Jealousy

[Netti-Netti]

from dictionary.com

identification

4.Psychology.

• a. a process by which one ascribes to oneself the qualities or characteristics of another person.
  [*]b.(in psychoanalytic theory) the transference or reaction to one person with the feelings or responses relevant to another, as the identification of a teacher with a parent.
  
  [*]c. perception of another as an extension of oneself.

I remember Vaj saying something about a being associating itself with the creator God cannot be the creator...hmm.

Jealousy may involve a process similar to aesthetic experiences in that the individual becomes like the person he/she is jealous of through a process of identification.

Buddhism talks about identifying dependent forms so that the self thinks it is these various transient experiences that go flitting by.

It's really late here. ...Gotta go.

 

[Dream]

The thing that seems unique about jealousy is that its focus is fairly specific - usually a limited field of objects: what other people have in the way of possessions, abilities, status, power, etc.

The long-term obsessive quality would manifest as an ongoing concern with establishing one's superiority or making an impression on the world. This preoccupation has been linked to a kind of paranoia. The paranoia derives from the fact that the person thinks everyone else is up to the same kind of thing (always trying to "best" others put them in their place, fool them, humiliate them etc.)

I think awareness of it changes it completely - as you found out.

Jealously shares some of the same emotional mixtures as zeal, but I think of zeal as a positive thing. Would zeal and jealousy compete for resources or would they strengthen each other? In my hand is a sword. Is it also a kitchen knife? When I sharpen one, do I sharpen both?

 

[seattlegal]

Jealously shares some of the same emotional mixtures as zeal, but I think of zeal as a positive thing.

Indeed, jealous and zealous are from the same etymological root:
From etymonline.com:

jealous c.1225, from O.Fr. gelos (12c., Fr. jaloux), from L.L. zelosus, from zelus "zeal," from Gk. zelos, sometimes "jealousy," but more often in a good sense ("emulation, rivalry, zeal"). See zeal. Among the ways to express this are Swed. svartsjuka, lit. "black-sick," from phrase bara svarta strumpor "wear black stockings," also "be jealous." Dan. skinsyg "jealous," lit. "skin-sick," is from skind "hide, skin" said to be explained by Swed. dial. expression fa skinn "receive a refusal in courtship."

"Most of the words for 'envy' ... had from the outset a hostile force, based on 'look at' (with malice), 'not love,' etc. Conversely, most of those which became distinctive terms for 'jealousy' were originally used also in a good sense, 'zeal, emulation.' " [Buck, pp.1138-9]​

zeal 1382, from L.L. zelus "zeal, emulation" (cf. O.Fr. zel, It. zelo, Sp. celo), a Church word, from Gk. zelos "zeal, ardor, jealousy," which is of uncertain origin. Zealous first recorded 1535.​

Would zeal and jealousy compete for resources or would they strengthen each other? In my hand is a sword. Is it also a kitchen knife? When I sharpen one, do I sharpen both?

If the jealousy/zeal is unconscious, I would suspect that they would manifest according to what's in your subconscious mind. Once you are conscious of the jealousy/zeal, you can make a conscious decision and effort regarding whether you wish to express this jealousy/zeal, and the manner in which you will if you choose to express it. Whatever choice you make will also have repercussions on the state of your subconscious mind, as well as any external/social repercussions it might have.

Your sword is obviously a double-edged one that cuts both ways. (Another reference to karma?)

 

[Dream]

I enjoyed the etymology.

If the jealousy/zeal is unconscious, I would suspect that they would manifest according to what's in your subconscious mind.

Yes, sort of like when someone has a crush and it blinds them in a way other people can see but they cannot. Its funny when that happens.

Once you are conscious of the jealousy/zeal, you can make a conscious decision and effort regarding whether you wish to express this jealousy/zeal, and the manner in which you will if you choose to express it.

I suppose you can channel it, but (using my crush example) sometimes it is something that lurks in the brain's folds. Awareness is not always simple. Who can manage to be constantly aware of his or her motivations?

Whatever choice you make will also have repercussions on the state of your subconscious mind, as well as any external/social repercussions it might have.

I think I understand what you mean. It is a little bit like programming, and I'll assume my subconcious (or anyone else's) believes in its own choices more than in passive experiences and arguments. Many times a day it reaches into historical choices to say to itself 'This is who I am'.

 

[seattlegal]

Awareness is not always simple. Who can manage to be constantly aware of his or her motivations?

If we always were, I suppose it would make it difficult to cope with reality. (Just registering all of the interconnected events that make up reality can be overwhelming to our conscious mind, much less knowing and understanding how we react to each and every one of them moment to moment.)

I think I understand what you mean. It is a little bit like programming, and I'll assume my subconcious (or anyone else's) believes in its own choices more than in passive experiences and arguments. Many times a day it reaches into historical choices to say to itself 'This is who I am'.

