Autonomy and Conformity in Religion

dauer

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I notice there seem to be two general camps on the issue of autonomy vs conformity in religious practice. One camp places primary emphasis on the individual. The other places primary emphasis on the community. And then there are some people who are somewhere in the middle.

My own feeling is that both are important and each should get different emphasis at different times and in different places. For example, if a spiritual community is together and each individual is doing their own thing, it's not going to work out so well. There may be room within the bounds of what is normative for communal activity for people to do this, that, or the other, but then that is something determined by the shared consensus of the community regardless of where the authority for directing that consensus may lie.

But then there are situations where I am alone. My actions aren't directly effecting the other members of my community (unless we presuppose some metaphysical connection.) In those situations I think it makes sense that to maintain a higher degree of autonomy.

An example from my own life: when I'm at home and I davven, I do so differently from the way I davven when I'm at shul. I tend to go slower and I do a lot more repetitive chanting. At shul the pace is usually a bit faster and more of the liturgy is covered. I think psychologically there is something satisfying for me as well in that, on the one hand, when I'm alone I can do my own thing and when I'm with other people I can submit to the practices of the community. It feels different. When I have control of the tempo and mood of my practice there is something I don't get that I do get in an externally orchestrated spiritual experience. The opposite is true as well. In addition to the pacing, if I'm part of a larger group there is the possibility for surprise. I can't surprise myself so easily if I davven alone.

On another level there's the individual and their family unit. In that case my view is pretty similar. Individual members of a family are going to have things they do on their own, or don't do on their own, and then as a family unit there are going to be things that are done together. Generally the authority in a family which determines shared practice is the parents, with or without some degree of input from the children depending on the structure of the family. The parents may advise the children on personal practice just as the community or leaders within a community may advise individual members on their own practice.

What are your thoughts? Do you place emphasis primarily on the individual, on the community, or somewhere in between?
 
Interesting post, Dauer. I have little to add, except that I agree with your take on it and that is my experience also. For a while I tried to go the route where I united my personal spirituality with a communal religion in all forms. I ended up with cognitive dissonance and depression. Then I tried to go the route where I ignored communal religion and only had personal spirituality. It was OK, but I felt like I was missing something- that there is something important in spiritual practice as a group.

Doing both, but allowing myself autonomy in my own practices alone, this seems to work beneficially in all ways. And, like you, it means that I can experience the same activities quite differently depending on if I am alone or with others.
 
Hi Dauer

Man is in the image of God so when God sits on the throne, he produces creation. When Man sits on the throne he produces S--t. Creation is really just different quailties of s--t. :)

2009 is the centennial year of Simone Weil's birth and I hope to be involved in some introductions to discussions on her ideas in college philosophy clubs. This thread basically concerns one of these ideas.

In "The Need for Roots," She describes a human soul to be similar to a plant. The roots of the plant acquire nutrients from the soil. A healthy plant has deep roots in good soil and is far safer from the elements such as wind that could destroy it.

The plant produces leaves and these leaves receive the light of the sun and a different but necessary quality of nutrition also serving the function of photosynthesis for the good of nature's balance. The sun is analogous to "grace" which properly distributes the results of the roots.

The good soil is analogous to a healthy culture that has as its goal to produce healthy souls. This is the opposite of what we have now since the essential transcendent influence of religion has either mostly degenerated into fantasy or forgotten altogether in favor of freedom from perverted religion. As a result, healthy souls are psychologically starved and sacrificed to serve the secular goals of the collective. Plato recognizes this as the effect of the "Beast."

I've verified the truth of this to my own satisfaction. My conclusion is that it is impossible in these times of the dominance of glitz and technology to produce societal good soil. The good soil will be consciously created and nurtured in organizations such as private schools and in living churches where the value of good soil is appreciated. The people affiliated with them will produce quality leaves and be open to receive the conscious influence of grace, I hope, that will preserve the conscious connection between man on earth and its source that grace provides.

The question for me becomes what good soil (culture) is and how do we produce it? Any philosophy student that still defines philosophy as the "love of wisdom" will be intrigued with this question. How do we consider this question without becoming lost in feel good platitudes and sink into meaningless imagination?
 
I think each individual has differing needs regarding individuality and communal worship. The degree to which each individual is introverted or extroverted probably is a major factor in this.

