the formatting to render the poetry as it is written).

with the Pali language i've always found it helpful to view alternate translations of the Suttas so that i can get a more broad understanding of the nuances of the sermon. of course personal taste has a role to play and, as such, i prefer Thanissaro's translations of the Pali, to wit:

This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "These three persons, appearing in the world, appear for the benefit of many, the happiness of many, in sympathy for the world — for the welfare, the benefit, the happiness of beings human & divine. Which three?

"There is the case where a Tathagata appears in the world, worthy & rightly self-awakened, consummate in clear knowing & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the cosmos, unsurpassed trainer of tamable people, teacher of beings human & divine, awakened, blessed. He teaches the Dhamma admirable in its beginning, admirable in its middle, admirable in its end. He proclaims the holy life both in its particulars & in its essence, entirely perfect, surpassingly pure. This is the first person who, appearing in the world, appears for the benefit of many, the happiness of many, in sympathy for the world — for the welfare, the benefit, the happiness of beings human & divine.

"Furthermore, there is the disciple of that Teacher who is a worthy one, his mental fermentations ended, who has reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who is released through right gnosis. He teaches the Dhamma admirable in its beginning, admirable in its middle, admirable in its end. He proclaims the holy life both in its particulars & in its essence, entirely perfect, surpassingly pure. This is the second person who, appearing in the world, appears for the benefit of many, the happiness of many, in sympathy for the world — for the welfare, the benefit, the happiness of beings human & divine.

"Furthermore, there is the disciple of that Teacher who is a learner, following the way, erudite, endowed with [good] practices & principles. He, too, teaches the Dhamma admirable in its beginning, admirable in its middle, admirable in its end. He proclaims the holy life both in its particulars & in its essence, entirely perfect, surpassingly pure. This is the third person who, appearing in the world, appears for the benefit of many, the happiness of many, in sympathy for the world — for the welfare, the benefit, the happiness of beings human & divine.

"These are the three persons who, appearing in the world, appear for the benefit of many, the happiness of many, in sympathy for the world — for the welfare, the benefit, the happiness of beings human & divine."

this translation of the Sutta is more clear that it is a Tathagata which expounds the Dhamma not a deva of any sort, in my opinion. the verse is more explicit in this instance, perhaps:

The Teacher,
Great Seer,
is first in the world;
following him, the disciple
composed;
and then the learner,
erudite, following the way,
endowed with good virtue,
practices.

These three, chief
among beings divine & human,
giving light, proclaiming the Dhamma,
throw open the door to the Deathless,
release many from bondage.
Those who follow the path,
well-taught by the Caravan Leader
unsurpassed,
will put an end to stress
right here —
those heeding the message
of the One Well-gone.


it is the three beings that appear for the good of all sentient beings, the Tathagata, the arhants and the disciples that proclaim the Dhamma thereby opening the door of the deathless and a release from bondage for all beings that would enter, devas included. the Sutta makes the rather startling claim that, of all beings that have appeared for the benefit of sentient beings, Tathagatas are chief or foremost amongst them all.

metta,

~v
​

 

[Netti-Netti]

Namaste Netti-Netti,

thank you for the post.

Namaste Vajradhara. Thank you for your careful reading.

i realize that such a method is common place amongst Christians that i have dialoged with however such a method is going to be out of place when reading the Suttas.

If there is no conscious intention, then it is technically not a part of an individual's practice. However, it can benefit practice. In fact, the diva interventions would seem to be intended to support practice.

Regarding the question of Illuminators, I do believe your interpretation is correct. Thank you for your patience and for the detailed correction.


