Moderator against Member Religion against Religion

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LenoBee

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I have been watching this forum for the last 90 days and have observed the attitudes of people very well before joining.

1) Certain moderators, have a bad habit of attacking new members for their views when they disagree with it in a rude attempt to change their views by harassment, insulting their views and telling them their views are wrong or not allowed by challenging them to debate then pulling the moderator card on members when they are losing the debate and disagree. They are like the fish in the tank that nip and bite at all the other fish. That does not mean all moderators do this. What it means is some moderators are ignorant.
2) Moderators who do not allow members to express their views the way they wish to express them without harassing them and filing false accusations against them. Then they cannot understand why members bite back.
3) It appears to happen every day. Yes? Exalting their self to an eminence front, higher than what really is, in an indirect way silencing through intimidation.
4) Is this how this forum has always operated? Submit or be cast out? Perhaps some members need to go back to when they first joined to remember how it really is? I know my experience has been way below the expected value.
5) Certain Moderators, engage in a dialog with members then swiftly change their position from round member to pointy finger moderator when they are losing the debate and wear their puffy crowns flexing their muscles and again silence the members through deliberate insults. This is in fact a type of cyber harassment that I am expecting new law to appear in some states within the next couple of years to protect members on forums, blog, texting and all public places on the Internet.
6) Like any place with such politics, there will always be a need for the people to vote out those in self-serving, egocentric and stagnant office positions.
7) This forum with moderators against members fully expresses religion against religion, rather than a comparative religion. The real issues are not allowed to be addressed, keeping everyone dancing around the issues as if they do not exist while it is OK for moderators to offend and mock members. Members are made to look like criminals for giving their view.
8) The areas that are for those people like myself who are outside of a religion, are also used by those who are within a religion, which is not really correct because the people outside of the religion are there because they don’t want to hear what is in the religion it to begin with. Members are chased out of the religion area to use the belief and comparative area and the moderators chase the members who are freethinkers, or known as godless, thus rarely allowing opposing views to flourish. Typical of religion.
9) I am certain none of this will change. It is what it is. The forum leaders reflect the owners’ views and bias on how to treat others who strongly disagree by attacking with the pathetic straw man excuse instead of addressing valid points. I have not personally met the owner but have lived long enough to know how these pyramid schemes operate. The forum preaches tolerance yet itself is not tolerant of certain views. There is nothing different about the bias of this forum than the bias of any other religious or political forum.
10) It took me less than two weeks to see all of this after confronting Darear for his behavior toward another member. Then challenges me to debate him, avoids the dialog requested, then he throws a temper tantrum with the moderator card to silence me, instead of addressing the issues properly. Ban me. That will render your powerless over me.
11) Of course the moderators here who bully are always right and could never make mistakes and all of the members who disagree are wrong. How quickly the daggers and fangs appear is astounding. It reminds me of a cyber gang hiding in a dead end alley.
12) I am certain I have noticed that some moderators are actually very kind and do not misuse their authority and have shown compassion with all fairness allowing other views to be heard in the manner they wish to give it. Please keep in mind, I conclude that not all of the moderators here need an adjustment. I have not had an honest chance to meet them all and I find it impossible that the obvious problem here could be a cloned thing. Political Yes. Cloned hopefully Not.
13) We will not all agree on this and naturally members/moderators who are friends will come to their defense to take the witness stand. I did notice these same complaints while sifting through other posts. I know I am not alone on these issues.
14) This is a time for those of you who have been harassed and treated disrespectfully by a particular moderator(s), to speak up with constructive advice or forever hold your peace. Or in the words of one moderator, LEAVE. I would not expect any changes. While the forum title exclaims without bias, a bias has been displayed.
15) Perhaps if these select, mean and bullying moderators would keep quiet themselves for awhile they could actually do a good job, which is to moderate the members who quarrel with each other, instead of being the person starting the quarrel attempting to topple all who disagree.
16) I may be an old lady. I am not a stupid old lady. I am however too old to really care about what anyone else thinks about this. Please go right ahead and speak your mind the way you wish to say it and don’t be afraid. If I am here today and gone tomorrow, makes no difference to me. Have I wasted my time with this? Probably. Good Day, Sherri
 
Namaste LenoBee,

I was a member before I was invited to become a moderator.

