A question on Buddha

[VirtuousValkyrie]

I have a question about Buddha. I am taking a World Religions class in college and we talked about Buddhism for 4 classes. Now, Buddhists don't consider Buddha as any kind divinity, so I don't understand why Buddhists bow before his statue, or why there are huge statues of him all around in Asian countries? Can someone explain this to me I would greatly appreicate it! I apologize if this seems like a naive question, but I know very little about this religion and would like to know more!

 

[samabudhi]

It's not naive at all. It is an important, profound and commonly misunderstood issue, not to be taken at face value.

In the Far East, a lot of groups consider the Buddha to be a deitie. In India, the Hindus proselytised Buddhists, or would be Buddhists by including the Buddha in their pantheon. The Buddha was a man. This much is known. But through time and human falicy, the details became fuzzy.

An important point about Buddhism is the subject of definitions. What is something? Something is defined by its relationship with other things. So in Mahayana Buddhism we have what is called the Vajradhara Buddha(deity). This is the essence of the Buddha. The Buddha lived a long time ago, but his effects still last today, so according to our definition of reality, he still exists, not in his human form, but as various qualities (compassion, wisdom etc.)
The Dhyani Buddhas(deities) embody a quality, but Vajradhara is the most generic.

In areas where the nature of the Buddha is comprehended correctly, he is bowed to, not in worship, but in honour.

You know there's a brass statue of Beckam in Thailand or somewhere there. Does that mean he's a God? Worshipping him by the statue serves a purpose because it is their way of connecting to subtle emotions and thought movements which they could not otherwise do, since they are too insubstantial. Relate those thoughts to a symbol, statue, place in nature, or even colour (red for anger etc,) and one gains a lot more power over them. This is how Tantra works.

 

[Zazen]

point

virtuous, buddhist will prostrate before the buddha out of respect. respect being a simple way of putting karma into action. karma is a big aspect in eastern religion, therefore the good karma that we receive by prostrateing ourselves before a bodhisattva or the buddha will reflect upon ourselves

amitabha(pronouced amitofo, means buddha bless you!)

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste VV,


thank you for the post.

i think that Samabodhi and Zazen have done a good job in answering your query thus far.

just to contribute a bit to the discussion...

as Samabudhi alluded to, when the teachings are properly understood, the various statues of Buddha and others, are not bowed to nor venerated in and of themselves. rather, it is the ideal behind it, which the statues represent, that is given the fruit of our respect and veneration.

in a similar fashion, it is not statues of Mary and Jesus that are prayed to, rather, the statues help the adherent focus the mind on an aspect of Jesus or Mary which deepens the spiritual experience. it's not the statues, per se, rather, the ideal which the statues represent.

Zazen also touched on the concept of karma in the Buddhist tradition and how it relates to merit and so forth. as Buddhists believe in karma we strive, in our daily practice, to have more positive causes and conditions than negative ones. one of the ways in which we do this is by generating positive merit or, if you will, performing good deeds. in the context of Buddhism, a good deed can be a virtious or altrustic thought, thus, when a Buddhist bows and offers respect to a statue of Buddha, the Buddhist is affirming the comittment to seek refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha and of working for the enlightenment of all sentient beings.

this is actually quite a complex topic and i am happy that you broached it...

now.. interestingly enough... there were no images of the Buddha until the Bactarian Greeks arrived in the Subcontinent, roughly 300 years after the Buddhas Parinirvana.

 

[Zazen]

"Zazen also touched on the concept of karma in the Buddhist tradition and how it relates to merit and so forth. as Buddhists believe in karma we strive, in our daily practice, to have more positive causes and conditions than negative ones. one of the ways in which we do this is by generating positive merit or, if you will, performing good deeds. in the context of Buddhism, a good deed can be a virtious or altrustic thought, thus, when a Buddhist bows and offers respect to a statue of Buddha, the Buddhist is affirming the comittment to seek refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha and of working for the enlightenment of all sentient beings."

if i may also add, what is said above about a good deed being virtuous or altrustic is very much the same thing as working for the enlightenment of all sentient beings in that, they both refer to really the satori of the practitioner

also, something of interest i believe the buddha said teaching the principles of buddhism is the best deed we can do, to spread the dharma

 

[samabudhi]

Even the Muslims who are completely against idol worship do circles around a black box, the Kabbah. This is often a criticism made by other religions. So indeed, it is the meaning, the quality, not the box.