In support of my understanding of the role of the devas, here's an example of an intervention from the Viveka Sutta, which describes a deva who comes to the aid of a forest monk who is having trouble staying on track during meditation due to stray thoughts about domestic matters:

the devata inhabiting the forest thicket, feeling sympathy for the monk, desiring his benefit, desiring to bring him to his senses, approached him and addressed him.....​

SN 9.1: Viveka Sutta



Here is an example of an intervention from the Ayoniso-manasikara Sutta, which describes a deva who comes to the aid of a forest monk who is having trouble staying on track during meditation due to tendences toward "sensuality, thoughts of ill will, thoughts of doing harm":

Keeping your mind on the Teacher, the Dhamma, the Sangha, your virtues, you will arrive at joy, rapture, pleasure without doubt.​

SN 9.11: Ayoniso-manasikara Sutta



Here is an example of an intervention from the Gandhatthena Sutta, which describes a deva who comes to the aid of a forest monk who is drifting into a state of possessiveness that could result in a loss of purity:

It's you to whom I should speak. To a person unblemished, constantly searching for purity, a hair-tip's worth of evil seems as large as a cloud.​

SN 9.14: Gandhatthena Sutta

In the Vajjiputta Sutta we see a deva who comes to the aid of a forest monk who is doubting his situation and drifting into a state of self-pity. The deva reminds the monk that his solitary life is the envy of many.
SN 9.9: Vajjiputta Sutta

I would be interested in any other examples you might have of devas who help humans by supporting humans' spiritual practice.

I notice some of the interventions are unusual (and hence memorable). For example, Sakka the deva king appearing in the guise of a blind old man in order to give a Bodhisatta an opportunity to donate his eyes.
Dana

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste netti-netti,

thank you for the post.

If there is no conscious intention, then it is technically not a part of an individual's practice. However, it can benefit practice. In fact, the diva interventions would seem to be intended to support practice.

sorry for the confusion, i was speaking of the practice of taking a sentence of two out of a large body of literature and then making conclusions based on those snippets. it is not likely to lead to a correct cognition of the teaching which is being given. i note that many, if not most, Christians use this method when they dialog, i.e. posting a single sentence or two out of, say John, and proceeding to build an elaborate theological construct upon the snippets when it could well be that the intention of the teaching was missed.

diva and devas are different things i think a diva is a human female singer at some level of popularity or, perhaps, just a personality quirk whereas devas are beings that exist in a manner substantially different than you and i.

Regarding the question of Illuminators, I do believe your interpretation is correct. Thank you for your patience and for the detailed correction.

no worries

In support of my understanding of the role of the devas, here's an example of an intervention from the Viveka Sutta, which describes a deva who comes to the aid of a forest monk who is having trouble staying on track during meditation due to stray thoughts about domestic matters:

the devata inhabiting the forest thicket, feeling sympathy for the monk, desiring his benefit, desiring to bring him to his senses, approached him and addressed him.....​

SN 9.1: Viveka Sutta

this is a rather recondite point within Buddha Dharma however the terms deva and devata are meant to denote different beings. a devata would be akin to the western ideas of groves of trees having some sort of immaterial being which guards or inhabits the area rather than, say, like the Norse gods or the like. in limited cases the followers of a particular Deva are denoted as devatas as well. Devas would be more akin to the Norse gods rather than local spirits, as it were. we also have Asuras which would be akin to the western idea of demons and devils even though these beings are not in hell realms. being reborn as an Asura doesn't mean that a being has taken rebirth in the hell realms, it's a rebirth in a fortunate realm but one of the least fortunate of the fortunate ones. then we have Yakkhas which are the analog to devatas only with a more malevolent nature.

in the Suttas which you've cited the devatas appears at their own behest rather than as part of the practice of the monastic in paritcular, they are not invoked or asked to help rather, moved by their compassion they manifest and help.

I would be interested in any other examples you might have of devas who help humans by supporting humans' spiritual practice.

there are many, many devas and devatas which appear throughout the Suttas, here are a few instances that you may find interesting:

in this Sutta the Buddha dialogs with a Yakkha:
SN 10.12: Alavaka Sutta

this is the famous Sutta wherein Brahma Shamapati appears to ask the Buddha to Turn the Wheel of Dharma for the sake of beings with little dust in their eyes:
SN 6.1: Ayacana Sutta

here is a Sutta wherein the Buddha instructs a deva on the Dhamma:
SN 1.1: Ogha-tarana Sutta

metta,

~v

 

[seattlegal]

I'm finding this dialog between Netti-Netti and Vajradhara quite interesting. It brings to mind Genesis 18:16-33, where Abraham is talking to Yahweh, making a plea regarding Yahweh's intended destruction of Sodom, and Yahweh agrees with Abraham's reasoning and plea. Interesting.