I can tell you it is no way an easy task. We get emails when members post complaints about other members or moderators. So and so did so and so and this and that should happen.

The majority of complaints are looked at and weighed, if we'd respond as requested there would have been hundreds of posts like yours in my short tenure.

Currently what I see on this forum that I have issues with is a lack of respect for variant views, a quick resorting to name calling, folks responding with anger prior to thinking. We all do it occasionally, the apologies help, but they are few and far between.

Some folks come here specifically to ruffle feathers, as prophets, as proselytizers, or with intention to berate, instigate, antogonize other belief systems. I admit I have a low tolerance for this and am constantly working on understanding what is behind it.

But as I see it, the majority of those here are here for discussion, contemplation and education. And despite the flaws of a group of volunteer moderators...most of us wish to come back, wish to continue participation, and don't wish to be banned from the site.

I'm sorry but I call that success, maybe not an idealic screaming success, but success.

Rather than focusing on the problems, look to the good this site and discussion brings. Look at why you want to stay here and communicate. No one is forcing anyone to type in this url...the mere fact that you are here is indication that it has value.

peace

wil
 
Hello-

I was also asked to be a moderator after being a contributing member for a while.

I am a moderator on another forum on a totally different topic, and I can say this is one of the most hands-off forums I've been on (both as a mod and as a member).

About the only rules we seem to consistently enforce are:
- No personal attacks on others (i.e., stuff people would normally not say face-to-face due to rudeness or aggression).
- No proselytizing to people, especially in single religion forums (i.e., a Christian should not proselytize to a Muslim on the Islam board).
- No spamming. (Most of the work on this goes behind the scenes and you never see these people- these are the ones that put a gazillion posts of "By this website domain for only $99.99")
- Don't de-rail threads over and over. Try to stay reasonably on topic rather than using another poster's thread for an ongoing conversation or debate on some unrelated or very marginally related issue. This is in respect to the original poster and to keep things decently organized so people can find the topics that are relevant to them.
- Criticism and questioning of moderator decisions should be handled through a PM to any moderator (if you have difficulty with one moderator, there are a bunch of other mods to whom you can talk, or you can PM I, Brian- the owner- he is often busy, however) or should go into the Feedback section. This is for organization. Feedback should be in, well, Feedback- just as you have done.

We have very little moderation here compared to the other forums on which I've been a member and a moderator. We have virtually no censorship outside of prosyletizing and attacks. That's pretty open, if you ask me, but we each have our own experiences to reflect from. Another place I mod permanently bans members on a 3-strike rule if they break any rule, and those rules are extensive to include proper grammar! :eek:

It's not as easy as it might seem to moderate a large forum. We generally aren't responding with moderation as a result of our own sentiments. Members of this forum flag and report posts with which they take issue, and we have to figure out what to do with them. Invariably, what some members find offensive, others find freedom of speech. What for some is interesting debate is for others rude argument. It's tough to make everyone happy when you have over 5000 members, all of which have their own ideas about what constitutes good interfaith discussion.

We are humans dealing with complex issues and a myriad of demands. And this is not our job. This is, at best, one of our hobbies. All of us work full time, have families, have life going on. We have good days and bad days. We sometimes wake up on the wrong side of the bed with a bad hair day. We have feelings, too.

Of course, moderators aren't perfect. Because we're just members that happen to have the shared responsibility of dealing with other members' complaints and the constant threat of spammers.

If I would ask anything of our members, it is that they realize that behind our actions, there is a great deal of discussion and sometimes confusion as we try to sort out the needs and complaints of your fellow members. The moderation process does not start with us. It starts among the membership.

Secondly, I would ask for patience and understanding. We aren't a professionally trained conflict resolution team. We're not counselors. We're just folks that were around a while and willing to spend an inordinate amount of our personal time dealing with spam-containment and other people's complaints so a place could function that would (hopefully) produce good interfaith dialogue for all of us. We're scientists, engineers, moms, dads, writers, construction workers...