The garbage in / garbage out scenario?

 

[Netti-Netti]

Awareness is not always simple. Who can manage to be constantly aware of his or her motivations?

Some (most?) Buddhists would contend there is actually only one motivation because practice and daily life have only one goal. You'd think it wouldn't be too hard to keep sight of a singular motivation. Actually it is because spiritual feeling is subtle and ephemeral.

SG wrote:
you can make a conscious decision and effort regarding whether you wish to express this jealousy/zeal, and the manner in which you will if you choose to express it.

To provoke jealousy is a way to test commitment. But it's also a way to inflict suffering and, as such, it can be an expression of hatred.

At the same time, provokations of jealousy can be a way to demonstrate the ability to reject (i.e., the ability to choose one person over another), thereby asserting autonomy. Kind of like: "Hey girl, I don't need to be your house boy. Look at this honey I'm with." Or, "Hey dude, look at this hunky guy I'm with. As you can see, I've got other choices besides you. Heehee, let me to add to your insecurities and frustrations."

I'd say that this kind of aggressive stuff is defensive in the sense that it comes from a feeling of dependence that the person is uncomfortable with. Could be a fear of losing the relationship and acting preemptively to destroy it before it is taken away by the other person, thereby beating them to the punch, so the speak. See comment about paranoia. http://www.interfaith.org/forum/jealousy-9770.html#post165510

I think the Buddhists would encourage limit one's relationships to those that have spiritual value. They would say it is best to have a Dharma partnerships and keep the S&M to a minimum (friendly sarcasm or self- parodies and such).

 

[seattlegal]

Some (most?) Buddhists would contend there is actually only one motivation because practice and daily life have only one goal. You'd think it wouldn't be too hard to keep sight of a singular motivation. Actually it is because spiritual feeling is subtle and ephemeral.

...and is easily obscured by the five hindrances or poisoned by the kleshas.

To provoke jealousy is a way to test commitment. But it's also a way to inflict suffering and, as such, it can be an expression of hatred.

At the same time, provokations of jealousy can be a way to demonstrate the ability to reject (i.e., the ability to choose one person over another), thereby asserting autonomy. Kind of like: "Hey girl, I don't need to be your house boy. Look at this honey I'm with." Or, "Hey dude, look at this hunky guy I'm with. As you can see, I've got other choices besides you. Heehee, let me to add to your insecurities and frustrations."

I'd say that this kind of aggressive stuff is defensive in the sense that it comes from a feeling of dependence that the person is uncomfortable with. Could be a fear of losing the relationship and acting preemptively to destroy it before it is taken away by the other person, thereby beating them to the punch, so the speak. See comment about paranoia. http://www.interfaith.org/forum/jealousy-9770.html#post165510

Interesting that the intentional provoking of jealousy is an expression of hatred. It might be another factor in why jealousy can be so cruel.

Do you think this might have been a major driving force in the development of 'owning women' as means of ensuring monogamy (by the woman) in societies? (To avoid violent jealousies?)

I think the Buddhists would encourage limit one's relationships to those that have spiritual value. They would say it is best to have a Dharma partnerships and keep the S&M to a minimum (friendly sarcasm or self- parodies and such).

Indeed: Dhammapada XXIII: The Elephant

 

[Dream]

Do you think this might have been a major driving force in the development of 'owning women' as means of ensuring monogamy (by the woman) in societies? (To avoid violent jealousies?)

I think the real enabling force of men 'owning women' is motherhood -- not the driving force but a real catalyst for it. The mom's instinct takes precedence over everything else in her life, including jealousy. For a man, jealousy is a much bigger percentage of his heart. Jealousy has something to do with ownership, yet it wouldn't be enough by itself. Women can achieve freedom for succeeding generations of women but somehow not for themselves. They must rely on the previous generation's foresight. Overall, women are vulnerable and can easily slide back down the freedom scale into slavery. No cultural development is necessary for that to happen.

 

[Netti-Netti]

Once you are conscious of the jealousy/zeal, you can make a conscious decision and effort regarding whether you wish to express this jealousy/zeal, and the manner in which you will if you choose to express it.

Yes indeed. And you can also make a conscious decision as to whether you'll even experience the emotion of jealousy. Remember that emotions are a choice.

Do you think this might have been a major driving force in the development of 'owning women' as means of ensuring monogamy (by the woman) in societies? (To avoid violent jealousies?)

Could be, although polygamy seems like it's asking for trouble.

Maybe you're talking about possessiveness?.... To me what's interesting is that jealousy is centered on the jealous person's fear that other people are happier than the jealous person is and being angry because of a sense of lack or personal deprivation/dissatisfaction leading to hostility. In other words, jealousy is a special form of dukkha.

Jealousy and possessiveness would seem to be different things, though. A jealous person may not allow themselves to experience a impulse to control the other person, but nevertheless feel very jealous.

