T
Tao_Equus
Guest
That was conceived without a sperm, that could walk on water, and could spontaneously resurrect after death! If that is 'normal' I wanna be norm.... on 2nd thoughts I dont fancy being crucified...
tao
The Outrageous Claims of Christianity
- Thread starter lunamoth
- Start date
tao
lunamoth
Episcopalian
That was conceived without a sperm, that could walk on water, and could spontaneously resurrect after death! If that is 'normal' I wanna be norm.... on 2nd thoughts I dont fancy being crucified...
tao
The good news is that you are.
T
Tao_Equus
Guest
And the bad news?
Nick the Pilot
Well-Known Member
Lunamoth,
Do you think Jesus can take away our sins?
Do you think Jesus can take away our sins?
lunamoth
Episcopalian
I've noticed that we still have the consequences of sin in this life.
Nick the Pilot
Well-Known Member
"Do you think Jesus can take away our sins? --> I've noticed that we still have the consequences of sin in this life."
--> That means I got a 'no' answer to my question? Doesn't the Bible say Jesus can take away our sins? (Does anyone have a biblical quote to that effect?)
Or are you saying that the Bible is not authoritative on this point?
--> That means I got a 'no' answer to my question? Doesn't the Bible say Jesus can take away our sins? (Does anyone have a biblical quote to that effect?)
Or are you saying that the Bible is not authoritative on this point?
Hi Nick,
Yes. It is evident in word and deed.
In fact it's evidence of Jesus' divinity that those who don't understand the Bible often overlook. To claim one has the power to forgive sin is claiming divine authority — now the Patriarchs and the Prophets spoke in the Name of God, but never claimed divine authority as their own. Jesus, however, in numerous instances, acts on His own authority and in His own name which is a clear and unambiguous claim to His own divinity.
Thomas
Yes, Luke 5, for example.
Yes. It is evident in word and deed.
In fact it's evidence of Jesus' divinity that those who don't understand the Bible often overlook. To claim one has the power to forgive sin is claiming divine authority — now the Patriarchs and the Prophets spoke in the Name of God, but never claimed divine authority as their own. Jesus, however, in numerous instances, acts on His own authority and in His own name which is a clear and unambiguous claim to His own divinity.
Thomas
lunamoth
Episcopalian
That was not a 'no' answer to your question. It reflected back to the 'conflict' you suggested in post #17.
As Thomas said, Jesus took away sin and takes away our sin. We are right with God in spite of our sin and the problems it causes in this world.
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T
Tao_Equus
Guest
Cool!! Means I cannot sin!!
Er no ...
However, I thought it might be useful to pop in with a definition of what 'sin' is, according the Catholic Tradition, at least.
Sin is a moral evil — so what is 'evil'?
Evil is defined by St. Thomas Aquinas (De malo 2:2) as 'a privation of form or order or due measure.'
In the physical order a thing is 'good' in proportion as it possesses being. God alone is essentially being, and He alone is essentially and perfectly good, and God alone possesses fullness of being (another proof of Jesus' divinity: "For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell" Colossians 1:19).
Every created thing possesses limited being, according to its nature, but in so far as it possesses being, it is good.
Evil implies a deficiency, an imperfection, hence it cannot exist in God who suffers no imperfection nor deficiency.
Evil is found only in finite being which, because of its origin from nothing, can be subject to the privation of form or order or measure due them, and, through the opposition they encounter, are liable to an increase or decrease of the perfection they have: "for evil, in a large sense, may be described as the sum of opposition, which experience shows to exist in the universe, to the desires and needs of individuals; whence arises, among human beings at least, the suffering in which life abounds".
According to the nature of the perfection which it limits, evil is metaphysical, physical, or moral.
Metaphysical evil is not necessarily evil properly so called; it is but the negation of a greater good, or the limitation of finite beings by other finite beings.
Physical evil deprives the subject affected by it of some natural good, and is adverse to the well-being of the subject, as, eg. pain and suffering.
Moral evil is found only in intelligent beings, and it deprives them of some moral good. This may be defined as a privation of conformity to right reason and to the law of God. Since the morality of a human act consists in its agreement or non-agreement with right reason and the eternal law, an act is good or evil in the moral order according as it involves this agreement or non-agreement. When the intelligent creature, knowing God and His law, deliberately refuses to obey, moral evil results.
An 'inability to sin' then, would require the suspension of the removal of the rational faculty to make moral choices (indeed the law allows for just such a circumstance under various aspects of impaired reason).