Please keep in mind that we are ordinary people doing the best we can with a whole lot of people's issues, and we are volunteering a good chunk of our time to try to create a good online space for folks. We certainly will try to accommodate criticism and feedback, but please keep in mind that every voice is one among many that we hear.

Any person can start a discussion forum. Proboards allows free discussion forums. People who really take offense at the way CR functions has a plethora of other options for interfaith dialogue, including sites such as BeliefNet, and the option to start your own discussion board with whatever rules and moderation standards you choose. I am not encouraging people to leave, but for those who do not realize it and wish to have a forum that operates the way they particularly desire, it is an option. I've creating them before for small group discussion among people not on CR- for reading groups and such. Just be prepared... any site that gets big like this is a HUGE amount of work, and you will find the same problems... you can't make 100% of people happy 100% of the time.

Peace,
Kim
 
About the only rules we seem to consistently enforce are:- Don't de-rail threads over and over. Try to stay reasonably on topic rather than using another poster's thread for an ongoing conversation or debate on some unrelated or very marginally related issue.

Is this also being enforced within the moderator circle? :)
 
I think so. As I remember it, when I moved Cyberpi and my own conversation (that was pages of de-railment) from the OP and put it in its own thread, I explained why and apologized to the OP for inadvertently adding some 3-odd pages of debate that was off-topic to their thread.

I make mistakes, but I'll own them and do what I can to fix them.
 
I think so. As I remember it, when I moved Cyberpi and my own conversation (that was pages of de-railment) from the OP and put it in its own thread, I explained why and apologized to the OP for inadvertently adding some 3-odd pages of debate that was off-topic to their thread.

I make mistakes, but I'll own them and do what I can to fix them.

Yeps I've done the same thing before when I noticed I started getting off topic.

-- Dauer
 
Hi Kim,

I can say this is one of the most hands-off forums I've been on (both as a mod and as a member)....About the only rules we seem to consistently enforce are:

- No personal attacks on others
Yet we see this all the time.

- No proselytizing to people, especially in single religion forums
This is a logical impossibility. Any time someone asserts an opinion it is in the hope of convincing others.


- Don't de-rail threads over and over.
Yet we see this all the time.

- Criticism and questioning of moderator decisions should be handled through a PM to any moderator
Why? Since other members are affected by moderator decisions, shouldn't all forum member have input?

We have very little moderation here compared to the other forums on which I've been a member and a moderator. We have virtually no censorship outside of prosyletizing and attacks.
You state this as though it is a desirable state of affairs.


Of course, moderators aren't perfect. Because we're just members that happen to have the shared responsibility of dealing with other members' complaints....The moderation process does not start with us. It starts among the membership.
You make it sound like moderators always act on behalf of the members

If I would ask anything of our members, it is that they realize that behind our actions, there is a great deal of discussion
1) Isn't it true that someone was recently banned from the forum? (Cyberpi)

2) Isn't it true that this was a unilateral action on the part of one moderator that did not involve consultation with other moderators?

3) Isn't it true that the grounds for the banning are very unclear (i.e., not evident from the Code of Conduct)?
 
Hi Kim,


Yet we see this all the time.

So we have one vote from Netti-Netti for more moderation (if I am reading this correctly) and one from LenoBee for less moderation. We get this all the time, so this is why we let things slide until they are really bad and then we moderate.

This is also in response to a basic concept of the site owner which is hands-off moderation. Unless it is spam or really bad and consistent, we are to exercise patience and let things be. This is not a democracy. Everyone here is not paying to have shares here. One person owns this board and gets to decide how he wants it to function. Sorry if this comes as a surprise, but this is how discussion boards operate. This is why any one of you who want things to run a particular way could go grab a board of your own and have things exactly as you want them. The owner here is for a general hands-off policy, so we don't do a ton of moderation.

Furthermore, what constitutes a "personal attack" and so forth is not clear, but rather (like laws) worked out by a panel (the moderating team). Generally, we err on the side of caution with moderation since this is what the site owner wants.