One thing about communal beliefs--they can lead towards tribalism, and the view that those from outside your tribe are somehow less than human.

A community is composed of individuals--by definition, there is no community without individuals who interact with each other. Having respect towards the individual is one way to guard against the negative effects of tribalism, imo.
 
Interesting that an autonomy/conformity question is framed as a devotional practice issue. If you look at it from an adult developmental perspective, I would say that it goes well beyond circumscribed devotional practice.

I think religious development among adults will be especially important in terms of value clarification and understanding religious duties as social obligations. Certain religions emphasize this social dimension a lot. It's pretty obvious from the Ten Commandments.

I think it may depend on stage of life. However, I would think that intensifications of religiosity in adulthood often derive from interpersonal issues for which the individual is seeking guidance. Especially the meaning of concepts like personal recognition versus social obligation, betrayal and commitment, attachment and loss, interpersonal stress, authenticity, purity of motive, quality of relationships, altruism, service ethic, etc etc.

I think to some extent these are issues are variants of what's going on between the person and G-d.
 
Seattle,

I was really directing the question more to standards of practice. To me beliefs are a separate issue around which there's much more leeway. I think it's probably easier to hold a much different belief and practice with a community than it is to say, jump up and down stating random colors while everyone else is crawling on the ground singing about the greatness of plastics.

Netti,

I think to some extent these are issues are variants of what's going on between the person and G-d.

I would have to agree with you as I tend to see myth as a projection of psychic content onto external reality. However, I'm not certain that an individual's degree of autonomy or conformity to a religious community has so much to do with their relationship with G!d, maybe with their conceptualization of G!d or G!d's will. I think in many ways it's probably going to mirror the way they approach other communal organizations. The way it varies I think would probably have to do with the person's attitude toward religion and religiosity in general where some people might be deeply involved in communal religious practice as a matter of their nature or upbringing and others have no interest in involvement with religion whatsoever.

I think intensifications of religiosity are probably a sign of something else, as you suggest, but I'm not really referring to changes in religiosity, just differences in individuals' standard approaches. Some people go their whole lives preferring a very private spiritual practice. Others become not only members of a religious community, but completely absorbed in the ways of the community both within and outside of it. In a sense it's to me more a question of who and what a person vests with authority in matters of spiritual practice. As I see it any practice one chooses is automatically co-signed but where a person turns for guidance in that practice, be it a community's consensus, an individual authority figure, a text or their own ideas isolated from or in opposition to their own form of spiritual practice, or a combination of the above, is going to vary a lot from individual to individual in ways that aren't fully indicative of the stage of life that they're in.

-- Dauer
 
Just a quick point —

Christianity (I cannot speak for Judaism or Islam) treats not of the individual primarily, but of human nature, the individual being second and subsequent to his nature.

Once one looks at the question from the perspective of nature, and not of the individual, one sees things differently.

I could supply loads of data to support this, but two quotes suffice:
"God became man, He did not come into a man" Athanasius
"What is not assumed is not healed" Gregory Nazianzen

The Fathers, from Irenaeus on, founding their doctrine on the Pauline idea of recapitulation (Ephesians 2:10), emphasise the priority of nature (ousia or in the case of Irenaeus plasma) over individual being (hypostasis). (Physis, another term for nature, us usually deployed with regard to material nature of things rather than the essential nature.) Human nature was corrupted in Adam, and reconstituted in Christ, for example.

The cult of the ego of the West in the late twentieth century is another example of the inversion of a traditional teaching ... putting the individual above nature.

Seen from this perspective, it knocks a lot of current thinking into a cocked hat.

In the Christian Tradition it's not a matter of autonomy or conformity, it's a matter of nature and the practice of virtue.

And no man is above virtue, or impervious to vice.

Thomas
 
ridiculously, I yearn for the kind of spiritual community that accepts me and which I too accept in turn... I cannot find one... it seems I must change, to become something else, someone else, before I am granted membership of the group, or they must change, become more or less something else, before I will consider myself a member... Yet still, it is there, the harkening for community, to know that within this crazy field of dreams my dreams are not so strange, and yet... alas, there is none...

And so, what do you do then, if, like me, you yearn for community?

You start your own religion!

It doesn't have to be particularly innovative, you may borrow from the themes of the past if you so choose, but my favourite so far involves devotees wearing silly hats, and involves a lot of standing on the head meditation and listening to captain beefheart whilst gazing through cellophane windowpanes...