Man is free to accept or refute God (the one 'real' freedom) and in the absence of the knowledge of God, he is free to listen to or ignore the voice of his conscience. Christian doctrine holds that 'conscience' is the Eternal Law written into the very fabric of our being.
Thomas
Nick the Pilot
Well-Known Member
lunamoth,
I seem to remember a passage in Revelations about how we will be held responsible for what we do. It may have been a reference to Judgement Day. Do you or anyone else have that verse?
You quoted,
"We are right with God in spite of our sin and the problems it causes in this world."
--> That is a fascinating idea. One way that such a thing could happen is, we could be held responsible for what we do rather than having our sins taken away. (If we are forced to turn all of our wrongs into rights, that would definitely make us 'right with God' in spite of what we have done. Would God be happy if we paid off all of our karmic debts in full -- refusing to let anyone forgive our sins?) Which brings us right back to that quote I think I remember seeing in Revelations.
I seem to remember a passage in Revelations about how we will be held responsible for what we do. It may have been a reference to Judgement Day. Do you or anyone else have that verse?
You quoted,
"We are right with God in spite of our sin and the problems it causes in this world."
--> That is a fascinating idea. One way that such a thing could happen is, we could be held responsible for what we do rather than having our sins taken away. (If we are forced to turn all of our wrongs into rights, that would definitely make us 'right with God' in spite of what we have done. Would God be happy if we paid off all of our karmic debts in full -- refusing to let anyone forgive our sins?) Which brings us right back to that quote I think I remember seeing in Revelations.
leastone
Well-Known Member
Rom 14:12 So each of us shall give account of himself to God.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.
So,
we must all,
each of us,
appear before the judgement seat of Christ;
to give an account of himself
(according to what he has done in the body) ---
so that each one
may receive good or evil,
according to what he has done in the body.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.
So,
we must all,
each of us,
appear before the judgement seat of Christ;
to give an account of himself
(according to what he has done in the body) ---
so that each one
may receive good or evil,
according to what he has done in the body.
Nick the Pilot
Well-Known Member
leastone,
Thank you for those verses. The Corinthians verse, especially, seems to be saying that we will held accountable for what we do, and that our actions cannot be forgiven.
Of course, I realize that some people will interpret this verse in another way.
Lunamoth, how do you interpret this Corinthians verse?
Thank you for those verses. The Corinthians verse, especially, seems to be saying that we will held accountable for what we do, and that our actions cannot be forgiven.
Of course, I realize that some people will interpret this verse in another way.
Lunamoth, how do you interpret this Corinthians verse?
lunamoth
Episcopalian
I'm responsible for my sin and God forgives my sin. I have no problem with apparent paradox. I trust God.
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Actually, I'll change that a bit because it's not really a paradox. I can be responsible for sin and forgiven for that sin at the same time. We do this all the time (or are called to do this) with each other.
Nick the Pilot
Well-Known Member
Lunamoth,
You have asked for an example of the outrageousness of Christianity, and I have supplied you with one. Thank you for responding to my posts.
You have asked for an example of the outrageousness of Christianity, and I have supplied you with one. Thank you for responding to my posts.
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Lunamoth,
You have asked for an example of the outrageousness of Christianity, and I have supplied you with one. Thank you for responding to my posts.
Fair enough Nick, but life is full of paradox whether you are talking about Christianity, science, or many other things.
Also, while I am happy to say to you 'namaste,' I really would prefer you not bow to me.
Nick the Pilot
Well-Known Member
I am sorry to hear that you are offended by the most important symbol of respect in the East. Shall we dance together?
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Not so. I said in my post that *namaste* is a welcome (and delightful) greeting/sign of respect. I encounter it often IRL from friends from East and West.
I've never encountered anyone getting on their knees in front of me and bowing their head to the floor in worship (or in simple greeting). That's all.
Nick the Pilot
Well-Known Member
That is the benefit of having an Internet -- we can have experiences that we could not have any other way.
I lived for many years in Asia, and it was a most fascinating experience. Asians may use a full bow when there seems to be a point of conflict between the two people. As I sense a point of conflict between the two of us, I find the use of a full bow quite appropriate.
I lived for many years in Asia, and it was a most fascinating experience. Asians may use a full bow when there seems to be a point of conflict between the two people. As I sense a point of conflict between the two of us, I find the use of a full bow quite appropriate.