Kind of like a privately owned corporation, we are all here because of the vision of one person. Brian has invested a lot into that vision without any request for assistance or funds from the vast majority of the membership. I'm grateful for that. I've seen sites like this go to demands for funds to pay for the server, domain, and other items that are costly and time-consuming to maintain for their operation. So I respect Brian's vision, because he's the one that puts the most time and money into making this site work. I know that I could always form a site of my own and invest my own resources and vision into it. But I'm too lazy. LOL :eek: Plus, I like the people and overall tone here compared to other places I have visited.

But there is always the option of voting with one's feet in any situation where an organization is privately owned. What is not reasonable, in my estimation, is to expect that others do the work and invest the money, but that everything is run the way one wants it. I'm not suggesting you or others feel this way, but I've seen it happen at other forums I've been on and I don't think people realize that they are basically asking to have their cake (a place to go without investment of work or cash on it) and eat it too (to have the place be exactly what they want it to be).

This is a logical impossibility. Any time someone asserts an opinion it is in the hope of convincing others.

I disagree. I also think convincing others of an idea is not the same thing as prosyletizing. The latter is a narrow subset of the former.

Why? Since other members are affected by moderator decisions, shouldn't all forum member have input?

Yes. This is why I said right after the part you quoted, or you can field complaints in Feedback forum, as is being done in this thread. Both options are open to members. What is disruptive is fielding complaints in threads and forums not devoted to that topic.

You state this as though it is a desirable state of affairs.

For some people, it is. Some of our members would prefer a completely hands-off policy with no moderation. We get complaints for nearly every moderation action we take except getting rid of spam, indicating some people would like a conversational free-for-all that could include attacks, evangelizing, and other such things against our CoC. Some of our members would prefer a much more hands-on policy with more moderation. We get complaints rather frequently on a variety of posts people feel should be more heavily moderated.

No matter what we do, we are going to annoy some people here. Everyone seems to want it the way they want it.

You make it sound like moderators always act on behalf of the members

We usually do. Occasionally we are acting behalf of the CoC. We are also members, so occasionally we consider each other as well. But we consider each other the same way we consider other members.

1) Isn't it true that someone was recently banned from the forum? (Cyberpi)

Yes.

Isn't it true that this was a unilateral action on the part of one moderator that did not involve consultation with other moderators?

No. We consulted for about three weeks on this issue. The discussion involved all of us and the site owner. We operated on a warning system before the ban, so there was ample time to discuss with the member as well. The decision was a very long, drawn-out one that was not made easily.

3) Isn't it true that the grounds for the banning are very unclear (i.e., not evident from the Code of Conduct)?

The grounds were not unclear in the communications that we sent over several weeks of warnings with the member. We are currently having discussion about whether to add an additional statement to the CoC and this discussion is likely to take some time. We had never run into the problem before of consistent, deliberate derailment of other people's threads and lack of respect for thread and forum topics. As is the case with standards, rules, and laws everywhere- they evolve out of problems as they happen. Because it was never a problem before, we had to work out these standards as the problem occurred. This is why it took us nearly a month of deliberation and discussion to come to decision. As a result, we are looking into how to handle this in the future.
 
So we have one vote from Netti-Netti for more moderation (if I am reading this correctly)
Yes.

. We consulted for about three weeks on this issue. The discussion involved all of us and the site owner. We operated on a warning system before the ban, so there was ample time to discuss with the member as well. The decision was a very long, drawn-out one that was not made easily.
I saw what happened. Again, at the time it was very unclear how it related to the Code of Conduct. It looked like an arbitrary decision to me - possibly due to my limited vantagepoint on the situation

As is the case with standards, rules, and laws everywhere- they evolve out of problems as they happen. Because it was never a problem before, we had to work out these standards as the problem occurred. This is why it took us nearly a month of deliberation and discussion to come to decision. As a result, we are looking into how to handle this in the future.
I see. Thanks.
 