 

[iBrian]

the various statues of Buddha and others, are not bowed to nor venerated in and of themselves. rather, it is the ideal behind it, which the statues represent, that is given the fruit of our respect and veneration.

So would Buddhists bow down before statues of Jesus and Lao Zi? How about people such as Gandi and Martin Luther King, Jr?

 

[Zazen]

buddhist prostrate before buddhist figures because they have chosen buddhism as their spiritual refuge

personally a buddhist could bow before christ, krishna, chuang tzu or whomever..the act itself and the thought behind it are what matters the most, the respect given

anyway, something of interest, in the shaolin temple in NYC there is a mural on the wall of buddha, confucius and lao tzu

also, buddhists taoists and confucianists have shared ideas and such over history, so dont see why they shouldnt honor each other if they feel they need to do so..

something also of interest to note is that most TCMA(traditional chinese martial arts) schools will have altars for the lineage of the system or style and in the old days you were supposed to bow to the altar before and after leaving, course i usually just nod at the pictures even though im not even sure if anyone else does anything..

amitabha

 

[iBrian]

buddhist prostrate before buddhist figures because they have chosen buddhism as their spiritual refuge

Exactly - to an outside like myself it looks confusingly like a form of worshipping - only, under a different name.

For example, in Christian churches, people may bow and pray to statues of Jesus, or Mary, or any number of saints - it is *not* the statue that is the subject of the request, or the object of worship - it is a symbol of the Divinity being worshipped - ie, God, ie directly through Jesus, or indirectly through Mary, or the intercession of Saints, according to general Christian theology.

So when a Buddhist bows before a statue of Buddha, there is no claim made that the Buddhist is worshipping an object, but as with the theistic traditions, is simply using the statue (or other object) as a point of focus for a process of worship.

Which confuses myself. Isn't it said that we are all buddhas - only that we have not all realised this? And is there not a traditional story of the Buddha taking his followers into a forest, and grabbing a handful of leaves and declaring that this is all he knew, in comparison to the magnitude of the forest itself?

In which case, isn't it a Buddhist aspiration to be equal with the Buddha, rather than simply aspire to worship the Buddha??

 

[Zazen]

"So when a Buddhist bows before a statue of Buddha, there is no claim made that the Buddhist is worshipping an object, but as with the theistic traditions, is simply using the statue (or other object) as a point of focus for a process of worship.

Which confuses myself. Isn't it said that we are all buddhas - only that we have not all realised this? And is there not a traditional story of the Buddha taking his followers into a forest, and grabbing a handful of leaves and declaring that this is all he knew, in comparison to the magnitude of the forest itself?

In which case, isn't it a Buddhist aspiration to be equal with the Buddha, rather than simply aspire to worship the Buddha??"

when it is said we are all buddhas it is not meant we are all siddhartha. what we havent realised is our buddha nature. buddha meaning, enlightened one, we have not realised what we call our buddha nature or original face.

for example, in buddhism we say emptiness is form and form is emptiness. emptiness being characteristic of transcendental reality and form mundane reality.

therefore, if we seek to 'see' our original face, we are seeking to experience transcendental reality. transcendental reality is just a change of spiritual perspective in that we aspire to be free of concepts and perceptions that limit us to what we percieve as reality. thus, if we see our original face, we are no longer bound by dualisms in that we are experienceing reality transcendentally.

but therein lies the difference(which isnt a difference in the sense of the word)

experienceing transcendental reality doesnt mean being seperate from mundane reality, just as experienceing transcendental reality doesnt make us transcendental reality. we dont become transcendental reality we experience it, we cannot become what we already are, therefore to completely understand the concepts at hand we have to move beyond mundane dualistic reality, which limits us to understanding things on an intellectual level. moving beyond will allow us to move beyond perceptions and concepts, which will in turn lead our intuitive understanding to one of enlightenment of the ultimate truth, which is called many different things in many different traditions.

understand that the prostrateing of a buddhist is not one of subjugation but of honor and respect, therefore making it that much more important that we do not simply bow down before a MAN or an idol. men like martin luther king like you used above are not to be bowed down to, nor are idols. when we bow to statues of buddhas or bodhisattvas we are reaffirming our vows, and offering respect to the ones who came and went before us.

amitabha

 

[Vajradhara]

So would Buddhists bow down before statues of Jesus and Lao Zi? How about people such as Gandi and Martin Luther King, Jr?