Suffice to say, due to the oil crisis cellophane has become like gold dust... we have moved on the traditional ink blotter tabs now, with artwork by Banksy.

But, in all seriousness... Part of my problem with religion, any religion, is the insistence on conformity and the relative sin of autonomy... time and time again I am told... we must have faith... we must believe, we must do, or must not do, something, anything, especially think independently... and yet:

Buddha... renegade... should've been a good hindu, really, but no! et voila... buddhism...

Jesus... probably should've been a good jew, but nah... instead... christianity...

Buddha...Jesus...Mohammed...Lenin...Hitler...Nietzche... some of the best minds the world has spawned- powerful, intelligent, committed, visionary, successful... if any one of them had done what they were told, conformed to expectations, proscriptions, other people's tenets, ethics and values, the course of history would have changed beyond all recognition...

Of course, I am not advocating all out anarchy- I want a store to buy milk from, I want to go to the theatre, be able to power my PC, but doing what you're told to do, based on no merit than it has been said and done this way for years... forget it... times change...

I was out today, singing... we stand, before the show, and sing God Save the Queen... I, however, am not a royalist, so I sit. Purposefully. As is my right. I do not have to support the monarchy, and hope they reign over me indefinately, as my own view is that they are parasites, and should all be de-frocked. And yet, that simple gesture changed the focus of the rest of the day. Some people, previously decent, were now...snippy... some, previously snippy, were smiling... now, it may seem like foolish behaviour to you, perhaps, to consciously make a small point of doing what you choose, but I advocate it's a way of life which everybody should at least try once.

I see no difference in religion or politics here- both institutions impose a set of outmoded values upon its members, who are little more than peasants, and we support the system by complicity. I am not suggesting we should rampage in the streets or cause others injury- that's not fun, really, but I reccommend everybody thinks about what they're supporting and why, and not be so like sheep...

I would not mind if there was some gain in this behaviour, but most time there is no visible gain, except feeling like a member of the establishment. A very small member, flaccid, and most likely impotent.
 
Seattle,

I was really directing the question more to standards of practice. To me beliefs are a separate issue around which there's much more leeway. I think it's probably easier to hold a much different belief and practice with a community than it is to say, jump up and down stating random colors while everyone else is crawling on the ground singing about the greatness of plastics.
Well, yeah, if everyone having a focused group practice, it only makes sense that one should focus on what the group is trying to accomplish. Otherwise, what's the point of having a focused group practice or study?
 
ridiculously, I yearn for the kind of spiritual community that accepts me and which I too accept in turn... I cannot find one... it seems I must change, to become something else, someone else, before I am granted membership of the group, or they must change, become more or less something else, before I will consider myself a member...

Tell me about it... I tried to join the Black Panthers movement....
 
Francis King


I see no difference in religion or politics here- both institutions impose a set of outmoded values upon its members, who are little more than peasants, and we support the system by complicity. I am not suggesting we should rampage in the streets or cause others injury- that's not fun, really, but I reccommend everybody thinks about what they're supporting and why, and not be so like sheep.

How can you expect to find meaning where it doesn't exist?

Ecclesiastes 1:


1 The words of the Teacher, [a] son of David, king in Jerusalem:
2 "Meaningless! Meaningless!"
says the Teacher.
"Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless."
3 What does man gain from all his labor
at which he toils under the sun?
4 Generations come and generations go,
but the earth remains forever.
5 The sun rises and the sun sets,
and hurries back to where it rises.
6 The wind blows to the south
and turns to the north;
round and round it goes,
ever returning on its course.
7 All streams flow into the sea,
yet the sea is never full.
To the place the streams come from,
there they return again.
8 All things are wearisome,
more than one can say.
The eye never has enough of seeing,
nor the ear its fill of hearing.
9 What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.
10 Is there anything of which one can say,
"Look! This is something new"?
It was here already, long ago;
it was here before our time. 11 There is no remembrance of men of old,
and even those who are yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow.
Of course in the secular world, religion suffers the same hypocrisy as politics. It is the nature of the beast to pull everything towards the earth where as a whole, nothing else can be expected but hypocrisy..

We are the great beast and the great beast is composed of sheep. How would you change it? You ask for people to think but they are doing it all the time and arguing over their thoughts. What do you suggest they think about?
 
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