I saw what happened. Again, at the time it was very unclear how it related to the Code of Conduct. It looked like an arbitrary decision to me - possibly due to my limited vantagepoint on the situation

Yes, I would chalk it up to limited vantage point. Naturally, when we have an issue with a member, we generally discuss this issue amongst ourselves in the moderator forum and then discuss with the member through PM. We try to refrain from having members be reprimanded publicly, because most people find this embarassing and rude.

Unfortunately, in order to privately discuss problems with members' behavior, this means other members do not see what is going on, but rather only the results of this process. Usually, the process is resolved in a positive manner and the member remains at CR and is more attentive to the boundaries set forth. However, if a person consistently and over time chooses to ignore those boundaries, we have little recourse but a temporary or permanent ban.

As I stated, we had never had the problem before of a member deliberately derailing multiple threads over time to suit their own needs, as opposed to politely posting new threads for new topics. This is why the problem is not addressed in the CoC (yet). We at first thought that this behavior was unintentional (as it was in my case) and so we redirected the post. It rapidly became clear that this was not the case and that Cyberpi was determined to derail other threads whenever allowed to do so, which caused disruption, complaint, lack of organization and a heavier workload on us to respond to all this. Even so, we spelled out the problem more clearly and were in communication with the member many times to make it clear what the problem was. We gave numerous opportunities, warnings, and offerings of discussion. The member insisted on this behavior despite our best efforts.

As I said, we are working on how we should address this issue in the CoC so that it will never again be unclear if it is allowable behavior.
 
Just as a pointer - I know I've not been here very much of late, but I do run the site, and I've only received a single complaint in the past 3 months - and that related to a potentially sexist comment requested for consideration.

If anyone has a complaint about the site, if anyone has any problems with any specific members, if anyone has any problems with any specific moderators, I will always be happy to receive them.
 
This is a logical impossibility. Any time someone asserts an opinion it is in the hope of convincing others.
Speak for yourself. I post my thoughts on subjects because they help me think through my own ideas, because the discourse raises my game to be self consistent and comprehensive about my 'overview'. I have never once made a post hoping to convert others to my opinion. This is worth a thread on its own! Perhaps "Belief as a function of Ego"?



Yet we see this all the time.
As well as deliberate provocations.



Why does it not surprise me that your inexhaustible effort to draw me into senseless tedium of me denying the words you try to put into my mouth with a call to censor me for my indignation? I can only guess that you majored in politics and religion.

I am now going to delete you from my ability to see your posts. I will miss nothing of the slightest value in the doing.


tao
 
To the OP / LenoBee,

I have had some long running heated, sometimes personalised, 'debates' with a few of the Mods here but not one of them has ever pulled the Mod Card on me. Probably if anyone here stretches the rules to their limit here it is me. And I have been warned.

I think the rules used to be a bit more rigerously enforced than they now are and it has resulted in some passionate debates that were uncommon when I first arrived. Sometimes on a thread I am faced with multiple posters challenging me very personally because they believe that is what I am doing to them. Maybe some would just give up, being 1 against many can get tedious. But the heat of a good debate soon passes. The differences are forgotten then rediscovered and then forgotten again. And we can all go to the lounge and relax, joke and banter to our hearts content.

There is no such thing as the perfect forum. But this one is about as good as they get. I do not see it as needing any alteration.

tao
 
Why does it not surprise me that your inexhaustible effort to draw me into senseless tedium of me denying the words you try to put into my mouth with a call to censor me for my indignation?
Tao, I have no idea what you're talking about and I did not even have you in mind in connection with any of the points I made in the post you are reacting to (my post #8).

I can only guess that you majored in politics and religion.
Sorry, you guessed wrong. None of the above.
 
I have been watching this forum for the last 90 days and have observed the attitudes of people very well before joining.