The focus of jealousy is the jealous person desire for greater happiness. Eve was jealous of G-d's powers and thought she would be happier than she already was if she, too, had those powers. Arguably, the serpent's tempting would not have worked on Eve without Eve's jealousy and desire to enhance her own happiness. In short, jealousy stems from an attachment to the illusion of being an autonomous self and the prideful belief that I don't need G-d because I can exercise the same powers that G-d can.

The Biblical G-d is portrayed as a jealous G-d. Is that a projection denial of human jealousy ?

A little off-topic here: it has been suggested that the people who crucified Jesus were jealous of him, were mad that G-d had chosen Jesus instead of them.

 

[Netti-Netti]

I think the real enabling force of men 'owning women' is motherhood -- not the driving force but a real catalyst for it. The mom's instinct takes precedence over everything else in her life, including jealousy. For a man, jealousy is a much bigger percentage of his heart.

I don't know if I agree with that. For one thing, jealousy seems very relationship oriented. Men can always resort to their hobbies and ability to control things in the socioeconomic realm to offset the feelings of lack and dissatisfaction that are associated with jealousy. Therefore jealousy would tend to be a small percentage of a man's heart.

I don't think jealous moms are an impossibility. The mother may begrude the father the happiness the father derives from his relationship with the child. A jealous mom might also be jealous of the child's happiness with the other parent. Apparently we learn about jealousy from these observations.

 

[seattlegal]

I was checking out how zeal is often related to devotion while jealousy is often associated with a loss of devotion, be it real or only suspected. Interesting.

 

[Dream]

Men can always resort to their hobbies and ability to control things in the socioeconomic realm to offset the feelings of lack and dissatisfaction that are associated with jealousy. Therefore jealousy would tend to be a small percentage of a man's heart.

All the more reason why jealousy does not account for men 'owning' their wives.

I don't think jealous moms are an impossibility. The mother may begrude the father the happiness the father derives from his relationship with the child. A jealous mom might also be jealous of the child's happiness with the other parent. Apparently we learn about jealousy from these observations.

I feel jealous when I'm losing at any competitive thing. I think its an illusion that the world is personally hostile towards us. Cars that won't start don't actually mean any harm. Kitchen cabinets don't purposely bump people in the head. Doors don't mean to stubb our toes and catch our fingers, but it seems like they do.

If I am losing a basketball game and I feel jealousy, how is devotion involved?

 

[seattlegal]

If I am losing a basketball game and I feel jealousy, how is devotion involved?

You are devoted to winning.

 

[Netti-Netti]

Dream wrote: If I am losing a basketball game and I feel jealousy, how is devotion involved?

Whereupon

seattlegal wrote: you are devoted to winning.

It could also be the fear of losing and begrudging the opponent victory.... at least if you go with these dictionary definitions: "zealous vigilance" or "apprehensive of loss of exclusive devotion" or "vigilant to guard a possession."

In other words, jealousy is a form of anticipatory anxiety that may become crystalized as more or less stable state of insecurity and suspicion involving negative expectation about attaining and maintaining the desired state of affairs. But it has an element of resentment and hostility to it - wanting the other person not to enjoy the desired object.

Recall that the Buddhists talk about being attached not only to the idea of a self but also to everything the person does to arrange the world in support of that idea of self - like piling up "victories." The level of commitment to having success would be in proportion to the extent to which the person defines him/herself in terms of that success.

Jealousy is a negative state of aspiration because the person defines him/herself largely in terms of what they lack, which they think others have, and in term of their resentment and hostility toward those who they think have it.

I'm sure you've heard of someone stealing a baby from someone they know. It might seem the person stole the baby just because they liked the idea of a satisfying mother-child relationship. However, there may be a string, aggressive jealous aspect in the sense that this individual did not want the actual mother to have the baby and in fact begrudged the mother her child and for that reason wanted to take the child away from her. According the dictionary: "hostile toward one believed to enjoy an advantage."

 

[Netti-Netti]

Yes, sort of like when someone has a crush ....

The zeal in jealousy derives from fear. You can see that in sibling rivalry, which is probably a classic model for jealousy.

Intense sibling rivalry often involves scared kids who think their quality of life will deteriorate as a result of losing their parent's affection. Arrival of a new baby is one possibility for this. But I think it can happen in any family context where parents either make a lot of comparisons between sibs or actually show favouritism or where the parents' love isn't unconditional (performance based).

 

[seattlegal]

The zeal in jealousy derives from fear. You can see that in sibling rivalry, which is probably a classic model for jealousy.

Intense sibling rivalry often involves scared kids who think their quality of life will deteriorate as a result of losing their parent's affection. Arrival of a new baby is one possibility for this. But I think it can happen in any family context where parents either make a lot of comparisons between sibs or actually show favouritism or where the parents' love isn't unconditional (performance based).

That reminds me of the story of Cain and Abel.