Namaste Brian...

good question... let's discuss this...

the reason that a Buddhist displays respect and so forth to the various Buddhas and Bodhisattvas is due to the transforming effect the teaching of the Dharma has had on the Buddhist.

we could argue that Jesus, Martin Luther King, Jr. and Jesus didn't teach the Dharma... though we could probably present a strong case that they taught the same ideals and principles. Gandhi, indeed, taught the Dharma, though not in the same sense as the BuddhaDharma.

a Buddhist is a person that has, among other things, officially (i.e. taken vows and so forth) taken refuge in the Three Jewels, the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha. this fairly simple vow comits us to the path of awakening and inspires our practice.

we have to be somewhat general with our discussion as there are always individuals that believe and behave in ways that are seemingly contradictory to the teachings.

generally speaking, the Buddhist is prostrating to a statue of a Buddha or Bodhisattva to pay respect to the accomplishment of said Buddha or Bodhisattva and to acknowledge the lineage that has been passed unbroken from Shakyamuni Buddha to today.

moreover, these beings, Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, are usually ones with which the practiconer has some personal connection. for instance.. i have a very strong connection with Manjushri, the Bodhisattva of Wisdom.. and not so strong a connection with Varjasattva. my own alter consists of statues of Buddha Shakyamuni, Bodhisattvas Chenrezig and Manjushri, Jesus and Ho Tei. each of these statues represents an aspect of teaching that holds particular significance to my practice.

now... we come to an area in our discussion that we should broach to some extent. most Buddhists believe that we are, in essence, no different than the historical Buddha, the Bodhisattvas and so forth. there is, literally, no difference between us. yet, we certainly don't feel like the Buddha. how is this so?

this is tied to a concept called "shunyata" in Buddhism and is usually translated as "emptiness" in English. this is a poor choice of words, in my opinion, though English doesn't have many words that would work any better. perphaps, a more accurate meaning of the word "shunyata" is a term from maths, the "empty set". in any event... this is a critical aspect of the teachings that must be understood for this to make sense... if this isn't correctly grasped, the whole thing will seem to be confused and confusing.

this gets to another aspect of the teachings that we like to call the Two Truths... conventional and absolute. conventionally, we are differernt than the Buddha and Bodhisattvas... and from each other... absolutely, however, no distinctions can be made.

 

[samabudhi]

Exactly - to an outside like myself it looks confusingly like a form of worshipping - only, under a different name.

Buddhism always looks confusing to the outsider, just like any other subject of higher learning. Take trigonometry for instance. But to the mathematicians, it is perfectly logical and to society it has become invaluable.

Which confuses myself. Isn't it said that we are all buddhas - only that we have not all realised this? And is there not a traditional story of the Buddha taking his followers into a forest, and grabbing a handful of leaves and declaring that this is all he knew, in comparison to the magnitude of the forest itself?

In which case, isn't it a Buddhist aspiration to be equal with the Buddha, rather than simply aspire to worship the Buddha??

Yes. So how do you become one with something?

How does a child learn to speak? Through imitation. They watch the parent and copy. So we do the same. We watch the Buddha and copy. The historical Buddha is no longer with us, so we take the next best thing, a statue of him, which reminds us of all his traits we would like to inherit.

Similarly, by practising insight meditation (which is simply observing all phenomena), the practioner attempts to become one with his environment and bridge the divide which is the cause of all our suffering. We call this divide ignorance.

It is noteworthy that in Highest Tantra Yoga (The forth level of Tibetan Buddhist practice), their are two stages. The evolution stage and the completion stage. The evolution stage is simply mimicking and pretending the processes and results that are to be experienced in the completion stage. Without the evolution stage it very difficult to progress through the completion stage. It's like trying to find something and not knowing what it is. (Unfortunately I don't speak from personal experience here. Yet.)

So we know what we are looking for. The Buddha nature, and we remind ourselves of it all the time and that we are indeed one with it. In our daily practise in life, it then flows out from us because we identify with it.
If you think you are a criminal, you will do bad deeds. If you think you are a saint, you will do good deeds. There is no inherent distinction, it is just a state of mind.