1) Certain moderators, have a bad habit of attacking new members for their views when they disagree with it in a rude attempt to change their views by harassment, insulting their views and telling them their views are wrong or not allowed by challenging them to debate then pulling the moderator card on members when they are losing the debate and disagree. They are like the fish in the tank that nip and bite at all the other fish. That does not mean all moderators do this. What it means is some moderators are ignorant.
2) Moderators who do not allow members to express their views the way they wish to express them without harassing them and filing false accusations against them. Then they cannot understand why members bite back.
3) It appears to happen every day. Yes? Exalting their self to an eminence front, higher than what really is, in an indirect way silencing through intimidation.
4) Is this how this forum has always operated? Submit or be cast out? Perhaps some members need to go back to when they first joined to remember how it really is? I know my experience has been way below the expected value.
5) Certain Moderators, engage in a dialog with members then swiftly change their position from round member to pointy finger moderator when they are losing the debate and wear their puffy crowns flexing their muscles and again silence the members through deliberate insults. This is in fact a type of cyber harassment that I am expecting new law to appear in some states within the next couple of years to protect members on forums, blog, texting and all public places on the Internet.
6) Like any place with such politics, there will always be a need for the people to vote out those in self-serving, egocentric and stagnant office positions.
7) This forum with moderators against members fully expresses religion against religion, rather than a comparative religion. The real issues are not allowed to be addressed, keeping everyone dancing around the issues as if they do not exist while it is OK for moderators to offend and mock members. Members are made to look like criminals for giving their view.
8) The areas that are for those people like myself who are outside of a religion, are also used by those who are within a religion, which is not really correct because the people outside of the religion are there because they don’t want to hear what is in the religion it to begin with. Members are chased out of the religion area to use the belief and comparative area and the moderators chase the members who are freethinkers, or known as godless, thus rarely allowing opposing views to flourish. Typical of religion.
9) I am certain none of this will change. It is what it is. The forum leaders reflect the owners’ views and bias on how to treat others who strongly disagree by attacking with the pathetic straw man excuse instead of addressing valid points. I have not personally met the owner but have lived long enough to know how these pyramid schemes operate. The forum preaches tolerance yet itself is not tolerant of certain views. There is nothing different about the bias of this forum than the bias of any other religious or political forum.
10) It took me less than two weeks to see all of this after confronting Darear for his behavior toward another member. Then challenges me to debate him, avoids the dialog requested, then he throws a temper tantrum with the moderator card to silence me, instead of addressing the issues properly. Ban me. That will render your powerless over me.
11) Of course the moderators here who bully are always right and could never make mistakes and all of the members who disagree are wrong. How quickly the daggers and fangs appear is astounding. It reminds me of a cyber gang hiding in a dead end alley.
12) I am certain I have noticed that some moderators are actually very kind and do not misuse their authority and have shown compassion with all fairness allowing other views to be heard in the manner they wish to give it. Please keep in mind, I conclude that not all of the moderators here need an adjustment. I have not had an honest chance to meet them all and I find it impossible that the obvious problem here could be a cloned thing. Political Yes. Cloned hopefully Not.
13) We will not all agree on this and naturally members/moderators who are friends will come to their defense to take the witness stand. I did notice these same complaints while sifting through other posts. I know I am not alone on these issues.
14) This is a time for those of you who have been harassed and treated disrespectfully by a particular moderator(s), to speak up with constructive advice or forever hold your peace. Or in the words of one moderator, LEAVE. I would not expect any changes. While the forum title exclaims without bias, a bias has been displayed.
15) Perhaps if these select, mean and bullying moderators would keep quiet themselves for awhile they could actually do a good job, which is to moderate the members who quarrel with each other, instead of being the person starting the quarrel attempting to topple all who disagree.
16) I may be an old lady. I am not a stupid old lady. I am however too old to really care about what anyone else thinks about this. Please go right ahead and speak your mind the way you wish to say it and don’t be afraid. If I am here today and gone tomorrow, makes no difference to me. Have I wasted my time with this? Probably. Good Day, Sherri




Umm Sherri, what is your point. ?
Are you unhappy?
No one really is concerned wether you are an old lady or a young man (or both, in some cases(Tao)) lol.

Moderators are just that, and guess what? some are even human. Whatever your beef is,either do something about it or..................
BUILD A BRIDGE, HONEY AND GET OVER IT.

love the Greymare.
 
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